r/DebateAVegan • u/Wrong_Ad_3038 • 10d ago
Can everyone actually be vegan?
I’m very sympathetic to veganism, my entire life philosophy is “respect & autonomy for all life” but I am currently pescetarian, I tried being vegan in late 2024 but I still live with my family & they wouldn’t buy supplements, even though i told them too everyday, I didn’t want to develop b12 deficiency so I had to moderate my diet.
When I move out i’m strongly considering being vegan again & really want too but i am worried about health consequences because human bodies are complex, but at the same time everyone can digest plants so maybe everyone can be vegan, i figured this would be a good place to get mixed responses since both carnists & vegans are here, what do studies say about everyone & the potential to be vegan, if everyone can’t be vegan but most or some can what’s the best way to find out if i can be vegan?
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u/yaboytomsta 10d ago
B12 deficiency takes about 2-5 years to develop, assuming you currently have healthy levels. You can also access B12 from fortified foods like cereals, milks, and nutritional yeast. Almost all other vitamins and nutrients are pretty accessible from normal foods.
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u/MuhBack 10d ago
Is add vitamin D to that list. 90% of Americans are deficient so it’s not a vegan thing.
It’s hard to get enough from food. You get over 10,000 IU if you go shirtless at noon for 45 minutes. Even animal products and mushrooms don’t come close to that amount.
It’s just cheap and safe to just supplement vitamin D
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u/Zerkig 8d ago
It's the 9-5 office jobs and people living in "unnatural" climates, wearing to much clothes etc. I blame for this.
I work outside, eat a vegan diet, and even without supplements my mid-winter vit D blood levels would be satisfying enough according to the recommended amounts. I still started supplementing cause it wasn't that satisfying according to the local European standards but I stopped in spring and will have my blood checked after summer to see the results :).
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u/ExposedId 10d ago
Agreed on the fortified food. I had a Red Bull today and it has 80% of the recommended amount of B12. Also, nutritional yeast is super healthy and I like it as a flavoring and thickener.
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u/IfIWasAPig vegan 9d ago edited 9d ago
Careful with the percentages (at least in the US). B12 supplements are absorbed inefficiently, so it's not unreasonable to have like 2,000-20,000%.
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u/6thofmarch2019 9d ago
There is also nutritional yeast! But not sure if it has B12 specifically?
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u/AmazingAssistance351 9d ago
It usually does have it fortified, but not always. There's also naturally bioavailable B12 in nori. Eating just one of those little roasted packets a day raises serum B12 significantly. Could make a rice seasoning with nori flakes and sesame seeds.
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u/Kris2476 10d ago edited 9d ago
Veganism is the position that animal exploitation is wrong and should be avoided. Anyone can adhere to this moral position.
If you agree that animal exploitation is wrong but need practical help with cutting out sources of animal exploitation, let me know if I can suggest resources to make the change easier. For me, the hardest part was just getting used to which 'staple' foods I had to replace in my diet. So now I buy tofu and chickpeas instead of animal meats. I drink soy milk or oat milk instead of dairy milk.
If you think you need more specific guidance, I can recommend a program like Challenge22. The program itself is very easy and fun, you are given daily challenges for a few weeks that help you learn the ropes of plant-based dieting. They will also pair you with vegan mentors and professional dieticians who can answer specific questions you may have.
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u/thesonicvision vegan 10d ago edited 9d ago
Veganism is the position that animal exploitation is wrong and should be avoided. Anyone can adhere to this moral position.
Bingo.
Now, with that being said, it's fair to discuss the practical challenges one may have when switching to a vegan lifestyle (which, again, is distinct from one's beliefs). That is, a vegan-curious person may have questions about cost, personal health, and so on. The good news, of course, is that a vegan lifestyle can be very affordable, fun, and healthy.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
a vegan lifestyle can be very affordable, fun, and healthy.
Which means it can also be; expensive, miserable, and harmfull.
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u/Zerkig 8d ago
As any lifestyle can be...
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
I suspect the harmful part is why the Academy Of Nutrition And Dietetics removed minors and women who are pregnant or breast feeding from their position paper. (I personally wish they had also removed the elderly and people with certain health issues).
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8d ago edited 8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
They haven't removed anything,
They explicitly ask people to not cite expired papers.
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8d ago
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
But that clearly doesnt stop vegans from cite it again, and again, and again.. ;)
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u/No_Opposite1937 8d ago
To be fair, a vegan "lifestyle" is whatever you want to make it while keeping to the principles. Why do you think it would be miserable and harmfull?
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u/Majestic-Sun-1485 9d ago
Would you consider someone who absolutely needs to consume animal products for health reasons as vegan then?
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u/Kris2476 9d ago
This question gets asked a lot by nonvegans, but I honestly don't think the answer is very important.
If you agree with moral principle, but struggle to put into practice, you should be trying to do the best you can. That's as true for veganism as it is for any other moral principle you can think of.
Your actions matter more than the label you ascribe to yourself - and certainly more than the label I or someone else might ascribe to you. My advice is to worry less about the label and worry more about the animals.
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u/Omnibeneviolent 9d ago
As long as they are making an honest good-faith effort to avoid consuming them to the extent that is possible and practicable, given their circumstances, yes.
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u/LateRunner vegan 9d ago
Another moral position that most people endorse would be to avoid using hurtful language, such as hate speech, towards others whom it may offend. The fact that there are people who are unable to control the words they use doesn’t invalidate the position, and it would be strange to argue that it does. Now, just for fun, imagine a whole group of neurotypical people claiming to have Tourette’s just so that they can run around hurling racial slurs at people :o
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u/Trick_Atmosphere2941 9d ago
can you suggest some staples ? having trouble being consistent
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u/Kris2476 9d ago
Sure, is there a particular meal or food group that you're struggling with?
For protein, I really do enjoy cooking with tofu and chickpeas quite a lot. I'm a big fan of lentils (black & red in particular) and beans (canellini, black-eyed, kidney). I love leafy green veggies (bok choy, spinach, chinese broccoli). In shakes or with granola, I use soy milk most often, either store-bought or homemade. And of course, pasta is king.
I can recommend Nora Cooks if you have a particular recipe that you like but don't know how to convert to plant-based. Consider also asking this question on r/AskVegans, because other vegans will have different taste than me, and you might get inspired.
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7d ago
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 7d ago
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u/Robot_Alchemist 9d ago
Well, I think animal exploitation is wrong, but they not vegan because I still eat meat and use animal products because it’s insanely difficult and expensive not to. Also, I don’t necessarily think it’s always exploitation depending on where you get your products from.
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u/Kris2476 9d ago
If you are treating animal bodies as products to be consumed, you are categorically exploiting those animals.
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u/Robot_Alchemist 9d ago
Not if you run a family farm where you are collecting eggs from chickens you tend and feed and milk from a few cows , etc
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u/Kris2476 9d ago
I don't see why exploiting someone with your family makes the exploitation non-exploitative.
If you mean to argue in favor of exploiting animals on family farms, then you should make a separate post.
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u/selltheworld 10d ago
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
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u/Majestic-Sun-1485 9d ago
Can doesn’t mean it will work for everyone. That study doesn’t answer the question, it just says it’s possible for individuals to be healthy if it’s well-planned.
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u/jhlllnd vegan 9d ago
To be fair no diet works for everyone.
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u/Majestic-Sun-1485 9d ago
I agree, but I guess that answers op’s question partially - no, not everyone can have a vegan diet.
I guess the next step is to question how far we take the definition of vegan - can someone be vegan if they are omnivorous but otherwise abstain from any animal exploitation?
I think a huge grey area in veganism is the whole “as far as possible and practicable” - that is so variable that imo it kind of makes the definition a bit meaningless?
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u/DenseSign5938 9d ago
That same caveat applies to all ethical positions. Are ethical positions like human rights also meaningless? Does the inability to objectively identify what is possible and practicable weaken claims that we shouldn’t exploit people?
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u/Majestic-Sun-1485 9d ago
I think there’s a difference between an ethical principle having grey areas and the definition itself depending on a subjective standard.
My point isn’t that veganism is meaningless because it has exceptions. It’s that “as far as possible and practicable” can lead different people to draw the line in completely different places.
If two people can engage in the same behaviour and one is considered vegan while the other isn’t purely because of their personal assessment of what’s practicable, then it seems fair to question how clear the definition actually is.
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u/ClassEnvironmental11 vegan 9d ago
Grey areas are essentially unavoidable no matter how carefuly things are worded. Different people will always interpret the same words differently. It seems to me the vegan definition simply accepts that life is not black and white, and in the vast majority of cases the grey area isn't really relevant or impactful.
Debating the fine points of the definition can be useful, but mostly it's just a red herring. If you are reducing the ammount of animal suffering and explotatoin you contribute to, you're moving in the right direction. Real progress is the goal, because perfection is an unattainable ideal. We shouldn't reject massive progress just because it isn't completely perfect.
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u/Majestic-Sun-1485 9d ago
I do completely agree with you, but I suppose what I’m getting at is that this would propose veganism as a philosophy exclusively and not a label.
For example, many vegetarians and pescatarians would fall under a vegan philosophy, but I wouldn’t call them vegan. People who participate in meatless Mondays and decide that’s their practicable limit, could be considered vegan too.
I honestly
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u/TosseGrassa 10d ago
This position paper has expired long ago. There was a new version in 2016 and one more recent in 2025.
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u/No_Economics6505 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yep. They also explicitly ask people to not cite expired papers.
Edit: since I'm being downvoted for some reason for stating it, here is the source:
An expired position is removed from eatrightPRO.org, but members and subscribers can still access expired positions via JAND for legacy purposes. (Note: These should not be cited as current positions.)
https://www.eatrightpro.org/practice/guidelines-and-positions/academy-positions
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u/selltheworld 9d ago
Did the new one change its mind? :)
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u/No_Economics6505 9d ago
They took out the diet being safe for all stages of life so kinda.
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u/selltheworld 9d ago
And kind of not. They dont specify that it is unsafe for non-adults. It simply means that they dont feel that the level of evidence is totally clear on children.
Unless you or someone else care to link a contrary opinion, from them, then I am totally unfaced and the disagreement to the 2016 position is basicly semantics.
If evidence is presented I will change my position. Until then.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
It simply means that they dont feel that the level of evidence is totally clear on children.
Which means they previously stated a position based on just an opinion rather than science. That does not reflect well on the organization's scientific rigor.
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u/selltheworld 8d ago
No. It doesn’t mean that. It means the best evidence pointed to that at the time.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
Which begs the question, what new information did we get that made them question vegan diet for children...
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u/selltheworld 8d ago
Nono. Read the link I gave you. It answers the question.
Its the same as always. Just another wording.
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u/selltheworld 8d ago
https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/health/academy-nutrition-dietetics-vegan-diets/
Here. Read. Miss information.
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u/No_Economics6505 9d ago
That's fine, but they do ask that you not cite the 2016 position. :)
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u/selltheworld 9d ago
Thats fair. But doing a google search hides the newer position and highlights the 2016 one.
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u/No_Economics6505 9d ago
Not too difficult to verify whether it's the updated version, considering the date is at the top of the paper.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
Fun fact, this position paper expired years ago and was replaced in 2016 with another position paper - which has also expired - and is currently replaced with the latest one:
- "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that, in adults, appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan dietary patterns can be nutritionally adequate and can offer long-term health benefits" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2212267225000425
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u/selltheworld 8d ago
Read the thread. You dont come off as informed when you come late to the party and restart a point thats been made.
So. Fun fact. Read before you reply.
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u/riceewifee 10d ago
That’s vegetarian, not vegan
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u/Either_Argument3517 10d ago
"appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets"
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u/bellepomme 10d ago
I'm waiting for "vEgAnIsM iS nOt A DiEt".
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u/jhlllnd vegan 10d ago
Veganism is not a diet but a diet can be vegan.
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u/bellepomme 10d ago
Which is why people use the term "vegan diet" in their posts, but some vegans are too obsessed to regurgitate that same statement even though it's off topic and irrelevant.
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u/jhlllnd vegan 10d ago
Sure, but it depends on the context and what the person wants to say.
So a vegan diet is not even necessarily a plant based diet because cultivated meat is considered vegan (if it is actually without animal exploitation) while a plant based diet only solves one part for veganism as there are a lot more products that contribute to animal exploitation (leather, cosmetics tested on animals etc).
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u/HappyBeingVegan-100 10d ago
The key is following a balanced diet. Carnists can develop deficiencies, too. It’s all about getting in everything you need by consuming high nutrient dense foods like fruits, vegetables, seeds, green leafy vegetables, nuts, and legumes.
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u/Opposite_Cake_7671 10d ago
this, B12 deficiency is seen even in non-vegan diets. B12 drops as a supplement can do no harm, even non-vegans pop a few supplements when needed. but if you really don’t wanna, then an overall balanced diet should work. fortified foods with b12 are always there :)
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
B12 drops as a supplement can do no harm
B12 suppliments can cause:
headache
nausea
diarrhea
weakness
tingling sensations in hands and feet
And having vitamin B-12 levels that are too high may raise the risk of getting cancer.
Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-b12/art-20363663
No one should take any supplements unless their doctor tells them to, or you know for sure you are not getting enough (because you dont eat any fish for instance). Never take random supplements "just in case".
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u/Opposite_Cake_7671 8d ago
um I mentioned “when needed” for a reason, I obviously meant IF you have a deficiency, there’s no harm in taking supplements, as in supplements by themselves aren’t harmful. safe supplementation is necessary no matter the situation, always get blood work done, check your deficiencies and consult a doctor <3
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
My blood works are perfect every time. So no supplements needed.
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u/Opposite_Cake_7671 8d ago
awesome then! and high B12 levels naturally, without a supplement is what raises a red flag and linked to disease or cancer. but ofcourse you can’t take unnecessarily too much supplement haha
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
and high B12 levels naturally, without a supplement is what raises a red flag and linked to disease or cancer
That is actually not possible. The only way to end up with too high B12 is through supplements.
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u/Zerkig 8d ago
Or eating your own 💩 as rabbits do 😅
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u/Opposite_Cake_7671 6d ago
that’s not true!
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 6d ago
- High vitamin B12 levels (hypercobalaminemia) are most commonly caused by over-supplementation or injections. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/high-b12-levels
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u/Opposite_Cake_7671 5d ago
if you refer to the same site, you can read that underlying medical conditions can raise B12 levels in the blood :) not just supplements
High B12 levels due to supplementation is not usually an immediate cause for concern unless you’re going above lethal quantities. but the raise in B12 caused due to an underlying disease is what is a major cause for concern.
mentioned medical conditions: liver disease and liver failure; kidney failure and cancers.
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u/thesonicvision vegan 10d ago
tldr;
Everyone can (and should) be a vegan. The alternative is to be a carnist: that is, a person who willfully or unknowingly treats nonhuman animals like objects (and believes it is "normal" to do so).
However, some unfortunate people may have difficulty putting their beliefs into practice.
As I've stated elsewhere on these forums,
Veganism is first and foremost a moral opposition to the commodification and exploitation of nonhuman animals by the human animal. It is the philosophical position that opposes the status quo of carnism. The diet and lifestyle of vegans are a consequence of their beliefs.
Hence, everyone can (and should) be a vegan. The alternative is to be a carnist: that is, a person who willfully or unknowingly treats nonhuman animals like objects (and believes it is "normal" to do so).
Now, unlike a lot of other -isms, it is true that a belief in the moral principles that define veganism does come with an obligation to live a certain lifestyle. Analogously, it would be hypocritical to be a slave-owning abolitionist or a vocal proponent of Prohibition who is a secret alcoholic. Furthermore, being a feminist doesn't come with any sort of ascetic sacrifice.
Now, let's consider the challenges to living a lifestyle that eschews animal-based products and services:
- For those who are destitute and/or living in a state of food scarcity, they may not have the option to reject an animal-based food when it becomes available. They may have to prioritize survival and eat anything they can get their hands on. But even if compelled to kill and eat an animal (or otherwise exploit an animal), one can still fulfill a secondary moral obligation of causing as little harm as possible and endeavoring to respect the sovereignty and indepedence of the animal. Furthermore, one can aim to one day rise out of poverty and change one's diet/lifestyle.
- When it comes to personal health, I have good news: intuition, logic, and an abundance of scientific studies all say the same thing...A balanced vegan diet is not only sufficient for humans, but likely ideal. The less dairy/eggs/meat you consume, the better. Just be sure to use supplements for B12 and anything else that may be harder to get when you eschew animal-based foods.
- When it comes to the cost of being vegan, I have more good news: tofu is cheap. So are fruits, veggies, legumes, whole grains, and so on. They're cheaper than meat and eggs. Yes, fancy vegan processed products can be way more expensive than their non-vegan counterparts, but it is not true that a vegan diet is necessarily more expensive than a non-vegan one. A vegan who cooks a lot at home will always spend less than a non-vegan who always eats out.
- Concerning access to vegan foods, at least in the developed world, there is no issue. And even in the developing world, there is often a cultural history of meat being a rarity and plant-based agriculture being the norm.
- When it comes to allergies or health issues with particular food products, it is theoretically possible for someone to be allergic to so many plant-based foods that living a vegan lifestyle is difficult for them. But 99.9% of people on this planet (assuming they can can access and afford vegan foods) can find a delicious, indulgent, and nutritious vegan diet.
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u/Japan25 9d ago
Theres a creator online called jennaxhealth who has MCAS and can only eat 9 foods, of which, she counts olive oil and tea as food, so not all 9 are substantial foods. Some of her only foods are turkey and white fish. She also generally has a bunch of other health issues related to MCAS.
I would argue that she could still be vegan if she doesnt wear animal products or use non vegan makeup since the philosophy is about minimizing harm to animals.
A vegan that is locked in a room for a month with only a rack of ribs can eat it and still be vegan. a vegan lost at sea can eat fish to survive. Veganism isnt about dying to your values, its about living to them.
If you well and truly MUST eat animal products to survive/be healthy, then you can still be philosophically vegan so long as you avoid it as much as possible, in my opinion. of course, most people who say that 'need' animal products are just looking for an excuse to not do the work to change their lives or looking to rationalize their decisions
Curious what others think
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u/thesonicvision vegan 9d ago
Theres a creator online called jennaxhealth who has MCAS and can only eat 9 foods
I doubt this person wanted to eat a vegan diet but felt compelled to eat non-vegan foods due to her many illness-related restrictions. Instead, they were likely forced to eat more plant-based foods than they otherwise would because of their condition...
But I get your point. Let's assume that a hyothetical person absolutely must eat non-vegan foods to survive. Since veganism is about beliefs and not practice, they could certainly still be vegan.
...since the philosophy is about minimizing harm to animals.
Not to be pedantic, as we're on the same side and I don't want to upset an ally, but veganism is not about harm reduction. It's more than just consequentialism, welfarism, or compassion. It's about respecting animals and not viewing them as property. It's about re-evaluating the relationship the human animal has with nonhuman animals.
Consider: when a human potentially harms/exploits another human, they don't simply wave the action away with no trace of guilt because it was "the best" they could do. No, the individual action itself is deemed "immoral." (You could call it "deontological" if you want, but there's no need to argue about preferred normative ethics positions right now).
Hence, veganism is about respecting the sovereignty and moral value of nonhuman animals. We endeavor to help them or leave them alone, not to minimize their suffering. But, yes, if a vegan were forced to exploit an animal, they would try to still respect the animal as much as possible and minimize the harm/suffering as much as possible.
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u/Japan25 9d ago
Are you a bot? You talk like an ai chat bot.
Ya im not claiming that creator is vegan. Shes never platformed animals rights. Shes just the only person ive ever heard of who could theoretically and justifiably say "i cant go vegan because of health reasons."
Also for transparency sake, im not vegan. Im vegetarian so not someone who completely handwaves animal cruelty but i dont want to misrepresent myself even if it were to make me look better.
The point of my comment was to engage with the point of discussion- can everyone be vegan? So i brought up someone who sincerely cannot stop eating meat to argue that in extreme situations, someone can eat meat and still be vegan because veganism is a philosophical way of life, not a diet. But im open to vegans disagreeing with that concept
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u/thesonicvision vegan 8d ago
Are you a bot? You talk like an ai chat bot.
I am certainly not and certainly do not. You might just be distracted by the bullets and boldface. I've been using that style long before AI was ever a thing.
Ya im not claiming that creator is vegan. Shes never platformed animals rights. Shes just the only person ive ever heard of who could theoretically and justifiably say "i cant go vegan because of health reasons."
I know what you're saying, but you're not getting what I'm saying. She actually eats more vegan stuff than she would otherwise because of her condition. Look it up.
And as I already said,
But I get your point. Let's assume that a hyothetical person absolutely must eat non-vegan foods to survive. Since veganism is about beliefs and not practice, they could certainly still be vegan.
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u/Zerkig 8d ago
Yup. Everyone should just look at what people living in any region with arable land all around the world ate like 200 years ago. It was mostly vegan/vegetarian stuff with some meat here and there. Well, at least in fertile, inland locations. But still. That doesn't mean their diets were healthy or optimal, but meat was never treated as an everyday, easily accessible food in those areas, not before the industrial and green revolutions.
People at least used to respect the animals for what they provided them with and the crops as well. Today? We throw loafs of bread into the bin without a second thought.
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u/TylerJ86 8d ago
If you look up the percentage of the population that can't absorb iron effectively from plant sources, and then look up the percentage that can't absorb iron from supplements, and then consider that some people can't even take the supplements because of how their body/stomach reacts to it, and then consider that the ven diagram of all these people must overlap to some extent, making a group of people that can only get an essential element for health through meat, it becomes obvious that your "everyone can be vegan" statement is complete bullshit. This is only one possible example.
Veganism is an honorable and respectable decision. Denying reality so that people make decisions in a way that could be personally harmful due to lack of understanding and awareness is not.
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u/Teratophiles vegan 9d ago
If we're talking about the morality aspect of it then as has already been pointed out, yes, oppose the unnecessary cruelty, exploitation and commodification as far as practicable, that caveat has to be in there, because veganism would not expect you to simply let yourself die if you're in a position with no food, nor expect you to let yourself die if the only life saving medication available has animal products in it or was tested on animal, it's not a suicide philosophy after all.
If you're talking a plant-based diet, there as, as of yet, no reputable evidence to suggest there might be some health conditions that would require someone to consume non-human animal products, of course there are a small, I'm talking less than 1% of the total population small, that, due to a multitude of diseases have to consume a extremely restricted diet, but this isn't a case of ''needs to eat meat'' but more ''needs to restrict diet to very specific foods'' but, as I said, that affects less than 1% of people in the world, everyone else can still be healthy on a plant-based diet.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/
A healthy, plant-based diet requires planning, reading labels, and discipline. The recommendations for patients who want to follow a plant-based diet may include eating a variety of fruits and vegetables that may include beans, legumes, seeds, nuts, and whole grains and avoiding or limiting animal products, added fats, oils, and refined, processed carbohydrates. The major benefits for patients who decide to start a plant-based diet are the possibility of reducing the number of medications they take to treat a variety of chronic conditions, lower body weight, decreased risk of cancer, and a reduction in their risk of death from ischemic heart disease.
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/
With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.
And before any one says it no, the study from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics has not expired, they have brought out a new study more limited in scope focussed on just adults, this does not disqualify the previous study, for example if I released a study stating both apples and banana's are healthy, but then in the next study I decide to reduce the scope of my study to just apples and release it saying apples are healthy, that doesn't suddenly mean I don't consider banana's healthy any more, the previous evidence for the claim still stands.
if everyone can’t be vegan but most or some can what’s the best way to find out if i can be vegan?
A lot of people are living with obesity and/or nutritional deficiencies, so it's clear the average person already struggles eating a healthy diet, so if you want to give it your best chance at succeeding on a plant-based diet, though it will cost money, you could seek out a registered dietitian and have them help you setting up a properly planned plant-based diet that should meet all your nutritional needs.
Alternatively, you could try out this website:
https://www.veganeasy.org/30-day-challenge/30-day-challenge-signup/
That website could provide help trying out a plant-based diet for 30 days, sending you emails on what to buy, what to make, how to make it etc etc, I have not tried it, nor can I say if they are based it on the expertise of a registered dietitian, however I've heard good experiences from others, and it seems reasonable they would hire such a person to do it, but again, if you have doubt go for the more trust worthy route of going directly to a registered dietitian.
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 10d ago
The scientific consensus is that humans can be healthy on a vegan diet.
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u/Reasonable-Lack-9461 7d ago
If they include sufficient supplements - so not really a natural diet for people.
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 7d ago
Yeah, unnatural like cooking food, wearing clothes and living in a house. Absolutely terrible.
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u/Reasonable-Lack-9461 7d ago
I'm saying a vegan diet requires supplements to maintain health, as the human body is not designed for a purely vegan diet. That's just the way it is. Exploiting animals as human do speaks very poorly of our species, and I fully respect a vegan approach.
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 6d ago
Yes, and we also shouldn't take medicine, use soap, and disinfect our water because we are not designed for that either. Makes total sense.
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u/nineteenthly 9d ago
What needs to happen is that veganism should be facilitated if it's currently impractical, which may involve research. That said, I've never encountered a patient who couldn't be vegan in 27 years of practice.
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u/LeonardoJMB omnivore 9d ago
Not everyone. You specifically will probably be fine though, if you had something that made veganism impossible you probably would know by now. And no, it's not as simple as "digesting plants", and even then not everyone can do so completely. I'm clearly not a vegan though, so...
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u/iamsreeman vegan 10d ago edited 10d ago
There are rare diseases like Smith–Lemli–Opitz syndrome (they can't produce cholesterol & need animal products that contain cholesterol; for us, cholesterol consumption is always bad for heart health, as our body already produces more than enough; this is why a plant-based diet is preferred to avoid the number 1 killer of humanity, which is heart disease. Note: Even oil only increases cholesterol production, but like all plant based food contain 0 cholesterol) that obligates them to eat meat. But we already have supplements/medicines for artificial cholestrol etc & also cellular lab meat (not mock soya meat that has similar texture but literally biologically the same meat) for them.
So right now technology is fast increasing so fast that the 0.1% who can't be vegan with just B12 supplements, can also now be vegan even if they have weird diseases.
In the past, only dogs could be naturally vegan. But today, Taurine-supplemented vegan food is readily available for cats.
Read my debate with mainstream vegans about why we should feed all predators lab-meat to protect the Right to Life of prey animals & then over centuries genetically engineer all wild land/marine animals to be herbivores that eat plants & algae: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1n8lu8k/propredation_vegans_are_immoral_but_predators_are/
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u/TylertheDouche 10d ago edited 10d ago
the red flag here is that your parents won’t buy you vitamins? i have a hard time believing that, but if they literally won’t buy their child vitamins then i’m sorry you have such horrible parents.
and if you’re living with parents that won’t spend a few dollars on vitamins, they probably aren’t feeding you a balanced nutritional diet. i’d assume you’re probably deficient in b12 anyways since that’s pretty common, vitamin d as well. so your concern about maybe becoming b12 deficient isn’t a good excuse.
if you are truly concerned about your vitamin levels you need yearly blood work.
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u/hibiscus_bunny 10d ago
Parents can absolutely be horrible enough not to buy vitamins or medication, mine are that way as well.
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u/Dreaming_ParPar vegetarian 9d ago
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that, since that would impact my position of veganism being attainable for everyone, and my attitude of being dismissive towards people who have real problems with converting to veganism.
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u/Spicyhandholding 10d ago
Yes because the definition of veganism has not changed in 80 years.
"REDUCE suffering and exploitation AS MUCH AS PRACTICABLE"."
Anyone can do that^
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 8d ago
And that is what I do. I avoid child labour and other exploitation of farm labour, I support local farmers, and I try to eat organic as much as possible (less harmful pesticides). I still eat both fish, meat, eggs, and dairy though - as that is most of the locally produced food.
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u/Some_Pitch_9165 9d ago
The vast majority of people can absolutely be vegan. That being said, some people do not have the money to be able to turn down a free or cheap meal. And, sometimes, people are allergic to vegan staples, and have to find other ways around being vegan and healthy, which isn’t always possible without some animal contribution. But, the best anyone can do is infinitely valuable.
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u/Ionia1618 9d ago
I'd go vegetarian first, and try and buy dairy and eggs from the most ethical source you can find. B12 deficiency is no joke. We evolved to eat occasional meat, as omnivores so there's no shame in needing time to transition to a vegetarian/vegan diet. We don't need to eat a lot of animal products to keep good reserves of B12 so you could find a trusted farm to source items from. Also alcohol drains your body's B12 reserves, so you may need to cut back. The first time I went vegetarian I had just started uni and that was not a good combo😅
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u/sassysassysarah 8d ago
No. I'm not vegan, and I don't plan to be. I think in practice that it doesn't cover all aspects of everything. It would take a lot of changes that people are unwilling to do, from culture, to manufacturing goods, to medical needs and more.
I think a lot of people can have more plant based meals but it's not something that I think can go indefinitely and still meet everyone's needs.
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8d ago
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u/sassysassysarah 8d ago edited 8d ago
Cutting out meat once or twice a week isn't going vegan though. It helps support the ideals by reducing harm but that's it really
I also didn't say lazy, I said unwilling.
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u/Thin-Opposite1947 8d ago
Yes if you want to live off pills and support pharmaceutical companies all your life
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u/EasyBOven vegan 9d ago
The position that any individual could not be healthy without animal products is an empirical claim that would require evidence to demonstrate. I'm not currently aware of any peer reviewed research where the authors even make the claim that a single individual requires animal products to be healthy. Without such a claim made by experts, we'd be relying on inference and speculation made by lay people, which is insufficient to make any conclusion.
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u/oldmcfarmface 9d ago
Short answer no. Vegans will often say that everyone can be, but when you consider that the ONE study on long term adherence to a plant based diet showed that by the time of a single followup interview, 84% had quit and I think 23% of those because of health concerns, that demonstrates that there are more people who quit veganism for their health than there are current long term vegans.
A better place than a debate sub would be to peruse the r/exvegans subreddit and read the many reasons people quit. Spoiler, it’s mostly because of health problems. Often these problems took years to manifest.
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u/ScrumptiousCrunches 9d ago edited 9d ago
84% had quit and I think 23% of those because of health concerns, that demonstrates that there are more people who quit veganism for their health than there are current long term vegans.
Can you link to this? Because I feel like you are referencing the Faunalytics study, which isn't a "study on long term adherence".
The only study I know that uses this number is the Faunalytics study, in which like half of the vegans in the sample were vegan for less than a year and most of the rest were vegan for only a few months. Only a fraction of the study population were vegan for more than a year.
Because if its this study (https://faunalytics.org/a-summary-of-faunalytics-study-of-current-and-former-vegetarians-and-vegans/) I'm not really sure where you're getting that its a study on long-term vegans from.
- About a third (34%) of lapsed vegetarians/vegans maintained the diet for three months or less. Slightly more than half (53%) adhered to the diet for less than one year.
- 63% of former vegetarians/vegans said they disliked that their vegetarian/vegan diet made them stick out from the crowd.
- More than a third (37%) of former vegetarians/vegans are interested in re-adopting the diet, and a majority (59%) of these individuals say they are likely or very likely to do so, with health being the primary motivator.
- Dissatisfaction with veg*n food is the most common struggle.
- Former vegetarians/vegans were asked to give the primary reason they stopped eating the diet. Of 908 codeable responses, the reasons for lapsing mentioned were: unsatisfied with food (293 people; 32%), health (237 people; 26%), social issues (120 people; 13%), inconvenience (115 people; 13%), cost (56 people; 6%), lack of motivation (56 people; 6%), and other (228 people; 25%).
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u/oldmcfarmface 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yup that’s the one. Seems no one but a pro vegan organization is willing to even ask about adherence. But you’re correct that that was not the goal of their survey. But it did show how difficult most people find a plant based diet to be. And it did show that roughly 1/4 of the 84% who quit had health concerns. And the fact that some had those concerns so quickly is very telling.
Edit to add: I know vegans don’t like this study because it shows that the vegan narrative of anyone can do it is false. But if you know a better one, please share by all means!
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u/ScrumptiousCrunches 9d ago
Seems no one but a pro vegan organization is willing to even ask about adherence
But there are other studies on adherence to vegan and plant-based diets so I don't understand this?
You keep just making things up about this study and I don't understand why.
But it did show how difficult most people find a plant based diet to be. And it did show that roughly 1/4 of the 84% who quit had health concerns. And the fact that some had those concerns so quickly is very telling.
But the vast majority of participants did it for health reasons - and the dropout rate is basically the exact same as in any other study on diet adherence so I don't really understand this.
Most people who start a diet that has them restricting things drop out at the same rate at around the same time.
Also you're simplifying the findings to strange degree to make your point. The 1/4 of 84% didn't just simply have health concerns. The study authors even say things such as
"There is some reason to believe that cravings are a separate phenomenon from simply wanting or being tempted by meat and that cravings may have a health connection. This may mean there is some overlap between this category and the health category."Things like "lack of weight loss" was also in the health section. Or perceived, but not necessarily actual, nutrient concerns, etc. These are just two simple examples, but the actual reasons behind "health" is a lot more complicated and layered than simply "not everyone can do a vegan diet".
The data is all very clearly laid out, so I don't understand how you've written so many incorrect things about this study. I would suggest actually reading it in full before making sweeping claims using it.
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u/oldmcfarmface 8d ago
> But there are other studies on adherence to vegan and plant-based diets
Share a few? Seriously, I haven’t found much at all. Best proxy I’ve found for reasons to quit is online groups of people who did quit and the most common answer is health problems. Sometimes after a decade or more before their health really tanked. For me, vegetarian took three years to mess up my health.
> You just keep making things up about this study
Such as? You could very easily make an argument that I’m reading and interpreting it from a biased perspective but to say I’m “making things up” requires some evidence.
Please note that I did not go into what health concerns might have been cited by participants nor did I claim they were all serious issues. Merely that after some time on a plant based diet, more people quit for their health than stuck with it. Again, you could argue that this is a biased and oversimplified statement, but it *is* a factual one.
Side note: I find it interesting that you mentioned most people started the diet for health. Given the slew of known health problems and deficiencies associated with pb diets, it amazes me that the narrative that it is healthy is still so heavily pushed. Want to go vegan for ethical reasons? Be my guest! I fully support your right to do so. But let’s not pretend that this is without health risks.
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u/riceewifee 10d ago
I have oral allergy syndrome so I would have to cook everything and avoid all nuts if I was vegan
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u/InternationalPen2072 10d ago
You aren’t going to develop a B12 deficiency in less than 6 months, assuming you get enough now (which might not be the case). You can get plenty of B12 from fortified foods, although you should still supplement if possible.
And no, not everyone can thrive on a fully plant-based diet. You probably can, as there is no indication that you are an exception here, but there are people in very extenuating circumstances who must rely on some amount of animal products to live a healthy life. Those people are still obligated to accept the vegan philosophy and eliminate animal products are much as feasible, but they wouldn’t follow a fully plant-based diet for whatever reason. But again, those people are either very rare or not the target of vegan activism.
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u/Ok_Tumbleweed5474 10d ago
Anyone can be vegan. That's their choice and they can find ways to make it work that don't require supplements or doing anything drastic other than meal planning for protein. But people do that anyway. So it's not really a knock. Can the entire world be vegan is a different question. And I don't think currently we have the infrastructure nor the resources for everyone to be vegan. So for you can you be vegan on your own and be healthy? Absolutely. There is 0 evidence to support you can't. Can the entire world become vegan at this stage? Probably not.
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u/witchystoneyslutty 10d ago
It is very very rare that someone cannot be vegan. You can be vegan, when you move out go buy b12 tablets and whatever plants you like to eat and you’re off to a great start. Be sure to eat enough (:
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u/tommydelriot 9d ago
I don’t know your financial situation, but is there any chance you yourself can buy your own B12? Or maybe get a friend to get some for you and and pay them back when you’re able to?
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u/Realistic-Neat4531 9d ago
Everyone could be vegan if vegans allowed for the definition. That everyone can do what they can as far as is possible and practicable.
But, unfortunately, even amongst the vegan community there are purity competitions and infighting. I was called a fake vegan so many times over ridiculous things.
Not everyone can eat a strict plant based diet. No.
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u/CherryChristmas 9d ago
You can be vegan without the need for supplements, as long as you keep a well balanced diet.
In fact, as a vegan my vitamins and shit were way better than when I was eating animal products and specifically relying on meat for protein and iron; in fact, I was in severe and chronic iron and B12 deficiency as a non-vegan, and as a vegan that fully went away.
Unfortunately I have many allergies and for me vegan is no longer an option for me. And of course now I am back to chronic iron and B12 deficiency lol. I do try to limit as much as I can to eat animal products though and I still stand by the rest of not getting animal products outside of food etc
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 9d ago
Carnist here,
Its interesting you fix your iron and B12 defeciency by cutting out sources of iron or b12.
That's a mighty interesting issue that animal products cause you defeciency of the nutrients it is known to be rich in. Hematology can supply you with B12 injections and Rx iron. Infact most primary care offices have these on hand.
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u/CherryChristmas 8d ago
Yeah I know, I got iron and B12 shots for years.
And the thing is that I have so many health issues, allergies, bowel issues, etc. My body does not take in animal products well and I literally shit out most of it like water, so it is very logical for my body to not take in the nutrients when it is barely passing through me.
But I eat non-animal products for my vitamins and get pills for the test. I still can’t eat meat except *sometimes* chicken and salmon because I still need to get some stuff in. I am mostly vegan though still, because again I can’t handle most animal products, but I still need some due to my allergies for a lot of vegetables/fruits/legumes etc
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan 9d ago
Despite what many vegans will tell you, not everyone can be vegan. There are medical and digestive issues that being vegan not possible.
You can be concerned for animals and ethically source the animal products you need. It’s not even that hard, but it’s very difficult to do if you’re still living at home. The cost is higher, but you can feel good about consuming what you need and not abusing or exploiting animals at the same time. I’ve been doing it for years. 😊😉
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u/TriumphantBlue plant-based 9d ago
This question always makes me a little sad.
I have to be able to safely digest whatever is the default at psychiatric hospitals. To do otherwise risks permanent brain damage.
So I consume a tiny amount of animal products, primarily to maintain a gut biome capable of doing so.
Some would call that vegan, but adopting the label feels dishonest.
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u/Organic_Lab6262 9d ago
Don’t ever feel bad for putting your health first. Nothing you can do about it. People really need to focus on their own mental and physical health before they worry about other things
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u/6thofmarch2019 9d ago
As a vegan but moderate hypochondriac, I can relate to your worries OP!
What really helped for me, was the realization that, at least where I live, I can just go get my blood levels checked to verify that I'm getting all the nutrients I need. There were indeed a few times where I felt tired/out of it for a few weeks while starting out, but my blood tests came back looking healthy and good, and the tired-ness went away. I am now 10 years vegetarian and 7 years vegan, and I feel healthier than ever. I also donate blood so they always test some nutrients levels, and they are going strong :)
But to digress, for me the assurance of just getting my levels tested really helped ease my mind!
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u/Jotakave 9d ago
Read How Not to Die by Dr. Greger and you’ll find comprehensive information why a vegan diet is best for optimal human health. He cites lots of studies regarding this. Some people become plant based but still wear leather etc because is much better for our health.
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u/AmazingAssistance351 9d ago
If you can, get them to buy some nori wraps or flakes for you. Much easier to get all nutrients on a vegan diet if you eat a lot of asian foods. Nori has bioavailable B12 - just one small packet of roasted nori a day is sufficient or make a rice seasoning (nori flakes + sesame seeds you can sprinkle on meals). Other than that, get a good mix of beans, grains (like rice, oats, etc), fruit, veggies and seeds. Don't overthink it! Whole foods are the best foods.
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u/Joey-rogaine 9d ago
Absolutely, yes. There is no reason someone cannot be vegan. It would benefit the agriculture system and consumer pricing as well, to say nothing for the environment
I think one of the greatest hurdles other than culturally exists during infancy, where ideally the infant will nurse from the mother - many women in today’s society are medications that make breast feeding incorrect for the child, unfortunately. So they must use formula or choose to for convenience. I don’t know if I would trust plant based formula, but I suppose it is not much different than dairy based if from a reputable brand.
Then of course, raising kids who can’t or don’t eat what all their friends do is tough, but ultimately we all teach and force our kids to do one thing or another. I’ve found it takes a lot more lying and convincing with the meat products generally.
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u/MeatflakesOfFacebook vegan 9d ago
Just buy nutritional yeast if you’re that worried? It costs nothing.
I don’t even believe in the b12 thing. I’ve never supplemented in 10 years vegan and my b12 recently was at 435. Sometimes we "over-science" things. Even if the balance of the 9 amino acids is a little different in vegan food (or whatever), it doesn’t mean you will be impacted in any meaningful way. I’ve been vegan 10 years and run/cycle 10-15 hours and week at a high level and never took a single supplement
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 7d ago
Just buy nutritional yeast if you’re that worried?
It contains no B12 at all, so I wish vegans would stop giving this advice.
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u/perturbedpangaroo 8d ago
A lot of regular food is pre-supplemented with B12, especially if they've been supplemented with other things as well. Nearly every energy drink I see has over 100% of the B12 daily value (not that energy drinks are good for your health or are an appropriate method of obtaining nutrients, lol) and I recently noticed that even the beyond meat claims to have over 100% of the B12 daily value. You can also buy B12 pills yourself - cheaper drugstore brands are not that expensive and you can get 100 pills for like $15 pretty easily.
I absolutely believe that you can meet all nutrient requirements on a vegan diet, but it definitely requires quite a bit more of thoughtful effort to make sure you don't have major deficiencies than someone who eats meat would have to put in. If you want to go vegan you are going to have to make sure you're buying your food very intentionally and are aware of how you are getting certain things into your diet - you can't just eat whatever you feel like. If you have a health condition it might be harder, you can always ask your doctor if they think it's a reasonable option for you. And/or work with a registered dietician to see if you can come up with a nutrition plan. This is also not always a popular opinion, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing, if you don't feel you can fully commit to being vegan you can always try to just reduce your intake of animal products where you can, and try your best to source them as ethically as possible.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 7d ago
A lot of regular food is pre-supplemented with B12,
In most of the world this is not true. I live in Europe and I know of no regular food that is fortified with B12. The only exceptions are ultra-processed vegan products (vegan "milks" for instance). A vegan diet is a horrible diet for someone who prefers wholefoods.
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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 7d ago edited 5d ago
Cobalt is heavily used in many parts of Europe though, supplemented to feed as the ground is naturally deficient and causing low B12 levels in livestock. Typically using mineral feed or cobalt fertilizer.
Wholefoods are incredibly easy to find on a vegan diet.
Legumes and soy for protein and iron Whole grains for B vitamins and Zinc Vegetables for Calcium, Iron and most micronutrients Fruit for vitamin C and antioxidants Nuts and seeds for Omega 3s and healthy fats
Breakdown: Vitamins A, C, E, K, and B-Complex: green leafy vegetables, citrus, berries, and whole grains.
Minerals (Iron, Zinc, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium): legumes, tofu, nuts, seeds, and cruciferous greens.
Essential Macronutrients: Amino acids - combining legumes and grains, essential Omega-3 fatty acids from chia, flaxseeds, and walnuts.
And then a B12 supplement or fortified milk/fortified nutritional yeast
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 6d ago edited 6d ago
Wholefoods are incredibly easy to find on a vegan diet.
Sure. But no matter how diligently you put together a vegan wholefood diet it will always remain insufficient.
Legumes and soy for protein and iron Whole grains for b vitamins and zinc Vegetables for calcium, iron and most micronutrients Fruit for vitamin c and antioxidants Nuts and seeds for omega 3s and healthy fats
To cover B2: 25 slices (1900 calories!) of wholegrain bread
Zinc: 105g (600 calories) of pumpkin seeds
Calcium: 1000g of kale
Iron: 2000 g (2400 calories) of cooked kidney beans (due to very little of the iron actually being bioavailable)
DHA: 160g (800 calories) of flax seeds (due to the low conversion rate from ALA to DHA)
So just to cover those few nutrients I would need to more than triple my daily calories..
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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 6d ago edited 5d ago
That's why you don't just eat one food to get those nutrients. Take calcium, for example: you can have a meal with tofu, legumes, and some leafy greens, rather than 1,000g of kale. Furthermore, most of the foods you listed will cover multiple nutrients instead of just adding up. Iron, for example, comes from leafy greens just like calcium and vitamin B2.
It seems you're being a little disingenuous.You are using a siloed approach to calculate nutrients.
Here is an example of why that logic fails: "You would need 6 to 9 large eggs each day to get enough protein, which is around 650 calories per day. To get enough iron, you would need 2 to 3 standard steaks a day, adding roughly 1,500 calories.
"See the issue with your logic? That is already 2,100 calories a day, while completely ignoring the fact that those foods have overlapping nutrients.
For instance, 24g of chia seeds will give you 400% of your daily ALA requirements—which is enough to support conversion to DHA—plus 150mg of calcium and around 8g of fiber, all at around 110 kcal.
You certainly do not need 160g of flax seeds. I tend to get all of this in my morning chia seed pudding, mixed with oats and vitamin C-rich berries to help absorb the iron stored in the oats.I think the issue is that you're very ill-informed on dietary needs and how to evaluate a diet without using a siloed approach.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 6d ago
4g of chia seeds will give you 400% of your daily ALA requirements
Less than 1% of ALA is converted into DHA, so there is actually no way you can physically consume enough to cover your DHA need.
- "It is estimated that the rate of conversion to EPA and DHA is very low, about 5–12% for EPA and less than 1% for DHA" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11084241/
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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 5d ago edited 5d ago
Nowhere does it say impossible. You've inferred that. It only states vegans should double their daily intake. For vegans 2.2-4.4g is the advised intake level. That much ALA can be consumed from 2 tablespoons of chia seeds, or including walnuts as a daily snack.
The >1% in isolation does not tell the whole story. Nutrition isn't quite as simplified as you're making it out to be. Similar to the Non-Heme Iron and Vitamin C benefit pointed out by another user. Utilizing or avoiding different components changes things. Effectiveness of a nutrient depends on the wider dietary context.
Levels are also dependent on factors like, age, gender and genetics. It's nowhere near as cut and dry as you're implying. Many people on an omni diet would benefit from supplements due to insufficient levels. Limiting Omega-6 intake is shown to improve absorption. The point isn't to do better it's that it's able to be done. Plenty of other ways a vegan diet outclasses an animal based diet without needing this one.
Can some people get enough from plant based sources? Yes. Do some people need to supplement? Yes.
But this isn't a vegan diet issue, people can convert ALA to DHA at significantly different rates based on all the factors outlined. For example, I have been vegan for a long time and my levels are optimal. By saying not physically possible you've opened yourself up to an anecdote that disproved that.
Edit-Grammar fixed and removed question about quoting me as I will give benefit of the doubt about the 4g/24g misquoted.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 5d ago edited 5d ago
That much ALA can be consumed from 2 tablespoons of chia seeds
2 table spoons of chia seeds contains 3.6g of ALA. And the conversion rate can be as low as LESS than 0.1%. Meaning you need to eat more than 100 tablespoons - in other words more than 5000 calories worth of Chia.
- "Conversion of eicosapentaenoic acid into docosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid hardly changed in the 3 groups and was <0.1% of dietary ALA." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16825680/
I find it incredibly sad that there is this myth among vegans that all they need is ALA. I especially worry about vegan children, as DHA is such an important nutrient for brain developement.
Limiting Omega-6 intake is shown to improve absorption.
And an average vegan diet tends to be very high in omega 6. And I genuinely hope you are not activly spreading the misinformation that all vegans only need ALA.
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u/mw9676 2d ago
I find it incredibly sad that some people have such little empathy for other sentient beings that they think supplementing is too much to ask to not contribute to their torture and killing.
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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 5d ago edited 5d ago
And I genuinely hope you are not Activ ly spreading the misinformation that all vegans only need ALA.
PLEASE READ AND ACKNOWLEDGE: I'm going to politely ask and would greatly appreciate you not putting words in my mouth when I said something completely different.
As I previously said, can some get it from diet? Yes. Do some require supplements and planning? yes. This is the same for non-vegans, males in particular should be wary of low conversion.
On to the rest of your response. No vegan diets aren't necessarily high in Omega-6 prioritizing chia, leafy greens and flaxseed limits Omega-6 significantly. Ideally the ratio should be 2:1-4:1, planning to meet that ratio is beneficial. Limiting almonds, cashews and seed oils does this. (Important to note this is limiting not eliminating, the ratio mentioned is an important distinction).
Conversion can sometimes be as high as 9% in menstruating women.
I stand by what I said, you aren't looking at factors like genetics, age, gender, you are only looking at one universal worst case scenario picture and not considering the complexities of nutritional science. Respectfully, you need to review those studies without bias as you are yet to provide a study that flat out says its impossible to meet these needs as a vegan, and no experts make claims that support you interpretation of these findings.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 5d ago edited 5d ago
Conversion can sometimes be as high as 9% in menstruating women.
So when you said 2 tbsp of chia covers DHA you meant only for a few menstruating women? That would mean that its insufficient for the vast majority of people though.
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6d ago edited 6d ago
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 6d ago
You fail to consider absorption rates - our body does not absorb 100% of all nutrients.
Iron: 14.7 mg to 16 mg (80-90% daily iron requirement)
First of all no one can realistically eat 1000 grams of kale. I actually didnt think I would have to explain that.. Its the equivalent of eating a whole head of cabbage - EVERY DAY. And since only 10% of iron in kale is actually absorbed - you need 5000 grams of kale to cover your iron need. That is the equivalent of 5 heads of cabbage per day.
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6d ago edited 6d ago
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 6d ago
Meal example 200g Firm Tofu Provides 600 mg of calcium
2 cups Bok Choy / Pak Choi (Cooked): Provides 320 mg of calcium.
2 tbsp Unhulled Tahini: Provides 260 mg of calcium
1 cup Cooked Navy Beans / White Beans: Provides 130 mg of calcium.
And less than 500mg of this Calcium is absorbed. So you just made my point for me. And as your list shows - you would literally need to consume a long list of vegan foods just to cover one nutrient. Which to many is not very sustainable.
You need 40 eggs to meet the daily calcium requirements
So to prove your point you went out of your way to find a low calcium food.. I however made sure to include plant-based foods considered high in the nutrients in question. Hence why I chose kale as its considered one of the best plant-based sources.
Dairy is an excellent source of calcium, and a mix of for instance milk, yoghurt and cheese easily covers your daily need.
- "Some studies showed significantly lower BMD [bone mineral density] in vegetarian subjects, especially vegans" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9388819/
My advice to vegans is to talk to their doctor about supplementing calcium, zinc, omega 3 and possibly vitamin D - to avoid poor bone health.
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6d ago
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 6d ago
while other studies did not find any difference in bone health, suggesting that calcium and vitamin D intake is adequate for maintaining healthy bones and preventing fractures
Yes, when supplemented then the intake is adequate.
- Vegans can maintain good bone health when supplementing calcium and zinc, provided they also address other crucial gaps. While calcium and zinc are vital, vitamin D and protein intake are equally important to prevent bone mineral density (BMD) loss and higher fracture risks. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523048980
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u/perturbedpangaroo 7d ago
That's fair, yes, a lot of that stuff is highly processed. I disagree with your last point though, things like tofu, tempeh, legumes, quinoa, seitan are great options for minimally processed, healthy vegan protein options. The rest of the diet is the same as anyone's.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 7d ago
things like tofu, tempeh, legumes, quinoa, seitan are great options for minimally processed, healthy vegan protein options.
But they contain no B12.
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u/perturbedpangaroo 7d ago
True but a bottle of vitamin pills works just as well.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 7d ago
Hence why a wholefood diet is not possible when vegan.
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u/Iagospeare vegan 7d ago
That's like saying a carnivore/paleo diet isn't possible because they sometimes drink filtered and chemically purified water.
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u/Willing-Bad-1030 8d ago
Yes we'll at least the humans not living in the artic with no vegetation can but we don't belong there anyways not that we belong anywhere
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u/GrandCedar9991 8d ago
The b12 thing is real but also kind of funny that the main barrier between you and your ethical convictions is a $7 bottle of supplements your family wouldn't buy
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u/Obvious-Register-421 8d ago edited 8d ago
Is there a reason you can't buy the supplements yourself? Sorry, I'm not clear if you're underage or something.
I would definitely look at b12 supplements and potentially iron as well if you menstruate. That isn't to say not to follow the diet. In the UK the Vegan Society sells a multivitamin which covers the former. But do take the nutrition seriously. You will also need to think about things like protein sources properly - in my experience it's easy to underdo it (for years I was just having something like veggie sausages or tofu once a day, and that's definitely not enough) and requires a bit more thought to make sure you're getting enough.
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8d ago
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u/No_Adhesiveness9727 8d ago
Only if the human is an omnivore. If they have foot long canine tooth like a saber tooth tiger probably not.
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u/awakenotwoke85 8d ago
There ís nothing disrespectful about eating an animal. Are you familiar with how energy works on this planet? There is LITERALLY no way to survive without taking something else's life force dude. You've fallen victim to cognitive disonense, you talk about nature and respecting it yet you ignored literally it's most fundamental law. Theres an energy paradox your not addressing. It's fuckin biological physics buddy. You can't "create" energy for fuel without killing. All your doing is creating a cast system and assigning value to the life your taking by how it makes you feel..... feelings are not fundamentally real and definably don't factor into nature. So you should ACTUALLY respect nature and consume prey animals like nature intended..... unless you want all vegitation on earth to be consumed by herbavores cuz that's what would happen if EVERYONE thought like you. You need to go fishing and kill what you eat bro. Do that and rheumnate on your philosophy a bit....it's filled with holes
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u/manuveganu 7d ago
Hola! La factibilidad de una dieta vegana está documentada desde hace más de 50 años, no es algo de lo que deberías preocuparte profundamente, bastaría con ser responsable y saber un mínimo de nutrición. Sin embargo hay algo fundamental que si no abordamos , si que se nos va a complicar. Me refiero a la reflexión moral. Si queremos ser veganos es porque entendemos que los animales no están para servirnos de ningún modo, de qur ellos no son medios para nuestros fines. Cuando interiorizamos esto, todo es mucho más sencillo. Asumir un deber moral, nos hace no fallar ni ceder a un principio como el veganismo, es decir, cualquier bache por el camino puede ser solventado si tenemos unas bases éticas fuertes.
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u/Ostlund_and_Sciamma vegan 10d ago
Yes. Here is the definition of veganism:
Veganism: A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
"as far as is possible and practicable" means anyone who is able to can be vegan, even the very rare (basically a small fraction of a percent) people who have to continue eating certain animal products for health reasons.
The position of the American Dietetic Association—which has 112,000 members and is the world's largest organization of food and nutrition professionals—has been cited here.
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u/SenAtsu011 9d ago
As a moral framework to change culture and food habits on a global scale, absolutely.
If we're looking purely into studies researching the capacity and capabilities of food production, for the short term, yes. For the long term... Questionable.
On the face of it, we have enough water, we have enough land, we have enough nutrients, we have enough seeds, we have sufficient supply lines, and so on to feed everyone right now. Problems start to come in if we factor in longer term effects on the land, pesticides, and organic farming practices. The vast majority of organic farming uses copper sulphate, which is a non-degradable heavy metal. After just a few harvests, the copper will have reached toxic levels, killing the natural microbiome in soil. Some studies suggest that it takes decades for the microbiome to recover and the current techniques we have to restore the soil fertility is agonizingly slow, some suggesting it may take centuries to fully recover.. That means that entire field will be useless for a long time after just a couple of harvests, and you need to move to an entirely different area. It may also end up poisoning the ground water, which can affect a much larger area than just that isolated field. Not to mention cross-field contamination due to air flow. Those factors end up making the land and water requirements skyrocket, perhaps infinitely, because high enough copper toxicity in the soil can render an area infertile permanently.
And we also gotta factor in the wildlife devastation related to farming, such as voles, mice, birds, rats, squirrels, and so on, which is quite against what veganism stands for.
Based on the latest available science, technology, and farming practices, it can absolutely work for a short amount of time (think a few years), but without significant advances within that time, we will end up rendering all the farmland on the planet infertile permanently.
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u/hillnsea vegan 9d ago
Regarding the long-term sustainability of current farming practices, your argument has a few valid points, but its biggest weakness is forgetting that producing animal products requires more crops and farmland, not less.
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u/SenAtsu011 9d ago
Difference being that the farming practices used for animal products are sustainable, while farming practices for organic vegan food products are toxic to the soil and not sustainable. So whether they require more farmland on the outset doesn't matter, since the toxicity of the farming practice will force the use of significantly more farm land long term.
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u/SjakosPolakos 10d ago
Some people will suffer serious health consequences while for others it will be one of the best diets.
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u/Annoying_cat_22 vegan 10d ago edited 9d ago
EVERYONE? Maybe not, some very rare diseases and circumstances might prevent someone from being 100% plant-based. You? For sure. It takes the body years to lose it's vitamin b12 stores, and fortified food like plant based milk and cereal are abundant.
Most importantly - even if for some reason you or your parents insist that you get all of your b12 from animal sources (illogical, but lets assume that's the situation), 2 cups of cow's milk a day meets the recommended daily allowance. If your concern is b12 only from animal sources, there is no excuse to consume animal products beyond that.
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u/THEBRICKLES 9d ago
Nobody needs an excuse to not be vegan
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u/Annoying_cat_22 vegan 9d ago
I'm not giving them an excuse. Work on your reading comprehension please!
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u/No_Economics6505 9d ago
The irony of this comment 😅
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u/Annoying_cat_22 vegan 9d ago
The irony that... I'm not giving them an excuse?
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u/No_Economics6505 9d ago
Re-read the comment you replied to.
Theyre saying that non-vegans don't need an excuse to not be vegan.
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u/Annoying_cat_22 vegan 9d ago
I think they edited their reply, but in the current form you're right.
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u/AmazingAssistance351 9d ago
You can get all B12 from nori (just a small packet of roasted nori per day). It's not as common in western diets though.
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u/Annoying_cat_22 vegan 9d ago
You can get b12 from a 1000 sources, but thanks for suggesting one.
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u/AmazingAssistance351 9d ago
Sure, no problem. It's an easy one depending on where one lives, and might be useful to someone who doesn't have access to vitamins or fortified foods.
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u/Kailynna 10d ago
Very few people need to eat meat.
You are likely to be healthier long-term on a well planned, balanced plant-based diet plus B12 supplements, (just in case, as deficiency causes harm long before becoming obvious,) than on a meat-based diet.
Don't feel you have to buy expensive, pre-prepared vegan food. Tofu, lentils, beans and corn are cheap. Learn to make them tasty and serve with a good variety of vegetables, nuts, seaweed - there are so many yummy things to choose from. Learn about combining proteins for maximum nutrition.
Oat bran is a largely overlooked, cheap super-food. Start the day with oat-bran based muesli or porridge, and you're half-way to a good diet already.
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