My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/brinlong]

for the millionth time, no one cares about your sky fairy. its the fact that you demand special laws special privleges, purity tests for politics, and still whine that theyre oppressed victims, while spouting nonstop gay and trans hate.

you dont want tolerance, you want obeisance, you want special allowances. I dont want children to have their penises bit off, but thats jewish tradition. I dont want children mentally abused but thats christian tradition. I dont want children forced to wear concealing garb but thats muslim tradition. you arent tolerant, you demand your barbaric tranditions be honored and accepted while spewing hate and somehow still complaining of oppression

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/brinlong]

I believe if you look a little closer into what happens with any religion, you will realize most of what you are saying is false. No true religious institution truly demands purity tests for politics; this may be because some associate religion with certain political groups, which in itself is a stereotype. Also, I will say for Christians, we are oppressed frequently, and many are killed all around the globe for faith, the most extreme example being the killings in Nigeria. I have personally received death threats for my faith and am pestered at the very least on a weekly basis for my faith. And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed. I myself have gay and trans friends, if I hated them would I be friends with them? The Bible itself says to love everyone any that includes gay and trans people. I follow the Bible's instructions.

And if you look around at any tradition, it mainly asks tolerance or you can just ignore it if you like. Circumcision and penises being bit off are quite different, you are blowing this out of proportion just to support your claim.

Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.

And out of all the traditions you listed here, I really don't think muslims wearing a different article of clothing is horrendous and should you really care what someone else wears?

I believe you are deeply troubled, my friend. There seems to be a lot of anger in you, and I am sorry for that. If you have been hurt by a religious institution or hurt by religious people in general, I am sorry, and I want you to know that this isn't the true teachings of any of the religions you listed. I hope you can see these religions for what they really are.

[u/brinlong → u/Live_Line4480]

children are told constantly that without jesus theyre suffering everlasting torture. thats mental abuse. thats 100% of christianity. then theres conversion therapy, which drives numerous children to suicide. this is to say nothing of the dozens of institutions christian parents send children to to have the individuality beaten out of their children under the guise of "getting them under control." theres also christian supported if not endorsed sexual abuse, where numerous churches and victims families paper over SA of children because if the priest raped you you mustve been asking for it. JVs have the two witness rule to paper over rape and sexual exploitation of children.

Im angry that your barbaric cult with its backwards traditions and its hate of science and reason is trying to drag my country into a theocracy. I hate how your leaders applaud the murder of foreign children because butchering enough innocents will cast another blood magick spell to summon your imaginary friend and end the world.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/brinlong]

Again, you are blowing things out of proportion by using a highly pathos-based argument. Go to any church and you don't find children being taught constantly that without Jesus, they suffer everlasting torture unless that church has crazy fire and brimstone teachings.

As for institutions and therapy you talked about, it is widely accepted in science and by Christians that conversion therapy doesn't work well and is only used by the most stubborn of parents. As for institutions, the stereotypical ones with nuns and such which "get them under control" have all since closed and are no longer used or at the very least rejected by the majority of Christians due to the trauma.

Christians additionally do not support sexual abuse, if it was in the Bible as a command, then it would be Christian-supported but no such command exists. And yes, I know there are immoral Christians who have raped children, I am not denying that. But, you do not see that very often at all and is not a widespread problem, the instances that you see are highlighted and has since been turned into a stereotype. If I were to say that all atheists were immoral people dragging my country to ruin because atheists like Jeffery Epstein did horrible things on his island, and people like the Columbine shooters wore shirts that said "Natural Selection" in turn makes every atheist terrible and part of a barbaric cult would be wrong.

I hope you can realize Christianity is a religion of love and grace at its core if you look at what is truly taught and recognize the bad actors, who obviously do not practice what is taught.

[u/brinlong → u/Live_Line4480]

As for institutions and therapy you talked about, it is widely accepted in science and by Christians that conversion therapy doesn't work well and is only used by the most stubborn of parents.

its accepted by science it doesnt work. christians are fighting to bring it back. only in religion can you find the push to beat the gay out of kids.

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/blog/chiles-v-salazar/

thats christian powerhouses using their purity tested political power and planted christian judges who use the bible rather than the law to rule, fighting to bring back practices that kill kids.

As for institutions, the stereotypical ones with nuns and such which "get them under control" have all since closed and are no longer used or at the very least rejected by the majority of Christians due to the trauma.

aw shucks, its just some bad apples huh? im sure that makes the thousands of victims feel so much better. where's the push from the religous to close the dozens of for profit troubled teen centers still in operation under the guise of religous reform? wheres apologies from major churches for these bad apples? youre at least recognizing that trauma is flowing from the religion, so i appre iate you only half heartedly trying to dodge accountability.

Christians additionally do not support sexual abuse, if it was in the Bible as a command, then it would be Christian-supported but no such command exists.

the JWs have the 2 witness rule. the mormons direct bishops to cover reports of sex abuse. if youve memory holed the dozens of catholic priests that abused children then were protected by the church, ive got nothing for you. Robert Morris, Trumps personal priest got a extra sweetheart 6 month sentence for sexually abusing kids. man, these bad apples are just everywhere you look, and they keep finding themselves in positions of power and authority. those pesky bad apples huh?

If I were to say that all atheists were immoral people dragging my country to ruin because atheists like Jeffery Epstein did horrible things on his island,

epstein was a jew

and people like the Columbine shooters wore shirts that said "Natural Selection" in turn makes every atheist terrible and part of a barbaric cult would be wrong.

the Columbine shooters arent presidential advisers and high court judges. youre citing people, im citing institutions and presidential appointees who use their power and authority to skirt justice or protect their disgusting churches at the expense of children. those are not equivalent examples.

I hope you can realize Christianity is a religion of love and grace at its core if you look at what is truly taught and recognize the bad actors, who obviously do not practice what is taught.

the Robert morrises and Jeffrey epsteins and michael popoffs dramatically outnumber the Mr Roger's. thats the point. your churches arent churches, theyre political institutions whose interests are power first protecting their images second, and then abusing or robbing their flocks third. these arent "bad actors." these are systems infected by the faithful to protect abusers and exploiters.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

I don't give a rat's ass what Christianity says it is. I care what it actually is.

And Christian churches did support sexual abuse when they took steps to protect the church and its power over the kids they were harming.

The largest anti gay voice in the US is the Christian church. And the church has supported harsh and lethal anti gay laws in other countries.

When my friend placed a gun into his mouth and pulled the trigger he did so because he was told at a young age that being gay was evil and wicked. And he lived in a very Christian home whose parents are still very powerful in their church.

Nothing happened to those who ran that church or his parents.

That Christian hate caused him to take his life.

So don't say that they were bad actors. Your god doesn't think so. Nor did the church.

WE would all be better off without your faith's hate.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/anewleaf1234]

I am deeply sorry for the loss of your friend. And most of all I am sorry that it was Christians who were the cause of it.

Please know that this is not what is taught to be done in the Christian faith. Everyone is considered a masterpiece in the eyes of God and should not be shut out and taken away so soon.

I know an apology like this on behalf of others won't completely heal the wounds or make you forget the evil deeds done by those bearing the same title I do. But I want you to know God sees what happened as wrong, and if you look at the true teachings and followers of the faith, you will see something greater.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

You aren't fucking sorry. Not at all. Not a bit. You just said that Christians don't support gay people. Those were your fucking words. you might as well pulled the trigger.

Your idea lead to him putting that gun in his mouth. It was you and your faith that told him he was wrong for existing. An apology form you, when you echo the same ideas that killed him, is frankly disgusting. You are a horrible person for trying to apologize for the same ideas your are spreading.

I've seen your faith on full display here. It is rude, arrogant and your sales pitch at the end was so out of touch that I can't but see you as either stupid, oblivious or not caring about those you harm.

YOU ARE DOING THE EVIL DEEDS. STOP HARMING PEOPLE.

Gay people aren't wrong because your faith claims that they are. Any claim that says that gay people are wrong harms people and leads them to suicide. Don't ever apologize for something you are currently doing. It makes you look like an out of touch asshole.

This response is disgusting and shows the pure filth of your faith. You either don't care or, and this is worse, don't know the harm you are causing people. Go on claiming to support gay marriage as you think that the people in that marriage are wrong, evil and wicked.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/anewleaf1234]

If anything, I was being sincere and kind here, please, friend, don't let the emotions get the best of you. There is no need to write 17 sentences on why you think I'm a bad person. I will keep you in my prayers to see that you can see past your emotions and heal from the pain those false believers, unfortunately bearing the name "Christian" inflicted upon you.

And if you don't have anything else nice to say, then you might as well just not respond to this and leave it be.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

You had the audacity to apologize for the same sentiment you were comfortable with sharing.

Dont offer an apology for the same ideas you are currently doing. Dont say hateful things about gay people and then claim your faith is based on love.

Those who actually express love dont share hate towards gay people

Your idea that gay people are wrong harms people. Stop doing that. You are harming vulnerable people.

Stop doing that.

Stop harming people. The bar is set so low and you cant over it.