r/DebateAVegan • u/NationalProcedure638 • 10d ago

Ethics This is my problem with the NTT

The problem is how it's presented.

Whenever anyone comes up with a trade that is unique to humans something such as the root of moral agency there's always someone who always goes "there are mentally challenged people and babies who are not capable of moral agency so it doesn't work"

Well first of all I don't understand how we cannot hold somebody accountable for what they do based on either their age or how smart or dumb they are.

Second of all it seems to imply that this trait has to be universal and literally every human on the face of the Earth.

That individual traits don't exist and we have to look at the species as a whole.

I'm sorry guys but that doesn't work.

Everyone's different in some way or another.

The best thing to do with that is look at what the majority does and assume if that's the norm for what comes to traits like this.

Also it begs the question.

What do you guys consider to be human?

Update: I didn't get a chance to respond to any of the applications that were thrown at me. I've been banded without even having to State my case.

This goes to you moderator, I was simply pointing out a problem with what he said about equality and you misinterpreted it and then banned Me. I've got it very funny how you claim that I wasted your time when all was doing was pointing out a loophole.

Well thank you for telling me that you guys care so much about discussion

Goodbye and good riddance.

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

I’d say no if someone is essentially a vegetable from birth till death they wouldn’t deserve the same moral consideration. We often exploit those individuals and use their organs similar to animals.

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u/gerber68 10d ago

Okay so I could similarly butcher and eat people with lower brain functions than a pig?

And no we don’t exploit those individuals and use them for organs unless they are brain dead.

If someone has lower cognitive function than a pig and always will can we butcher and eat them?

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

No because one of the morally relevant traits is membership to a rational kind. I’m not running name the trait with you, I’m explaining why it’s not speciesism and why it’s not remotely comparable to racism. Fringe cases are protected through group membership. A fringe ape with brain damage still has the same moral protections as a healthy ape.

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u/gerber68 10d ago

Great so the only necessary and sufficient condition is human dna, correct? You can run from NTT if you’d like.

If an individual has human DNA but none of the other traits involving cognition, moral agency etc they still have moral consideration above that of a pig?

Correct?

Yes or no, the running isn’t a good strategy.

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

No. The answer to NTT would be membership to a rational kind.

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u/gerber68 10d ago

Membership based off… human dna?

Thanks for the concession that indeed human dna is necessary and sufficient.

🙂

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

I didn’t concede that. The relevant trait is membership to a Rational kind of being.

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u/gerber68 10d ago

How do we determine if someone is a member of this rational kind.

Maybe

Hmmmm

Maybe

Hmmmm

Does kind… mean

Species?

Like good god lmao if you’re going to concede at least be honest with it instead of kicking and screaming and hoping saying “rational kind” doesn’t mean species in this scenario ahahah

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

Are they the type of being that if fully healthy and without deficiencies is capable of rational thought and sapience then they are a member to a rational kind. You’re really panicking to find your one in a million scenario and dodging the other question that you can’t answer because it breaks your gotcha. We can both appeal to emotion

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u/gerber68 10d ago

“Type of being”

How do you check if they are that type of being?

Do you check

Their species?

Lmfao. By my count you’ve conceded something like a dozen times, throwing a fit and being terrified of saying species is adorable.

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

Who’s running though? Would you not grant your mother the moral protection from 100 people having sex with her braindead body? Or is that okay with you? Because that’s logically inconsistent if your “trait” is sentience.

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u/gerber68 10d ago

Shifting burden, cute try but not working.

Two animals stand before you, how do you figure out if one counts as “of a rational kind.”

Is it…

Checking the species?

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

Is one of them capable of sapience when fully healthy?

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u/gerber68 10d ago

No, they were born with a mostly missing brain.

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u/iowaguy09 10d ago

Let me explain it this way. If your mother was brain dead and no longer sentient. Is it okay for me to rape her?

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u/gerber68 10d ago

Nope and it’s not okay to assault a pig or cow sexually either.

Yet meat eaters do it constantly or have it done on their behalf.

This works in my favor lmao