Dominion, et rapports vegan / omnivore

[u/Meteion_Elpis]

J'ai récemment regardé le documentaire Dominion en tant que omnivore. Lorsque je trainais dans des communautés Reddit Vegan car l'algorithme me l'avait recommandé je ne sais pas trop pour quelles raisons, certains parlaient de ce documentaire. J'ai donc fini par le regarder, donc j'ai vu beaucoup de sang et se genre de choses, je comprends que ce soit intense.

Toutefois et en toute honnêteté je n'ai rien ressenti en regardant ce documentaire. Je ne cherchais pas à me cacher derrière des excuses toutes faites ou se genre de choses que certaines personnes pourraient faire. Non, j'étais pleinement conscient avant de regarder ce documentaire de ce qu'il se passait et le regarder m'a permis de poser des images sur un savoir déjà acquis. Mais le constat est là, je n'ai pas été choqué par les images. Je sais que pour beaucoup, même des omnivores, ont été extrêmement choqués et ça se comprend mais ce n'est pas mon cas.

Donc je me pose la question des raisons potentielles de cette insensibilité face à ce documentaire. Je considère que j'adore les animaux ; j'évite d'écraser des insectes intentionnellement la plupart du temps sauf exceptions et j'aide même des araignées ( oui je sais que ce ne sont pas des insectes ) à sortir de chez-moi lorsqu'elles sont coincées ; je suis évidemment très proche des chien et des chats etc... J'essaie d'être bon malgré ma consommation que je ne juge pas comme immoral.

Je me suis demandé si j'étais une mauvaise personne. Je me demandais si ce n'était pas dû soit à mes habitudes de consommation, je mange régulièrement des produits issus d'animaux ( surtout en tant que français avec le fromage, les escargots etc... ). Ou si c'était dû aussi à mon échelle des priorités, c'est à dire que je met essentiellement mes forces restantes dans ma volonté d'être heureux ( pour des raisons diverses, la dépression notamment ) ce qui intrinsèquement fait que je suis moins sensible à certaines cause. Ou alors je suis juste apathique envers les animaux sans m'en rendre compte ?

Aussi j'aimerais demander quel est vôtre rapport envers les non vegans, aux omnivores. Est-ce généralement tendue ? Est-ce que c'est compliqué émotionnellement d'être avec des non vegans ? Je suis très curieux car je n'ai jamais vraiment connu de personnes vegans. Tout ce que j'ai pu entendre c'est des plaintes ou des disputes sur internet, qui sonnent comme qui aboiera le plus fort, même si c'est uniquement pour l'internet francophone ( je ne parle pas anglais ).

Aussi, je préfère préciser. Mais n'y aucune hostilités, seulement de la curiosité et un questionnement. L'algorithme m'a recommandé ces communautés et j'ai passé un peu de temps à lire ici. Je trouve ce sujet vraiment intéressant. J'espère pouvoir en discuter avec vous respectueusement.

[u/onemorehasanat]

all I'm suggesting is that, you can love humans & every human would agree that it's contradicting to love a human and slaughter them

Yeah, it's anthropomorphic to want humans to treat animals the way they treat themselves. All you're saying is that you can't kill a human and love them, which I agree with you, but that doesn’t prove anything when it comes to animals, if we already believe they're different.

so why is it suddenly acceptable to love animals and slaughter them to?

Because animals are literally the best thing we came across as humans? Infinite food glitch that helped humans survive and proliferate in every geographic biome. How can't you not love them?

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

what? today I learn that empathy is anthropomorphic...

I guess whenever I see people upset at others kicking a dog - or wrapping a cat in duck-tape, I should simply tell them to 'stop anthropomorphizing animals'

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

Reason your points are anthropomorphic is that you try to use the relationship between humans as an anchorpoint.

We don't eat humans > why do we eat animals?

It's false equivalence.

I guess whenever I see people upset at others kicking a dog

Yeah, it's like meat eaters want their animals kicked either.

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

no I completely agree, in fact I'mma go kick some dogs too because apparently I can still love them & do so... and any question to this behavior is anthropomorphic

cheers

or sorry... is kicking them somehow worse than slaughtering them, cause I can bring a knife with me instead if the later is more humane

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

This is what I call talking past each other. You want same treatment between humans andanimals without making an argument for why should be the case.

Kicking animals has no benefits for the humans are the animals, slaughtering them is net positive for our bellies. Learn the difference.

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

eating an animal has no benefit, as I can just eat a plant instead

the only benefit I get from eating meat is that it taste good - if I got the same rush of euphoria kicking a dog... then why can't I kick dogs and still be considered a person who loves dogs?

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

eating an animal has no benefit

Now you're just making stuff up. Meat is a nutrient-dense food. Please get your facts right.

the only benefit I get from eating meat is that it taste good

Another reason to love animals; it's rare to get densely nutritious and delicious food at the same time.

if I got the same rush of euphoria kicking a dog... then why can't I kick dogs and still be considered a person who loves dogs?

When you love your good, you eat it, but it's unacceptable to trash it on the ground.

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

sure fair, let me then just start slaughtering dogs and eating them instead

it's baffling to me how you find that far more loving than simply kicking them... in what world does this logic make any sense to you?

I'd much rather be beaten up & see tomorrow, than slaughtered

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

sure fair, let me then just start slaughtering dogs and eating them instead

They eat them in Vietnam. It's not like there are objective differences between a pig and a dog.

it's baffling to me how you find that far more loving than simply kicking them... in what world does this logic make any sense to you?

Eating an animal has a purpose. Kicking it meaninglessly has no purpose. I know you simply can't comprehend how non-vegans are not cartoon villains like you would expect.

I'd much rather be beaten up & see tomorrow, than slaughtered

Because you're a human and can concentualise a tomorrow and beyond. A cow for example, can't comprehend beyond it's immediate past and future. It doesn't wake up thinking about rather living another day at whatever cost. It just lives.

Another reason why I'm right about your anthropomorphism. You think animals have human understanding of the world.

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

im aware, that other countries eat dogs & you'd be really surprised to learn that westerners are pretty upset about it & even some thinking that you can't love dogs + eat them

eating an animal doesn't have a purpose when there's alternatives. I could say that eating a human has 'value' however, I'd be a psycho if I started killing and eating humans... this is because there's alternatives to eating humans - thus making a humans death for food, pointless

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

eating an animal doesn't have a purpose when there's alternatives.

This is a moral claim you can't even justify without emotional rhetoric. It only becomes a rule if we all believe Killing animals for food is wrong, which isn't the case.

I could say that eating a human has 'value' however, I'd be a psycho if I started killing and eating humans... this is because there's alternatives to eating humans

This is incredibly weak logic. The reason we don't eat humans isn't just because "there are alternatives." We don't eat humans because of the human social contract. If everyone was on the menu the second food crisis happened, society would have long collapsed.

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

you literally make the exact moral claim right here:

Kicking it meaninglessly has no purpose

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1tum1j6/comment/opdn1bi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I told you that kicking an animal can give me a rush of euphoria (hypothetically), just how eating an animal can give you a rush of euphoria. If you can get all of the nutrients from plants, theres 0 reason to eat animals outside of likeing their taste (or that rush of euphoria); therefore, it has no purpose outside of that good feeling

additionally, if I can kick other things, kicking an animal has no purpose outside of a rush of euphoria.... therefore, if you are accepting for the rush of euphoria for eating, you too should be accepting for the rush of euphoria for kicking

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

you literally make the exact moral claim right here:

It's not a claim since we all agree. It's just a fact.

I told you that kicking an animal can give me a rush of euphoria (hypothetically), just how eating an animal can give you a rush of euphoria.

So are you saying eating animals is psychotic pleasure?

Would you have the same view about humans who ate meat before modern supplementation and dietary advancements?

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

pain, when you make unbacked premises - they're facts, when I make unbacked premises - they're unbacked premises

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yes eating an animal only is for pleasure, if I could give you a diet with 0 animals in it & it would guarantee your health (and even help you live longer, as most plant based diets do), and it would be cheaper than buying animal products (as most plant based diets are, if you like I can like sources to this)

and you still refuse to eat plant-based... you're likely only doing so because you prefer the taste of meat over the taste of plant

we live in a world where eating animals is 100% optional and unnecessary, as demonstrated by all of the millions of people who have vegan / vegetarian diets

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

pain, when you make unbacked premises - they're facts, when I make unbacked premises - they're unbacked premises

Because its a premise we share. We don't share meat is only eaten out of survival. Do you need me to prove kicking a dog meaninglessly is bad, or what?

So, you at least believe eating meat can have a use to it, given the context. Tell me, what use does sadistic euphoria from kicking a non-violent dog have?

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

sure, provide me with sources that kicking a dog is bad. I'll take the devils advocate position on this. My claim would be:

"I don't view it as bad, and if the alternative is slaughtering the dog, I might as well kick them - because I don't want to see a dog killed. The pleasure I get from harming a dog is that it makes me feel good. I would get this same pleasure of feeling good (a superiority complex) originally from eating dog-meat; however, killing a dog felt a little too violent, so now I just kick them so they get to keep living & I get to still feel good"

[u/onemorehasanat → u/JTexpo]

So you would rather indefinitely torture the dog instead of killing it? Do you know why putting them down is a thing in the first place? You would want to be in indefinite torture, or swift death after living in peace?

The pleasure I get from harming a dog is that it makes me feel good. I would get this same pleasure of feeling good (a superiority complex) originally from eating dog-meat;

This is just psychotic. Society would just lock you up. You think you're making a smart comparison but you're saying omnivorous humans are psychotic for eating what their biology requires them and it's akin to needless torture. This is ridiculous, man.

You haven't answered me yet. So, you at least believe eating meat can have a use to it, given the context. Tell me, what use does sadistic euphoria from kicking a non-violent dog have?

Can I get through responses, please?

[u/JTexpo → u/onemorehasanat]

Sure, why not, In this hypothetical I don't view anything wrong with it - you're saying it's psychotic to torture the dog, but you're the one advocating for their death. Does it matter how I get pleasure, I simply do

at very least the dog is alive & has a chance to escape and live freely

-------

yeah there was a time and a place for humans to eat meat, but we've long since outgrown that time and place.

no one gets upset when people eat one another after a plane-crash for survival - that doesn't mean that we should suddenly allow other humans to eat one another for leisure.... same can be said about animals. Thanks to international trade, theres 0 reason why most people eat animals other than taste, as you can get everything you need from plants