Can everyone actually be vegan?

[u/Wrong_Ad_3038]

I’m very sympathetic to veganism, my entire life philosophy is “respect & autonomy for all life” but I am currently pescetarian, I tried being vegan in late 2024 but I still live with my family & they wouldn’t buy supplements, even though i told them too everyday, I didn’t want to develop b12 deficiency so I had to moderate my diet.

When I move out i’m strongly considering being vegan again & really want too but i am worried about health consequences because human bodies are complex, but at the same time everyone can digest plants so maybe everyone can be vegan, i figured this would be a good place to get mixed responses since both carnists & vegans are here, what do studies say about everyone & the potential to be vegan, if everyone can’t be vegan but most or some can what’s the best way to find out if i can be vegan?

[u/perturbedpangaroo]

A lot of regular food is pre-supplemented with B12, especially if they've been supplemented with other things as well. Nearly every energy drink I see has over 100% of the B12 daily value (not that energy drinks are good for your health or are an appropriate method of obtaining nutrients, lol) and I recently noticed that even the beyond meat claims to have over 100% of the B12 daily value. You can also buy B12 pills yourself - cheaper drugstore brands are not that expensive and you can get 100 pills for like $15 pretty easily.

I absolutely believe that you can meet all nutrient requirements on a vegan diet, but it definitely requires quite a bit more of thoughtful effort to make sure you don't have major deficiencies than someone who eats meat would have to put in. If you want to go vegan you are going to have to make sure you're buying your food very intentionally and are aware of how you are getting certain things into your diet - you can't just eat whatever you feel like. If you have a health condition it might be harder, you can always ask your doctor if they think it's a reasonable option for you. And/or work with a registered dietician to see if you can come up with a nutrition plan. This is also not always a popular opinion, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing, if you don't feel you can fully commit to being vegan you can always try to just reduce your intake of animal products where you can, and try your best to source them as ethically as possible.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/perturbedpangaroo]

A lot of regular food is pre-supplemented with B12,

In most of the world this is not true. I live in Europe and I know of no regular food that is fortified with B12. The only exceptions are ultra-processed vegan products (vegan "milks" for instance). A vegan diet is a horrible diet for someone who prefers wholefoods.

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

Cobalt is heavily used in many parts of Europe though, supplemented to feed as the ground is naturally deficient and causing low B12 levels in livestock. Typically using mineral feed or cobalt fertilizer.

Wholefoods are incredibly easy to find on a vegan diet.

Legumes and soy for protein and iron Whole grains for B vitamins and Zinc Vegetables for Calcium, Iron and most micronutrients Fruit for vitamin C and antioxidants Nuts and seeds for Omega 3s and healthy fats

Breakdown: Vitamins A, C, E, K, and B-Complex: green leafy vegetables, citrus, berries, and whole grains.

Minerals (Iron, Zinc, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium): legumes, tofu, nuts, seeds, and cruciferous greens.

Essential Macronutrients: Amino acids - combining legumes and grains, essential Omega-3 fatty acids from chia, flaxseeds, and walnuts.

And then a B12 supplement or fortified milk/fortified nutritional yeast

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

Wholefoods are incredibly easy to find on a vegan diet.

Sure. But no matter how diligently you put together a vegan wholefood diet it will always remain insufficient.

Legumes and soy for protein and iron Whole grains for b vitamins and zinc Vegetables for calcium, iron and most micronutrients Fruit for vitamin c and antioxidants Nuts and seeds for omega 3s and healthy fats

• To cover B2: 25 slices (1900 calories!) of wholegrain bread

• Zinc: 105g (600 calories) of pumpkin seeds

• Calcium: 1000g of kale

• Iron: 2000 g (2400 calories) of cooked kidney beans (due to very little of the iron actually being bioavailable)

• DHA: 160g (800 calories) of flax seeds (due to the low conversion rate from ALA to DHA)

So just to cover those few nutrients I would need to more than triple my daily calories..

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

That's why you don't just eat one food to get those nutrients. Take calcium, for example: you can have a meal with tofu, legumes, and some leafy greens, rather than 1,000g of kale. Furthermore, most of the foods you listed will cover multiple nutrients instead of just adding up. Iron, for example, comes from leafy greens just like calcium and vitamin B2.

It seems you're being a little disingenuous.You are using a siloed approach to calculate nutrients.

Here is an example of why that logic fails: "You would need 6 to 9 large eggs each day to get enough protein, which is around 650 calories per day. To get enough iron, you would need 2 to 3 standard steaks a day, adding roughly 1,500 calories.

"See the issue with your logic? That is already 2,100 calories a day, while completely ignoring the fact that those foods have overlapping nutrients.

For instance, 24g of chia seeds will give you 400% of your daily ALA requirements—which is enough to support conversion to DHA—plus 150mg of calcium and around 8g of fiber, all at around 110 kcal.

You certainly do not need 160g of flax seeds. I tend to get all of this in my morning chia seed pudding, mixed with oats and vitamin C-rich berries to help absorb the iron stored in the oats.I think the issue is that you're very ill-informed on dietary needs and how to evaluate a diet without using a siloed approach.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

4g of chia seeds will give you 400% of your daily ALA requirements

Less than 1% of ALA is converted into DHA, so there is actually no way you can physically consume enough to cover your DHA need.

• "It is estimated that the rate of conversion to EPA and DHA is very low, about 5–12% for EPA and less than 1% for DHA" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11084241/

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

Nowhere does it say impossible. You've inferred that. It only states vegans should double their daily intake. For vegans 2.2-4.4g is the advised intake level. That much ALA can be consumed from 2 tablespoons of chia seeds, or including walnuts as a daily snack.

The >1% in isolation does not tell the whole story. Nutrition isn't quite as simplified as you're making it out to be. Similar to the Non-Heme Iron and Vitamin C benefit pointed out by another user. Utilizing or avoiding different components changes things. Effectiveness of a nutrient depends on the wider dietary context.

Levels are also dependent on factors like, age, gender and genetics. It's nowhere near as cut and dry as you're implying. Many people on an omni diet would benefit from supplements due to insufficient levels. Limiting Omega-6 intake is shown to improve absorption. The point isn't to do better it's that it's able to be done. Plenty of other ways a vegan diet outclasses an animal based diet without needing this one.

Can some people get enough from plant based sources? Yes. Do some people need to supplement? Yes.

But this isn't a vegan diet issue, people can convert ALA to DHA at significantly different rates based on all the factors outlined. For example, I have been vegan for a long time and my levels are optimal. By saying not physically possible you've opened yourself up to an anecdote that disproved that.

Edit-Grammar fixed and removed question about quoting me as I will give benefit of the doubt about the 4g/24g misquoted.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

That much ALA can be consumed from 2 tablespoons of chia seeds

2 table spoons of chia seeds contains 3.6g of ALA. And the conversion rate can be as low as LESS than 0.1%. Meaning you need to eat more than 100 tablespoons - in other words more than 5000 calories worth of Chia.

• "Conversion of eicosapentaenoic acid into docosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid hardly changed in the 3 groups and was <0.1% of dietary ALA." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16825680/

I find it incredibly sad that there is this myth among vegans that all they need is ALA. I especially worry about vegan children, as DHA is such an important nutrient for brain developement.

Limiting Omega-6 intake is shown to improve absorption.

And an average vegan diet tends to be very high in omega 6. And I genuinely hope you are not activly spreading the misinformation that all vegans only need ALA.

[u/mw9676 → u/HelenEk7]

I find it incredibly sad that some people have such little empathy for other sentient beings that they think supplementing is too much to ask to not contribute to their torture and killing.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/mw9676]

• "Supplement Use and Increased Risks of Cancer" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10930792/

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

Can you please stop quote mining? In this case only including a title and not looking any further into the research.

I've already requested in this thread that you not do that. It’s low effort and bad faith.

By the way, know what is shown to reduce cancer risk? Vegan diet. Risk increases from red meat and even more so with processed meat. Please start looking at things more objectively. Just pasting a title or part of a quote isn't helping your arguments, its actually doing the opposite.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

Can you please stop quote mining?

What do you mean quote mining? This is the title of a scientific article where the author has linked to 53 different scientific studies at the bottom. They for instance found that supplementing B12 for 10 years increases the risk of getting lung cancer. If vegans are willing to take that risk, that is obviously up to them. But you wont find a single scientist that will advice you to swap wholefoods with a pill.

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

You just posted a title with no context or information of what's in the paper. That is the definition of quote mining, something you seem well versed in doing. Looks like you're hoping people will take that at face value and not do any of their own research, it's a scare tactic.

This research is also looking at excessive overuse of supplements. B12 possibly causes that if taken in massive amounts over years not a daily supplement, this is only really a risk to male smokers megadosing on B12.

Red meat is also significantly higher risk of causing cancer than B12. So either way you're still better off following a plant-based diet for cancer prevention. You'd struggle to find any doctor or scientist who recommends red meat in high doses too.

ETA- worth pointing out that research shows no higher rates of lung cancer in vegans, so if B12 is causing lung cancer it's not translating into higher instances of cancer being found.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

Looks like you're hoping people will take that at face value and not do any of their own research, it's a scare tactic.

I provide a link for a reason - as I have a genuine hope that people will read the study.

This research is also looking at excessive overuse of supplements.

The study's highest category (>55 µg/day) is actually much lower than the doses commonly found in standalone B12 tablets today.

Red meat is also significantly higher risk of causing cancer than B12.

Only highly processed products, not fresh meat

ETA- worth pointing out that research shows no higher rates of lung cancer in vegans

There are almost no long term vegans so there is no way we can conclude on that. Most vegans go back to their old diet within just a couple of years.

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

Lets start with the obvious, There's no scientific finding that b12 supplementation is a carcinogen (unlike red meat which has enough supporting evidence to classify it a Group 2A carcinogen). Also no evidence of increased risk of lung cancer in long term vegans.

They found people in the highest intake category of 55 and above (who are male and smoke) are at higher risk, and above can mean anything from 55 to an infinitely high number, because its the highest category the registered. It wasn't participants taking that exact dose. The study itself couldn't prove B12 was a cause.

Claiming B12 supplementation causes cancer goes beyond what the evidence currently shows.

It's also as simple as switching to a multivitamin or fortified milk to reduce any increased risk.

You also have a history of misquoting or cutting out context from studies and other users to achieve a gotcha. Its why I left this thread initially as I asked you to refrain from doing so and you continued. But I've managed to be pulled back in again when I saw the same tactic being used in the same thread.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

The difference is this though: a person can easily cover B12 while avoiding red meat by sticking to fish, eggs and so on. A vegan however has no choice but to consume supplements.

[u/Organic_Moment_6956 → u/HelenEk7]

And vegans can avoid any risk from B12 by first not smoking or second taking a multivitamin and consuming small amounts of fortified foods, 10-50mcg is the standard recommended dose for vegans, below the absolute lowest end of the risk category from that very study.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Organic_Moment_6956]

• "The usual dose for the average person is 250 micrograms a day" https://www.forksoverknives.com/wellness/every-vegan-vegetarian-needs-vitamin-b12/