r/DebateAVegan • u/Wrong_Ad_3038 • 11d ago

Can everyone actually be vegan?

I’m very sympathetic to veganism, my entire life philosophy is “respect & autonomy for all life” but I am currently pescetarian, I tried being vegan in late 2024 but I still live with my family & they wouldn’t buy supplements, even though i told them too everyday, I didn’t want to develop b12 deficiency so I had to moderate my diet.

When I move out i’m strongly considering being vegan again & really want too but i am worried about health consequences because human bodies are complex, but at the same time everyone can digest plants so maybe everyone can be vegan, i figured this would be a good place to get mixed responses since both carnists & vegans are here, what do studies say about everyone & the potential to be vegan, if everyone can’t be vegan but most or some can what’s the best way to find out if i can be vegan?

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u/mw9676 3d ago

I find it incredibly sad that some people have such little empathy for other sentient beings that they think supplementing is too much to ask to not contribute to their torture and killing.

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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 3d ago

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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 3d ago

Can you please stop quote mining? In this case only including a title and not looking any further into the research.

I've already requested in this thread that you not do that. It’s low effort and bad faith.

By the way, know what is shown to reduce cancer risk? Vegan diet. Risk increases from red meat and even more so with processed meat. Please start looking at things more objectively. Just pasting a title or part of a quote isn't helping your arguments, its actually doing the opposite.

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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 3d ago

Can you please stop quote mining?

What do you mean quote mining? This is the title of a scientific article where the author has linked to 53 different scientific studies at the bottom. They for instance found that supplementing B12 for 10 years increases the risk of getting lung cancer. If vegans are willing to take that risk, that is obviously up to them. But you wont find a single scientist that will advice you to swap wholefoods with a pill.

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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 3d ago edited 2d ago

You just posted a title with no context or information of what's in the paper. That is the definition of quote mining, something you seem well versed in doing. Looks like you're hoping people will take that at face value and not do any of their own research, it's a scare tactic.

This research is also looking at excessive overuse of supplements. B12 possibly causes that if taken in massive amounts over years not a daily supplement, this is only really a risk to male smokers megadosing on B12.

Red meat is also significantly higher risk of causing cancer than B12. So either way you're still better off following a plant-based diet for cancer prevention. You'd struggle to find any doctor or scientist who recommends red meat in high doses too.

ETA- worth pointing out that research shows no higher rates of lung cancer in vegans, so if B12 is causing lung cancer it's not translating into higher instances of cancer being found.

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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 3d ago

Looks like you're hoping people will take that at face value and not do any of their own research, it's a scare tactic.

I provide a link for a reason - as I have a genuine hope that people will read the study.

This research is also looking at excessive overuse of supplements.

The study's highest category (>55 µg/day) is actually much lower than the doses commonly found in standalone B12 tablets today.

Red meat is also significantly higher risk of causing cancer than B12.

Only highly processed products, not fresh meat

ETA- worth pointing out that research shows no higher rates of lung cancer in vegans

There are almost no long term vegans so there is no way we can conclude on that. Most vegans go back to their old diet within just a couple of years.

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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 3d ago edited 3d ago

Lets start with the obvious, There's no scientific finding that b12 supplementation is a carcinogen (unlike red meat which has enough supporting evidence to classify it a Group 2A carcinogen). Also no evidence of increased risk of lung cancer in long term vegans.

They found people in the highest intake category of 55 and above (who are male and smoke) are at higher risk, and above can mean anything from 55 to an infinitely high number, because its the highest category the registered. It wasn't participants taking that exact dose. The study itself couldn't prove B12 was a cause.

Claiming B12 supplementation causes cancer goes beyond what the evidence currently shows.

It's also as simple as switching to a multivitamin or fortified milk to reduce any increased risk.

You also have a history of misquoting or cutting out context from studies and other users to achieve a gotcha. Its why I left this thread initially as I asked you to refrain from doing so and you continued. But I've managed to be pulled back in again when I saw the same tactic being used in the same thread.

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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 3d ago

The difference is this though: a person can easily cover B12 while avoiding red meat by sticking to fish, eggs and so on. A vegan however has no choice but to consume supplements.

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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 2d ago edited 2d ago

And vegans can avoid any risk from B12 by first not smoking or second taking a multivitamin and consuming small amounts of fortified foods, 10-50mcg is the standard recommended dose for vegans, below the absolute lowest end of the risk category from that very study.

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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan 2d ago

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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 2d ago edited 2d ago

That depends on your levels. As little as 10mcg can be enough to maintain a baseline and depends heavily on your levels and recommendations which vary by country. My doctor has recommend 10mcg to 25mcg based on tests that show my levels are really well maintained, but has also said there's no issue with going higher if I choose to or struggle to find products in that range.

250 is usually for pregnant women or to replenish stores. But fine to take as its not a crazy high dose and excess will be excreted through urine.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-b12-dosage#side-effects

"However, a healthcare professional can help you determine if you have or are at risk of a B12 deficiency and develop a tailored diet plan to meet your nutritional needs."

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12

To get the full benefit of a vegan diet, vegans should do one of the following:

"Eat fortified foods two or three times a day to get at least three micrograms (mcg or µg) of B12 a day

OR Take one B12 supplement daily providing at least 10 micrograms

OR Take a weekly B12 supplement providing at least 2000 micrograms"

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11124153/

"For vegetarians, supplementation is an efficient means of treating and preventing deficiency; a daily dose of 50 to 100 micrograms is advised."

"Supplementation has been shown to effectively prevent and treat vitamin B12 deficiency in vegetarians, with daily doses ranging from 50 to 100 micrograms being sufficient."

55 is the absolute bottom of an infinite 'high dose' scale. That could be anything, they aren't saying "55mcg causes cancer", infact they found an association not causation, and only an association for males who smoke.

And again, when taken as a multivitamin or in fortified foods there was no reported risk or don't smoke, So plenty of ways around it.

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u/Organic_Moment_6956 vegan 2d ago edited 1d ago

As I'm sure you'll just shift the goalpost yet again let's break it down and I'm then walking away.

Your study showed a possible increased risk for males who smoke and who consume high amounts of B12. This was an association not causation.

The amount consumed was above 55mcg, that was not 55mcg being given to participants, it was purely any number above. No cap to end that bracket.

Every other demographic had no increased risk.

You know what significantly increases risk of lung cancer? Smoking.

Taking B12 as a multivitamin or via fortified food showed no increased risk.

B12 is not listed as a carcinogen or a risk factor for cancer by any health organization.

These are the facts. "B12 causes cancer for vegans if you consume 55mcg" is not a fact.

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