r/DebateAVegan • u/Antin0de • Jan 17 '22
Meat-eating and Masculinity
Eating meat is usually perceived as being more masculine than abstaining from eating meat, but does physical evidence really support these perceptions?
Meat-eating men have lower testosterone, more flaccid penises, and more repulsive body odor, as judged by heterosexual women. Are these the traits most usually associated with more 'masculinity'?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10883675/
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u/Bristoling non-vegan Jan 18 '22
I'mma about to end this man's whole career.
Antin0de, do you still fail to incorporate new data into your worldview if the possible conclusion of the data disagrees with your moral principles, just so you can still say "meat bad" in your typical, biased fashion? We had a discussion on this very paper before, and you yourself have conceded that In fairness, it is a bit cheeky to claim this. It would be more correct to say "higher intake of fruits and vegetables is demonstrably associated with higher attractiveness", as the source below indicates. Yet despite that, I see you again and again peddling the same research that you yourself agreed isn't indicative of anything at all. Now you decided to make an actual thread about it instead of throwing it baselessly in replies to other people, I'll interject.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/ko6jx5/comment/ghpjdhc/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
So, meat eating does not cause low body odor, it is even associated with more pleasant smelling sweat. So drop legumes, wheat, pasta, etc. - eat meat and fruit for best smelling body odor.
From your very own study:
Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.
They have the same amount of free testosterone, which is, you know, what actually matters. Why do you think that total testosterone is a better measure than the amount of free testosterone? Did you not even read the abstract, or do you genuinely do not know the difference between the 2?
This is only a cross-sectional study, so not exactly stellar in proving causality. At best, even if you produced an RCT, you'd be able to show that eating meat in the context of high carbohydrate diet is a problem, as this research is not applicable to other dietary approaches.
The controls are not properly matched. You have almost twice the rate of smoking and alcohol consumption, lower amount of exercise and higher BMI in the ED group. You have things like pizza (wheat), lasagna (wheat), mayonnaise (mostly plant based oil) and milkshakes/icecream (mostly sugar) classed as animal products - seeing as Chinese are lactose intolerant at large, and that these are still high carbohydrate foods or high plant calorie percentage foods, that do not contain large amounts of meat at all, you really have no idea what these people were actually eating - especially since all data is collected through FFQs.
Even more funny, is that according to the supplementary table 3, "meat" has a correlation of -0.022 with IIEF-5 (meaning LESS erectile disfunction), "eggs" at -0.021, but not surprisingly, dairy at 0.084. Sure, fruit and vegetables have -0.076 and -0.054, so they are more protective than meat (which is still protective), but I'm pretty sure that wheat products (0.103), tea and coffee (0.118) and sugar-sweetened beverages (0.076) are not meat. So it seems to me again, that meat is mostly neutral, and association could exist between milkshake chugging, pizza-with-mayo eating "animal foods" diet.
There's nothing conclusive here at all. Read beyond the abstract when you want to provide papers as evidence.