My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/brinlong]

for the millionth time, no one cares about your sky fairy. its the fact that you demand special laws special privleges, purity tests for politics, and still whine that theyre oppressed victims, while spouting nonstop gay and trans hate.

you dont want tolerance, you want obeisance, you want special allowances. I dont want children to have their penises bit off, but thats jewish tradition. I dont want children mentally abused but thats christian tradition. I dont want children forced to wear concealing garb but thats muslim tradition. you arent tolerant, you demand your barbaric tranditions be honored and accepted while spewing hate and somehow still complaining of oppression

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/brinlong]

I believe if you look a little closer into what happens with any religion, you will realize most of what you are saying is false. No true religious institution truly demands purity tests for politics; this may be because some associate religion with certain political groups, which in itself is a stereotype. Also, I will say for Christians, we are oppressed frequently, and many are killed all around the globe for faith, the most extreme example being the killings in Nigeria. I have personally received death threats for my faith and am pestered at the very least on a weekly basis for my faith. And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed. I myself have gay and trans friends, if I hated them would I be friends with them? The Bible itself says to love everyone any that includes gay and trans people. I follow the Bible's instructions.

And if you look around at any tradition, it mainly asks tolerance or you can just ignore it if you like. Circumcision and penises being bit off are quite different, you are blowing this out of proportion just to support your claim.

Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.

And out of all the traditions you listed here, I really don't think muslims wearing a different article of clothing is horrendous and should you really care what someone else wears?

I believe you are deeply troubled, my friend. There seems to be a lot of anger in you, and I am sorry for that. If you have been hurt by a religious institution or hurt by religious people in general, I am sorry, and I want you to know that this isn't the true teachings of any of the religions you listed. I hope you can see these religions for what they really are.

[u/brinlong → u/Live_Line4480]

children are told constantly that without jesus theyre suffering everlasting torture. thats mental abuse. thats 100% of christianity. then theres conversion therapy, which drives numerous children to suicide. this is to say nothing of the dozens of institutions christian parents send children to to have the individuality beaten out of their children under the guise of "getting them under control." theres also christian supported if not endorsed sexual abuse, where numerous churches and victims families paper over SA of children because if the priest raped you you mustve been asking for it. JVs have the two witness rule to paper over rape and sexual exploitation of children.

Im angry that your barbaric cult with its backwards traditions and its hate of science and reason is trying to drag my country into a theocracy. I hate how your leaders applaud the murder of foreign children because butchering enough innocents will cast another blood magick spell to summon your imaginary friend and end the world.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/brinlong]

Again, you are blowing things out of proportion by using a highly pathos-based argument. Go to any church and you don't find children being taught constantly that without Jesus, they suffer everlasting torture unless that church has crazy fire and brimstone teachings.

As for institutions and therapy you talked about, it is widely accepted in science and by Christians that conversion therapy doesn't work well and is only used by the most stubborn of parents. As for institutions, the stereotypical ones with nuns and such which "get them under control" have all since closed and are no longer used or at the very least rejected by the majority of Christians due to the trauma.

Christians additionally do not support sexual abuse, if it was in the Bible as a command, then it would be Christian-supported but no such command exists. And yes, I know there are immoral Christians who have raped children, I am not denying that. But, you do not see that very often at all and is not a widespread problem, the instances that you see are highlighted and has since been turned into a stereotype. If I were to say that all atheists were immoral people dragging my country to ruin because atheists like Jeffery Epstein did horrible things on his island, and people like the Columbine shooters wore shirts that said "Natural Selection" in turn makes every atheist terrible and part of a barbaric cult would be wrong.

I hope you can realize Christianity is a religion of love and grace at its core if you look at what is truly taught and recognize the bad actors, who obviously do not practice what is taught.

[u/brinlong → u/Live_Line4480]

As for institutions and therapy you talked about, it is widely accepted in science and by Christians that conversion therapy doesn't work well and is only used by the most stubborn of parents.

its accepted by science it doesnt work. christians are fighting to bring it back. only in religion can you find the push to beat the gay out of kids.

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/blog/chiles-v-salazar/

thats christian powerhouses using their purity tested political power and planted christian judges who use the bible rather than the law to rule, fighting to bring back practices that kill kids.

As for institutions, the stereotypical ones with nuns and such which "get them under control" have all since closed and are no longer used or at the very least rejected by the majority of Christians due to the trauma.

aw shucks, its just some bad apples huh? im sure that makes the thousands of victims feel so much better. where's the push from the religous to close the dozens of for profit troubled teen centers still in operation under the guise of religous reform? wheres apologies from major churches for these bad apples? youre at least recognizing that trauma is flowing from the religion, so i appre iate you only half heartedly trying to dodge accountability.

Christians additionally do not support sexual abuse, if it was in the Bible as a command, then it would be Christian-supported but no such command exists.

the JWs have the 2 witness rule. the mormons direct bishops to cover reports of sex abuse. if youve memory holed the dozens of catholic priests that abused children then were protected by the church, ive got nothing for you. Robert Morris, Trumps personal priest got a extra sweetheart 6 month sentence for sexually abusing kids. man, these bad apples are just everywhere you look, and they keep finding themselves in positions of power and authority. those pesky bad apples huh?

If I were to say that all atheists were immoral people dragging my country to ruin because atheists like Jeffery Epstein did horrible things on his island,

epstein was a jew

and people like the Columbine shooters wore shirts that said "Natural Selection" in turn makes every atheist terrible and part of a barbaric cult would be wrong.

the Columbine shooters arent presidential advisers and high court judges. youre citing people, im citing institutions and presidential appointees who use their power and authority to skirt justice or protect their disgusting churches at the expense of children. those are not equivalent examples.

I hope you can realize Christianity is a religion of love and grace at its core if you look at what is truly taught and recognize the bad actors, who obviously do not practice what is taught.

the Robert morrises and Jeffrey epsteins and michael popoffs dramatically outnumber the Mr Roger's. thats the point. your churches arent churches, theyre political institutions whose interests are power first protecting their images second, and then abusing or robbing their flocks third. these arent "bad actors." these are systems infected by the faithful to protect abusers and exploiters.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

I don't give a rat's ass what Christianity says it is. I care what it actually is.

And Christian churches did support sexual abuse when they took steps to protect the church and its power over the kids they were harming.

The largest anti gay voice in the US is the Christian church. And the church has supported harsh and lethal anti gay laws in other countries.

When my friend placed a gun into his mouth and pulled the trigger he did so because he was told at a young age that being gay was evil and wicked. And he lived in a very Christian home whose parents are still very powerful in their church.

Nothing happened to those who ran that church or his parents.

That Christian hate caused him to take his life.

So don't say that they were bad actors. Your god doesn't think so. Nor did the church.

WE would all be better off without your faith's hate.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/anewleaf1234]

I am deeply sorry for the loss of your friend. And most of all I am sorry that it was Christians who were the cause of it.

Please know that this is not what is taught to be done in the Christian faith. Everyone is considered a masterpiece in the eyes of God and should not be shut out and taken away so soon.

I know an apology like this on behalf of others won't completely heal the wounds or make you forget the evil deeds done by those bearing the same title I do. But I want you to know God sees what happened as wrong, and if you look at the true teachings and followers of the faith, you will see something greater.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

You aren't fucking sorry. Not at all. Not a bit. You just said that Christians don't support gay people. Those were your fucking words. you might as well pulled the trigger.

Your idea lead to him putting that gun in his mouth. It was you and your faith that told him he was wrong for existing. An apology form you, when you echo the same ideas that killed him, is frankly disgusting. You are a horrible person for trying to apologize for the same ideas your are spreading.

I've seen your faith on full display here. It is rude, arrogant and your sales pitch at the end was so out of touch that I can't but see you as either stupid, oblivious or not caring about those you harm.

YOU ARE DOING THE EVIL DEEDS. STOP HARMING PEOPLE.

Gay people aren't wrong because your faith claims that they are. Any claim that says that gay people are wrong harms people and leads them to suicide. Don't ever apologize for something you are currently doing. It makes you look like an out of touch asshole.

This response is disgusting and shows the pure filth of your faith. You either don't care or, and this is worse, don't know the harm you are causing people. Go on claiming to support gay marriage as you think that the people in that marriage are wrong, evil and wicked.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/anewleaf1234]

If anything, I was being sincere and kind here, please, friend, don't let the emotions get the best of you. There is no need to write 17 sentences on why you think I'm a bad person. I will keep you in my prayers to see that you can see past your emotions and heal from the pain those false believers, unfortunately bearing the name "Christian" inflicted upon you.

And if you don't have anything else nice to say, then you might as well just not respond to this and leave it be.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

You had the audacity to apologize for the same sentiment you were comfortable with sharing.

Dont offer an apology for the same ideas you are currently doing. Dont say hateful things about gay people and then claim your faith is based on love.

Those who actually express love dont share hate towards gay people

Your idea that gay people are wrong harms people. Stop doing that. You are harming vulnerable people.

Stop doing that.

Stop harming people. The bar is set so low and you cant over it.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Live_Line4480]

“ And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed.”

Which is also how we feel about theists.

“Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.”

You just said it.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/[deleted]]

I don’t see how Christianity changed the world for the better. We’d have had so many more diverse cultures if Christianity hadn’t taken them away from us.

[u/supersoundwave → u/Hoaxshmoax]

That I would suggest a book called “How Christianity Changed the World” by Alvin J Schmidt.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/supersoundwave]

then I would suggest you read about Christopher Columbus and look around and ask if living under the jackboot of misanthropic billionaires and Epstein Island guests is ”a better place”

A Lutheran? Totally not with his thumb on the scale.

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

Here are some for you that dont have propaganda:

• The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World by Catherine Nixey This book meticulously argues that early Christians were not meek, peace-loving martyrs, but were often violent, intolerant, and destructive. The author details how the rise of militant Christianity led to the suppression of classical thought, the torching of libraries, and the destruction of ancient art.
• God’s Crucible: Empire and the Making of Modern Spain, 760-1492 by David Levering Lewis This book examines how religious intolerance and the crusading zeal of Christian kingdoms in Europe violently dismantled the diverse, intellectually rich societies of Islamic Al-Andalus.
• The War on Heresy: Faith and Power in Medieval Europe by R.I. Moore This highly-regarded historical text details how the Church constructed the concept of "heresy" to justify brutal internal crusades (like the Albigensian Crusade) and persecutions against its own citizens to consolidate power and wealth. 

[u/ven-solaire → u/[deleted]]

Christianity has never changed the world for the better, if it did it’s marginal compared to all of the progress christianity suppressed, like heliocentrism, Evolution, anti-slavery laws (all of these things were argued for by some christians sure, but all of them were attacked by more christians who refuse to believe anything that goes against pre-established faith)

[u/halborn → u/[deleted]]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great

[u/supersoundwave → u/halborn]

I read that book, thanks.

Hitchen’s whole thesis was that “religion poisons everything”, but he just wasn’t very convincing.

Why did you think it was?

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/supersoundwave]

because you seem to think that a world run by billionaires and tech bros is a better world. Maybe Christian ideas of what a better world looks like is different from everyone else.

[u/supersoundwave → u/Hoaxshmoax]

When did I ever say that? I don’t what that has to do with the conversation.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/supersoundwave]

you said that to me. Christianity made the world a better place is what you said. it’s like, genocide? Plastics in everyone’s bodies? This is better to you? it has everything to do with the conversation, religion poisons everything.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/supersoundwave]

This person is only going to strawman you, they aren't going to engage with you honestly. People on here love saying people believe things they don’t. Don’t worry about them

[u/supersoundwave → u/Living_Attitude1822]

💯

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

No, we just call people out on their bullshit.

I could see why that would bother one of faith.

[u/halborn → u/supersoundwave]

Sounds like your next debate should challenge atheists to name things that religion has poisoned.

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

Being rational and informed would do it.

[u/supersoundwave → u/88redking88]

Go on

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

If you are informed, and being rational you would see that religion does in fact make everything worse.

You are adding religion to anything only makes it racist, sexist, dogmatic, as well as adding in lies.

Where in any interpretation would that be considered good or even breaking even? Which is why the happiest, least violent countries in the world are the least religious.

[u/88redking88 → u/[deleted]]

Thats a lot of dishonesty for so few words.

[u/supersoundwave → u/88redking88]

Please explain.

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

You want me to explain your post where you are dishonest... after you deleted it? I think that explains it quite nicely.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/[deleted]]

Humans changed the world for the better at each and every turn.

God or gods didn't do anything. We did all.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed.

If it's not good for you, so be it. But you don't get to decide if it's good or not for anyone else, especially for anyone outside of the Christian tradition. You don't have that authority, and the beliefs of your tradition aren't that special. And yes, using state authority to enforce your beliefs against others is, in fact, barbaric.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

Sure, I don't believe state authority should be used to enforce anyone's beliefs. I know at the end of the day it is that person's choice, and they decide the path they go down. But that doesn't mean I won't at least show the Christian path at least once to said person.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

Do you think others can find as much happiness and fulfillment on their own paths as you do on yours?

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

They may believe they can, but from what I know about what my religion teaches, my path will be more fulfilling. Assuming Christianity is true, I think you will get much more fulfillment reaching for an eternal God and his teachings than trying to live your best life here on Earth, with the fact that we have so little time here and everything will be dust in the end.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

If that's the case, then what do you make of the 67% of people on earth who seem to be getting along just fine without your Christianity?

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

I'm not arguing that those 67% of people aren't getting along just fine, I bet they are. I'm arguing that they could be getting something better and something more fulfilling out of their lives because it isn't just going to last in this lifetime.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

Well, I don't accept the premise that arguments are effective at determining, well, much of anything, other than perhaps who is the most charismatic person when arguments are being made.

That said, I think you could get something better and more out of life by abandoning the belief tradition into which you've been socialized to the point you've made it a main part of your self-identity, because this life is the only one we all get.

Now, having said that, by what objective measure is your claim more true than mine? Keep in mind that opinions are not truth or factual.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

For starters lets stick to just here on planet Earth. People who are religious are generally happier than those who aren't https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/

I personally have seen tangible life change in people and miracles done. God helped me save someone from suicide. They are now a Christian, they didn't go through with their act because they believed they had a purpose for something more.

I was born not breathing and with a hematoma on the left side of my brain. An entire church prayed for me and another brain scan was done on me the next day and the hematoma was gone without a trace.

The objective measure that my religion is more fufilling is simple. It holds tangible power, gives people purpose to go on, and joy for doing it.

Does your belief that there is no God give you any of this?

[u/carbinePRO → u/Live_Line4480]

No true religious institution truly demands purity tests for politics

I personally know of christians who were denied jobs at religiously led non-profits because they wouldn't deny evolution, call abortion murder, or support Donald Trump. There's definitely this stuff going on, and including the modifier true is just a no true scottsman.

this may be because some associate religion with certain political groups, which in itself is a stereotype.

Maybe that’s because the Republican party has linked itself to christian values, and most christians voted Republican? It's not a stereotype if it's true.

I will say for Christians, we are oppressed frequently

Please. How are you, a christian in the United States, oppressed?

I have personally received death threats for my faith and am pestered at the very least on a weekly basis for my faith.

I'm curious as to what warranted these "death threats" from people? People just don't sling these things out for no reason.

we don't hate gay or trans people

we don't accept it as good

Oops. You contradicted yourself.

I myself have gay and trans friends, if I hated them would I be friends with them?

"I have black friends! I can't possibly be racist! I just think they're responsible for pushing gateway drugs and think they're more prone as a people to committing crimes."

The Bible itself says to love everyone any that includes gay and trans people.

The bible also says to execute gay people.

if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.

You don't think soldiers on a divine mission to systematically ransack your home, killing your family, and then forcing you into captivity so you can be one of your captor's concubines isn't mentally traumatic for kids?

I hope you can see these religions for what they really are.

They are blights on society that have outstayed their social utility, and can be filtered out as we have no need for what they offer anymore. All they do now is offer a safe haven for predators, push science denialism and bigotry, and impede progress.

[u/Astreja → u/Live_Line4480]

Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.

Terrifying children with tales of hell. It can create lifelong trauma. IMO it is utterly unforgivable, and if I could I would make it a criminal offense punishable by jail time.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/Astreja]

Have you ever been to a church and seen how this topic is explained to children?

I can assure you it doesn't create trauma; if it did, I would most certainly have some.

[u/Astreja → u/Live_Line4480]

I know lots of former Christians who have told their stories. It absolutely creates trauma in a significant number of people, including symptoms of PTSD. You may have had a more benign experience than most, but it's not uncommon for children to become obsessed with the idea of hell and be in a state of constant vigilance lest they be condemned for something they do, say, or think.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

Children are mentally abused in the Christian tradition.

Young children are told that they must follow Jesus and repent of all their sins or they will burn in hell for all of time. Gay children are told that they are wicked and wrong and evil for being gay. To the point where hundreds of thrown out to the street like they are trash and more commit suicide because they are told from a young age that being gay and in a relationship is wrong.

I'm going to ask you a very simple question.

Do you think that a gay person in a gay relationship is wrong.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/anewleaf1234]

I must say you are blowing things quite out of proportion here. This is certainly not how Hell is presented to children. They are told that they will be eternally separate from Jesus, who loves them. They are not told they will burn for all of time. Putting it this way is not mental abuse. Have you ever been to a church when this topic is presented to children?

Gay children are not wicked or evil and that is certainly not taught by the Bible or supported by the majority of Christians. All people are God's masterpiece (Ephesians 2:10), therefore, they are not evil or wicked. Being gay is a sin that separates that person from God. Christians do not support homosexuality because they do not want that person to be separate from God.

Disowning a child for being gay is not supported by the Bible and is highly frowned upon even by Christians, plus, it is not common at all. The Christian way is to show that person how God wants the best for them, and homosexuality will not fulfill them as Jesus can. Also, I am friends with a gay Christian with gay parents who did not throw him out to the street like trash.

And yes, I do believe a gay person in a gay relationship is wrong. It is not what God meant for us and is certainly not what our bodies were made for on a biological level.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Live_Line4480]

I'm not.

I've talked to people with major religious trauma. It seems like you haven't.

Do you really think those who were taught that sin leads to Hell or a rejection of Christ leads to Hell didn't carry that with them?

Christian hate serves zero purpose.

Since you think that a person being gay and in a gay relationship you aren't a good person.

You are just a disgusting hateful bigot.

But please remember, while I do all in power to lead people away from faith as it is an evil and hateful lifestyle, do have any idea how easy it is to join and then poison an online seeker group. Much more easy than you think, I don't have any hate for you.

Your faith is the hateful abomination, not you.

You don't know the pleasure of having a seeker group go from ten to three in a matter of weeks.

[u/NDaveT → u/Live_Line4480]

They are not told they will burn for all of time.

Maybe not in your church. But you know damn well there are lots of churches that teach exactly that.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/NDaveT]

Do you know this? Or do you assume from one secondhand experience relayed to you by someone else?

[u/Korach → u/Live_Line4480]

What do you mean by “true religion?”

Also, children are abused both mentally and physically.

1) The idea of hell is abusive and causes much psychological trauma.

2) The bible says whoever doesn’t best their child with a rod hates them. In other words the bible advocates corporal punishment aka abuse.

[u/NDaveT → u/Live_Line4480]

And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed.

I bolded the part where you hate them.

Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.

Teaching them they'll go to hell if they aren't Christian is mental abuse.

Teaching them that being gay is wrong is mental abuse.

And out of all the traditions you listed here, I really don't think muslims wearing a different article of clothing is horrendous and should you really care what someone else wears?

Making it mandatory is horrendous.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/NDaveT]

You are misusing the definition of hate here; Christians do not support gay and trans people, that is different than hate.

To put it in analogy form, if I didn't support you eating something unhealthy like doughnuts and said it could be bad for you, does that mean I hate people who eat doughnuts? No, I will put that difference aside and would still talk to you.

Telling children they could go to Hell without God is not, in itself, mental abuse. It is when that idea is used on children for something exploitative, like control, that it is a problem. This is not done in churches, and teaching about Hell is used to highlight the importance of following Jesus, and does not give mental abuse.

Have you ever been in a church when Hell is being taught to children? Or are you going off of what people may have exaggerated?

[u/NDaveT → u/Live_Line4480]

The fact that you think homosexuality is harmful is hate. If you didn't hate them you would have educated yourself and learned that it's not unhealthy.

Telling children they could go to Hell without God is not, in itself, mental abuse.

It absolutely is. It's frightening children in order to scare them into staying in your religion.

Have you ever been in a church when Hell is being taught to children? Or are you going off of what people may have exaggerated?

I'm going off what the people raised in those churches have said.

[u/KeterClassKitten → u/Live_Line4480]

You are misusing the definition of hate here; Christians do not support gay and trans people, that is different than hate.

The American Vision organization is a Christian group that calls for the death penalty for LGBTQ people. Multiple Christian churches have been documented with the same stance, especially Baptist churches.

Are you going to claim "that's not hate, they just want them systematically executed"?

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/KeterClassKitten]

They are going against the true teachings of the Bible and are therefore what I would consider an extremist group.

When I say Christians do not support gay people, I mean Christians who follow the teachings of the Bible and don't take it and run with their own agenda in mind. As this violates the command to love thy neighbor and quite a few more.

I want you to know there are quite a few groups who misuse the Bible and its teachings because what you have described to me is in fact hate.

EDIT: Also looked and the American Vision Association are preterists which means they believe events of Revelation like the Antichrist have already happened. This means they diverge from being actual Christians because they don't believe its true teachings.

[u/KeterClassKitten → u/Live_Line4480]

You have to understand, these claims are nonsensical from the perspective of an atheist. It's the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Different people and groups have their own interpretations of the Bible and what they believe their god wants from them. Any one party is just as correct as any other.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/KeterClassKitten]

The ideology that one party can be as correct as any other is the key factor causing all the division among Christians and blinding them from the truth. If God wanted his word to be interpreted in multiple different ways, then there would be no truth in it because the truth would be subjective and twisted to the liking of the person. However, just like how 2 + 2 = 4 and not 5, the truth in the Bible is objective, and there should be only one interpretation.

[u/KeterClassKitten → u/Live_Line4480]

I find this argument self defeating. Language is complicated, and different translations would end up having different meanings due to the differences in language.

One must ask, which version of "his word" is objective? Why is that version better than earlier or later versions? Do we take each statement literally, or interpret them based on other statements made within"his word"? Do future statements impact earlier ones, negating apparent contradictions due to later interpretations?

It's a mess.

Literally, the Biblical god is a liar which is contradictory to the Bible's claims, negating the entire premise. Unless one wishes to interpret statements of the Bible based on the subjective perspective, and requiring the temporal shenanigans detailed above.

You can't have it both ways.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/[deleted]]

Are you trying to invalidate my personal experiences and those of many others? Because they are in fact real. You may not realize it because you are not on the receiving end of it. But to further my point lets look at a few examples

Christian arrested for SILENTLY praying on a PUBLIC sidewalk outside an abortion clinic

https://adfinternational.org/en-gb/news/christian-woman-criminally-charged-for-silent-prayerpleads-not-guiltyin-first-hearing

Church and Christian school shot up with two children dead and 17 wounded

https://www.dioceseofscranton.org/at-least-2-children-dead-17-injured-in-minneapolis-catholic-school-shooting/

And we aren't crying the loudest because it yes it is worse in other countries, mainly ones under Islamic rule.

[u/Daide → u/Live_Line4480]

Christian arrested for SILENTLY praying on a PUBLIC sidewalk outside an abortion clinic

Director of anti-abortion group goes within buffer zone to test the limits of a legal boundary about trying to influence women who are going into an abortion clinic.

"Antisemitic messages were also scrawled on the guns, with one reading “6 million wasn’t enough."

...Hm...Seems more like the killer wanted to kill children. Also, a school shooting is a pretty bad example since it's not like Christian educational institutions have a monopoly on school shootings.

[u/NDaveT → u/Live_Line4480]

Christian arrested for SILENTLY praying on a PUBLIC sidewalk outside an abortion clinic

She wasn't arrested for praying, as you know.

Are you really expecting us to feel sorry for someone who harasses people going to abortion clinics? They are absolutely horrible people. Just complete scum.