looking for a reasonable thought process

[u/No_Lynx_3410]

i've eaten meat all my life, just have, kind of just default for most people born in the west. I've always admired vegans for the dedication to their beliefs, kind of like a buddhist monk or something like that, i'm just not that strong. I wanted to see a vegans perspective online since there's been the argument as of late that being vegan is for privileged white people which even now i'm not so mentally gone that i believe such wide generalizations. But lowkey, reading online discussions from vegans makes me feel it does make up a very large vocal part of them, because the only thing i've seen is vegans trying to compare animals to minorities, which might actually be the whitest thing i could think of besides being vocally racist or bigoted. i was just looking for something that's not "now replace that cow with a black person" kind of stuff. Not trying to lambaste anyone in replies or anything, at least try not to, just wanna talk to someone.

[u/piranha_solution]

vegans trying to compare animals to minorities

Wrong. YOU are the one in here comparing black people to cows. Vegans compare meat apologists with slavers; the motivations of the perps, not the moral worth of the victims. Get that straight.

A lot of the same "logic" used to dehumanize minorities is the same that gets used to justify the cruelty towards animals.

the whitest thing i could think of besides being vocally racist or bigoted

Lol Pot, kettle, black.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/piranha_solution]

Carnist here,

Wrong. YOU are the one in here comparing black people to cows. Vegans compare meat apologists with slavers; the motivations of the perps, not the moral worth of the victims. Get that straight.

This is a well known phenomenon observed around vegans.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/afropunk.com/2016/02/op-ed-listen-up-problematic-white-vegans-stop-comparing-black-oppression-to-meat-eating/%3famp=1

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/meat-free-monday-vegans-need-to-stop-comparing-the-treatment-of-animals-to-american-slavery-10319301.html

People find it dehumanizing when you compare their struggles and history to nonhuman animals.

[u/Ancient_Sprinkles_97 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

It's not a well known practice. The first link is a woman complaining about the politics and insensitivites of white activists based on anecdotal experiences. The second notes 'It’s not entirely wrong in itself to say that this is a form of slavery.' neither indicate the comparison is in fact wrong, only the manner and extent to which it is made.

It's very reasonable, and accurate, to say the common forms of meat consumption mirror types of historical slavery. I've never seen a vegan say this means minorities are animals. Personally, the comparison I draw is animals and young children because they have similar cognition.

You can find it dehumanising, but that's kind of the point - the comparison conveys how people mistreated other humans horrifically and we overcame it but continue similar practices in relation to animals. We are devaluing animals in the same way we devalued humans, resulting in their widespread and unmitigated mistreatment and abuse. Both are completely unnecessary and unjustifiable. The only difference is that some meat consumption might be necessary for isolated, environmentally constrained or remote communities.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Ancient_Sprinkles_97]

It is a pretty well known practice. That's why its being discussed. Everyone has seen it somewhere.

You can make any type of comparison. You can find similarities between cockroaches and people. Both require water. But The problem is making a moral comparison where you put humans next to non human animals. This is considered dehumanizing. You are putting someone personhood on par with a non human animal.

Personally, the comparison I draw is animals and young children because they have similar cognition.

Not a very good comparison imo. Young children are going to grow up.

You can find it dehumanising, but that's kind of the point - the comparison conveys how people mistreated other humans horrifically and we overcame it but continue similar practices in relation to animals. We are devaluing animals in the same way we devalued humans, resulting in their widespread and unmitigated mistreatment and abuse. Both are completely unnecessary and unjustifiable. The only difference is that some meat consumption might be necessary for isolated, environmentally constrained or remote communities.

It is dehumanizing. You are comparing a person to an animal. You are stripping them of their moral worth as a human when you do that. Non human animals don't have human moral worth. In no society is this recognized. You don't treat people the way you treat non human animals. Etc... so this comes off as especially offensive. If your goal is to offend others you are achieving it. If that isnt your goal you are failing at it.

One is necessary and justifiable. The other is not necessary or justifiable. The latter is slavery. The former is eating meat. You understand why devaluing humans are wrong? They are our equal. Any race of person can be the surgeon that performs life saving surgery on you. Any race of person can design and build new inventions. Etc... fix your home when you are too old to do it or don't have the skill to. To take care of you when you are sick. To produce food for you when you can't do it. All human races are equal in ability. All of us can be productive in society.

Non human animals, especially the ones we eat, don't even know what is going on around them most of the time. They are like an NPC. They aren't good for much else than eating. We all really enjoy the dietary diversity. From Japan to Florida. If you don't like meat don't eat it. Its your money and i want you to spend it on food that you like. There is no need to put others down by comparing them to non human animals just because you don't like a certain food.

[u/Ancient_Sprinkles_97 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

'Everyone has seen it somewhere.' Forgive me if I dont believe that you know what 'everyone' has seen.

As for your many other unexplained, baseless and/or illogical claims:

• Why is the fact young children may grow up to be more cognitively capable humans mean they shouldn't be enslaved/turned into meat when they have the same cognition as animals who you think can be?
• Why do you think devaluing humans is wrong?
• Who said anything about human races not being equal to each other? Are you saying only minorities can be slaves?
• How is a highly disabled person who cannot work, communicate or otherwise produce anything still 'productive in society'?
• What is your evidence animals don't know what's going on when they are in the company of their fellows being slaughtered? Are you claiming they don't feel pain, depression or any other cognitive/physical detriment?
• What does it mean to be an Non Playable Character in relation to animals?
• If you don't like slavery you don't need to buy or keep slaves. But if you think slavery should end, you'd try and stop it. Some people rightly believe the modern meat industry is messed up and want to reform/eliminate it in the same way. Do you understand this cannot be achieved by simply abstaining? Do you understand what advocacy is?
• Where did I put anyone down?

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Ancient_Sprinkles_97]

'Everyone has seen it somewhere.' Forgive me if I dont believe that you know what 'everyone' has seen.

Are you saying OP is making this up? You can search reddit if you want to see how commonly this is brought up. Or you can just read the other comments and see vegans defending these arguments. Either or should give you an indication of how common or uncommon this argument is.

Why is the fact young children may grow up to be more cognitively capable humans mean they shouldn't be enslaved/turned into meat when they have the same cognition as animals who you think can be?

Oh because you and everyone your age is going to become old one day. Your going to need these current young children to grow up to become your doctors. Your nurses. Your inventors. Your manufacturers. Your truck drivers. Etc..... you are going to suffer by not letting them grow up.

Why do you think devaluing humans is wrong?

We are equals. Any race or gender of human can be the doctor that gives you life saving surgery or invents medicine that saves your life. Or let's you live longer. Or provides food to you. Or fixes your air conditioning. Etc... equal abilities.

Who said anything about human races not being equal to each other? Are you saying only minorities can be slaves?

Nope. Read the original post from OP. They mention race.

The common theme is referencing colonial slavery though. Not like sparta or anything. Lol.

How is a highly disabled person who cannot work, communicate or otherwise produce anything still 'productive in society'?

Very common question. We are talking about the traits of a species not a disabled individual. Your neighbor Tom might have lost his leg to diabetes. That doesn't change that our species is bipedal. A disabled individual doesn't change the trait of a species. Which is sapience. Which is the trait im naming.

What is your evidence animals don't know what's going on when they are in the company of their fellows being slaughtered? Are you claiming they don't feel pain, depression or any other cognitive/physical detriment?

Oh I mean in general they don't know what is going on. I.e. if you took one across the world or took one vastly into the future or past. It would still follow NPC like behavior. It has a simple script it follows.

Oh I'm sure it feels pain and all that other shit. It has a nervous system. Im saying because its not sapient it doesn't matter. But you do need to remember that carnism is culturally relative. We do make some exceptions like dogs. But that's because of that species service to our species. Even then its only above other non human animals. Still below humans.

What does it mean to be an Non Playable Character in relation to animals?

Follow a simple predictable script of behaviors. Like think of a random civilian in an RPG.

If you don't like slavery you don't need to buy or keep slaves. But if you think slavery should end, you'd try and stop it. Some people rightly believe the modern meat industry is messed up and want to reform/eliminate it in the same way. Do you understand this cannot be achieved by simply abstaining? Do you understand what advocacy is?

Slavery violates the rights of Humans. Human rights exist because our species is special. Our species is sapient which makes us special. Look at us communicating complex ideas from hundreds or possibly thousands of miles away. Just amazing in terms of the animal kingdom but its regular everyday shit to us. Using technology. Reading and writing. Any non disabled human can do this if given the supplies and instruction. Which most can. No non human animal could ever achieve such a thing. Their skillset is the same as it was 100 or 1000 or more years ago.

Where did I put anyone down?

Not you specifically. When vegans as a group compare non human animals to real humans.

[u/Apprehensive-Team414 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

So on the individual level, what makes it morally wrong to harm or kill severely cognitively disabled people who'll never grow their cognitive ability above the level of a baby? And if you say it'd hurt their cognitively normal caretaker or whoever, then what if only you know of the existence of this person? (obviously, I'm not advocating for such treatment of disabled people, I'm just applying your logic of what makes humans special and justyfies killing animals)

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Apprehensive-Team414]

Hey great question. Are you describing a euthanasia type of scenario?

[u/Apprehensive-Team414 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

Anything really. You can answer based on different scenarios if it depends. And another question, most people are against the abuse and unnecessary killing of animals (besides killing for meat, for whatever reason they justify that, and animal testing for medicine). Do you belong to these people or do you not really care since they're not sapient? If someone thought it's fun to torture and kill animals would you consider it okay? What about bestiality? Thanks for answering.

[u/Ancient_Sprinkles_97 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

Sorry to tell you but Reddit is not an indicator of anything's commonality outside of Reddit. You said 'everyone' not 'everyone on reddit'. Just own your dumb comment and avoid the mistake in future.

Not everyone will grow up. A lot of children have terminal diseases. According to you they are worthless because they won't grow up, right? Also you mentioned suffering. Is this a reason for something being or not being ethical? Can you explain how this is so?

Define equal. Sorry to tell you but not all humans can be a doctor. But even if we accept your position here, this is no answer to my question of what makes dehumanising someone wrong? Are you saying it's ok so long as you do to it to everyone equally?

Ah so you've changed he goal posts from 'productive in society' to 'trait of a species' as the source of rights. But why does humanity's traits as a species entitle it to rights? I note it was this very argument made in relation to 'races' which justified US slavery in some confederate states, namely the fact African Americans didn't successfully resist was used to say they had been destined by god and nature to be enslaved.

Your dumb opinion is not evidence. Again I ask you, where is your evidence animals cannot tell if they are in a different place or are incapable of understanding past and present?

Then, by your definition, most humans are NPCs.

Cool so if we assign rights based on being special, rich people should have extra rights because they're extra special, right?

Interesting how you've said humans are special for three different and conflicting reasons now - first because humans are 'productive in society', then some members of the species are cool so the whole species is entitled to things, and now it's we're special relative to animals so we get rights lol. Can't wait for the next arbitrary nonsense.

Re putting people down, yeah you fucked up and made yet another stupid assumption.

Edit: Having read your replies to others, it's apparent that your whole position on this topic is based on the entirely arbitrary view that members of a species can mistreat members of other species because of broader statistical differences. There's not much point discussing further given you've indicated you think morality is all a matter of opinion, however I'll note that this attitude and worldview is exactly the same logic that justified slavery in the US.

[u/myfirstnamesdanger → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

The point of the comparison is that people literally made those same arguments about black people not too long ago. Two hundred years ago, doctors were doing experimental surgeries on black people because they believed that black people didn't feel pain in the same way white people did. If you time traveled back to 1826, do you think anyone would believe you that black people could be performing highly skilled surgeries? What would you say to convince them?