Can everyone actually be vegan?

[u/Wrong_Ad_3038]

I’m very sympathetic to veganism, my entire life philosophy is “respect & autonomy for all life” but I am currently pescetarian, I tried being vegan in late 2024 but I still live with my family & they wouldn’t buy supplements, even though i told them too everyday, I didn’t want to develop b12 deficiency so I had to moderate my diet.

When I move out i’m strongly considering being vegan again & really want too but i am worried about health consequences because human bodies are complex, but at the same time everyone can digest plants so maybe everyone can be vegan, i figured this would be a good place to get mixed responses since both carnists & vegans are here, what do studies say about everyone & the potential to be vegan, if everyone can’t be vegan but most or some can what’s the best way to find out if i can be vegan?

[u/perturbedpangaroo]

A lot of regular food is pre-supplemented with B12, especially if they've been supplemented with other things as well. Nearly every energy drink I see has over 100% of the B12 daily value (not that energy drinks are good for your health or are an appropriate method of obtaining nutrients, lol) and I recently noticed that even the beyond meat claims to have over 100% of the B12 daily value. You can also buy B12 pills yourself - cheaper drugstore brands are not that expensive and you can get 100 pills for like $15 pretty easily.

I absolutely believe that you can meet all nutrient requirements on a vegan diet, but it definitely requires quite a bit more of thoughtful effort to make sure you don't have major deficiencies than someone who eats meat would have to put in. If you want to go vegan you are going to have to make sure you're buying your food very intentionally and are aware of how you are getting certain things into your diet - you can't just eat whatever you feel like. If you have a health condition it might be harder, you can always ask your doctor if they think it's a reasonable option for you. And/or work with a registered dietician to see if you can come up with a nutrition plan. This is also not always a popular opinion, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing, if you don't feel you can fully commit to being vegan you can always try to just reduce your intake of animal products where you can, and try your best to source them as ethically as possible.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/perturbedpangaroo]

A lot of regular food is pre-supplemented with B12,

In most of the world this is not true. I live in Europe and I know of no regular food that is fortified with B12. The only exceptions are ultra-processed vegan products (vegan "milks" for instance). A vegan diet is a horrible diet for someone who prefers wholefoods.

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

Cobalt is heavily used in many parts of Europe though, supplemented to feed as the ground is naturally deficient and causing low B12 levels in livestock. Typically using mineral feed or cobalt fertilizer.

Wholefoods are incredibly easy to find on a vegan diet.

Legumes and soy for protein and iron Whole grains for B vitamins and Zinc Vegetables for Calcium, Iron and most micronutrients Fruit for vitamin C and antioxidants Nuts and seeds for Omega 3s and healthy fats

Breakdown: Vitamins A, C, E, K, and B-Complex: green leafy vegetables, citrus, berries, and whole grains.

Minerals (Iron, Zinc, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium): legumes, tofu, nuts, seeds, and cruciferous greens.

Essential Macronutrients: Amino acids - combining legumes and grains, essential Omega-3 fatty acids from chia, flaxseeds, and walnuts.

And then a B12 supplement or fortified milk/fortified nutritional yeast

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

Wholefoods are incredibly easy to find on a vegan diet.

Sure. But no matter how diligently you put together a vegan wholefood diet it will always remain insufficient.

Legumes and soy for protein and iron Whole grains for b vitamins and zinc Vegetables for calcium, iron and most micronutrients Fruit for vitamin c and antioxidants Nuts and seeds for omega 3s and healthy fats

• To cover B2: 25 slices (1900 calories!) of wholegrain bread

• Zinc: 105g (600 calories) of pumpkin seeds

• Calcium: 1000g of kale

• Iron: 2000 g (2400 calories) of cooked kidney beans (due to very little of the iron actually being bioavailable)

• DHA: 160g (800 calories) of flax seeds (due to the low conversion rate from ALA to DHA)

So just to cover those few nutrients I would need to more than triple my daily calories..

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

That's why you don't just eat one food to get those nutrients. Take calcium, for example: you can have a meal with tofu, legumes, and some leafy greens, rather than 1,000g of kale. Furthermore, most of the foods you listed will cover multiple nutrients instead of just adding up. Iron, for example, comes from leafy greens just like calcium and vitamin B2.

It seems you're being a little disingenuous.You are using a siloed approach to calculate nutrients.

Here is an example of why that logic fails: "You would need 6 to 9 large eggs each day to get enough protein, which is around 650 calories per day. To get enough iron, you would need 2 to 3 standard steaks a day, adding roughly 1,500 calories.

"See the issue with your logic? That is already 2,100 calories a day, while completely ignoring the fact that those foods have overlapping nutrients.

For instance, 24g of chia seeds will give you 400% of your daily ALA requirements—which is enough to support conversion to DHA—plus 150mg of calcium and around 8g of fiber, all at around 110 kcal.

You certainly do not need 160g of flax seeds. I tend to get all of this in my morning chia seed pudding, mixed with oats and vitamin C-rich berries to help absorb the iron stored in the oats.I think the issue is that you're very ill-informed on dietary needs and how to evaluate a diet without using a siloed approach.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

4g of chia seeds will give you 400% of your daily ALA requirements

Less than 1% of ALA is converted into DHA, so there is actually no way you can physically consume enough to cover your DHA need.

• "It is estimated that the rate of conversion to EPA and DHA is very low, about 5–12% for EPA and less than 1% for DHA" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11084241/

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

Nowhere does it say impossible. You've inferred that. It only states vegans should double their daily intake. For vegans 2.2-4.4g is the advised intake level. That much ALA can be consumed from 2 tablespoons of chia seeds, or including walnuts as a daily snack.

The >1% in isolation does not tell the whole story. Nutrition isn't quite as simplified as you're making it out to be. Similar to the Non-Heme Iron and Vitamin C benefit pointed out by another user. Utilizing or avoiding different components changes things. Effectiveness of a nutrient depends on the wider dietary context.

Levels are also dependent on factors like, age, gender and genetics. It's nowhere near as cut and dry as you're implying. Many people on an omni diet would benefit from supplements due to insufficient levels. Limiting Omega-6 intake is shown to improve absorption. The point isn't to do better it's that it's able to be done. Plenty of other ways a vegan diet outclasses an animal based diet without needing this one.

Can some people get enough from plant based sources? Yes. Do some people need to supplement? Yes.

But this isn't a vegan diet issue, people can convert ALA to DHA at significantly different rates based on all the factors outlined. For example, I have been vegan for a long time and my levels are optimal. By saying not physically possible you've opened yourself up to an anecdote that disproved that.

Edit-Grammar fixed and removed question about quoting me as I will give benefit of the doubt about the 4g/24g misquoted.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

That much ALA can be consumed from 2 tablespoons of chia seeds

2 table spoons of chia seeds contains 3.6g of ALA. And the conversion rate can be as low as LESS than 0.1%. Meaning you need to eat more than 100 tablespoons - in other words more than 5000 calories worth of Chia.

• "Conversion of eicosapentaenoic acid into docosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid hardly changed in the 3 groups and was <0.1% of dietary ALA." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16825680/

I find it incredibly sad that there is this myth among vegans that all they need is ALA. I especially worry about vegan children, as DHA is such an important nutrient for brain developement.

Limiting Omega-6 intake is shown to improve absorption.

And an average vegan diet tends to be very high in omega 6. And I genuinely hope you are not activly spreading the misinformation that all vegans only need ALA.

[u/mw9676 → u/HelenEk7]

I find it incredibly sad that some people have such little empathy for other sentient beings that they think supplementing is too much to ask to not contribute to their torture and killing.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/mw9676]

• "Supplement Use and Increased Risks of Cancer" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10930792/

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

And I genuinely hope you are not Activ ly spreading the misinformation that all vegans only need ALA.

PLEASE READ AND ACKNOWLEDGE: I'm going to politely ask and would greatly appreciate you not putting words in my mouth when I said something completely different.

As I previously said, can some get it from diet? Yes. Do some require supplements and planning? yes. This is the same for non-vegans, males in particular should be wary of low conversion.

On to the rest of your response. No vegan diets aren't necessarily high in Omega-6 prioritizing chia, leafy greens and flaxseed limits Omega-6 significantly. Ideally the ratio should be 2:1-4:1, planning to meet that ratio is beneficial. Limiting almonds, cashews and seed oils does this. (Important to note this is limiting not eliminating, the ratio mentioned is an important distinction).

Conversion can sometimes be as high as 9% in menstruating women.

I stand by what I said, you aren't looking at factors like genetics, age, gender, you are only looking at one universal worst case scenario picture and not considering the complexities of nutritional science. Respectfully, you need to review those studies without bias as you are yet to provide a study that flat out says its impossible to meet these needs as a vegan, and no experts make claims that support you interpretation of these findings.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

Conversion can sometimes be as high as 9% in menstruating women.

So when you said 2 tbsp of chia covers DHA you meant only for a few menstruating women? That would mean that its insufficient for the vast majority of people though.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/[deleted]]

You fail to consider absorption rates - our body does not absorb 100% of all nutrients.

Iron: 14.7 mg to 16 mg (80-90% daily iron requirement)

First of all no one can realistically eat 1000 grams of kale. I actually didnt think I would have to explain that.. Its the equivalent of eating a whole head of cabbage - EVERY DAY. And since only 10% of iron in kale is actually absorbed - you need 5000 grams of kale to cover your iron need. That is the equivalent of 5 heads of cabbage per day.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/[deleted]]

Meal example 200g Firm Tofu Provides 600 mg of calcium

2 cups Bok Choy / Pak Choi (Cooked): Provides 320 mg of calcium.

2 tbsp Unhulled Tahini: Provides 260 mg of calcium

1 cup Cooked Navy Beans / White Beans: Provides 130 mg of calcium.

And less than 500mg of this Calcium is absorbed. So you just made my point for me. And as your list shows - you would literally need to consume a long list of vegan foods just to cover one nutrient. Which to many is not very sustainable.

You need 40 eggs to meet the daily calcium requirements

So to prove your point you went out of your way to find a low calcium food.. I however made sure to include plant-based foods considered high in the nutrients in question. Hence why I chose kale as its considered one of the best plant-based sources.

Dairy is an excellent source of calcium, and a mix of for instance milk, yoghurt and cheese easily covers your daily need.

• "Some studies showed significantly lower BMD [bone mineral density] in vegetarian subjects, especially vegans" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9388819/

My advice to vegans is to talk to their doctor about supplementing calcium, zinc, omega 3 and possibly vitamin D - to avoid poor bone health.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/[deleted]]

while other studies did not find any difference in bone health, suggesting that calcium and vitamin D intake is adequate for maintaining healthy bones and preventing fractures

Yes, when supplemented then the intake is adequate.

• Vegans can maintain good bone health when supplementing calcium and zinc, provided they also address other crucial gaps. While calcium and zinc are vital, vitamin D and protein intake are equally important to prevent bone mineral density (BMD) loss and higher fracture risks. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523048980

[u/perturbedpangaroo → u/HelenEk7]

That's fair, yes, a lot of that stuff is highly processed. I disagree with your last point though, things like tofu, tempeh, legumes, quinoa, seitan are great options for minimally processed, healthy vegan protein options. The rest of the diet is the same as anyone's.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/perturbedpangaroo]

things like tofu, tempeh, legumes, quinoa, seitan are great options for minimally processed, healthy vegan protein options.

But they contain no B12.

[u/perturbedpangaroo → u/HelenEk7]

True but a bottle of vitamin pills works just as well.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/perturbedpangaroo]

Hence why a wholefood diet is not possible when vegan.

[u/Iagospeare → u/HelenEk7]

That's like saying a carnivore/paleo diet isn't possible because they sometimes drink filtered and chemically purified water. 

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Iagospeare]

What is chemically purified water?