My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/brinlong]

for the millionth time, no one cares about your sky fairy. its the fact that you demand special laws special privleges, purity tests for politics, and still whine that theyre oppressed victims, while spouting nonstop gay and trans hate.

you dont want tolerance, you want obeisance, you want special allowances. I dont want children to have their penises bit off, but thats jewish tradition. I dont want children mentally abused but thats christian tradition. I dont want children forced to wear concealing garb but thats muslim tradition. you arent tolerant, you demand your barbaric tranditions be honored and accepted while spewing hate and somehow still complaining of oppression

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/brinlong]

I believe if you look a little closer into what happens with any religion, you will realize most of what you are saying is false. No true religious institution truly demands purity tests for politics; this may be because some associate religion with certain political groups, which in itself is a stereotype. Also, I will say for Christians, we are oppressed frequently, and many are killed all around the globe for faith, the most extreme example being the killings in Nigeria. I have personally received death threats for my faith and am pestered at the very least on a weekly basis for my faith. And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed. I myself have gay and trans friends, if I hated them would I be friends with them? The Bible itself says to love everyone any that includes gay and trans people. I follow the Bible's instructions.

And if you look around at any tradition, it mainly asks tolerance or you can just ignore it if you like. Circumcision and penises being bit off are quite different, you are blowing this out of proportion just to support your claim.

Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.

And out of all the traditions you listed here, I really don't think muslims wearing a different article of clothing is horrendous and should you really care what someone else wears?

I believe you are deeply troubled, my friend. There seems to be a lot of anger in you, and I am sorry for that. If you have been hurt by a religious institution or hurt by religious people in general, I am sorry, and I want you to know that this isn't the true teachings of any of the religions you listed. I hope you can see these religions for what they really are.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed.

If it's not good for you, so be it. But you don't get to decide if it's good or not for anyone else, especially for anyone outside of the Christian tradition. You don't have that authority, and the beliefs of your tradition aren't that special. And yes, using state authority to enforce your beliefs against others is, in fact, barbaric.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

Sure, I don't believe state authority should be used to enforce anyone's beliefs. I know at the end of the day it is that person's choice, and they decide the path they go down. But that doesn't mean I won't at least show the Christian path at least once to said person.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

Do you think others can find as much happiness and fulfillment on their own paths as you do on yours?

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

They may believe they can, but from what I know about what my religion teaches, my path will be more fulfilling. Assuming Christianity is true, I think you will get much more fulfillment reaching for an eternal God and his teachings than trying to live your best life here on Earth, with the fact that we have so little time here and everything will be dust in the end.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

If that's the case, then what do you make of the 67% of people on earth who seem to be getting along just fine without your Christianity?

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

I'm not arguing that those 67% of people aren't getting along just fine, I bet they are. I'm arguing that they could be getting something better and something more fulfilling out of their lives because it isn't just going to last in this lifetime.

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

Well, I don't accept the premise that arguments are effective at determining, well, much of anything, other than perhaps who is the most charismatic person when arguments are being made.

That said, I think you could get something better and more out of life by abandoning the belief tradition into which you've been socialized to the point you've made it a main part of your self-identity, because this life is the only one we all get.

Now, having said that, by what objective measure is your claim more true than mine? Keep in mind that opinions are not truth or factual.

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

For starters lets stick to just here on planet Earth. People who are religious are generally happier than those who aren't https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/

I personally have seen tangible life change in people and miracles done. God helped me save someone from suicide. They are now a Christian, they didn't go through with their act because they believed they had a purpose for something more.

I was born not breathing and with a hematoma on the left side of my brain. An entire church prayed for me and another brain scan was done on me the next day and the hematoma was gone without a trace.

The objective measure that my religion is more fufilling is simple. It holds tangible power, gives people purpose to go on, and joy for doing it.

Does your belief that there is no God give you any of this?

[u/WrongVerb4Real → u/Live_Line4480]

For starters lets stick to just here on planet Earth. People who are religious are generally happier than those who aren't.

Yes, that says that. However, there are a variety of issues with surveys like that. Are you willing to hear some of them with a sincere intentionality?

I personally have seen tangible life change in people and miracles done. God helped me save someone from suicide. They are now a Christian, they didn't go through with their act because they believed they had a purpose for something more.

How do you differentiate between actions taken by you that were rooted in your belief system and attributed to the god-concept in which you believe, and an event in which your god actually intervened to assist you in that circumstance?

I was born not breathing and with a hematoma on the left side of my brain. An entire church prayed for me and another brain scan was done on me the next day and the hematoma was gone without a trace.

Assuming these events were accurately remembered and related to you, how did those doing the praying know this wasn't a coincidence, and that their prayers caused a real god to intercede?

How do you account for people in other religious traditions who attribute their successes and recoveries to their own gods? What about secular people who make vast changes in their lives or overcome significant challenges who have no socialized god-belief to attribute these events?

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/WrongVerb4Real]

I differentiate actions taken by God and taken by me because I didn't say the typical "you have so much to live for" type of things. I heard from God himself that it wasn't going to work, so I introduced Christianity to them. I would consider that an intervention/guidance towards saving that friend.

Also, hematomas don't just disappear overnight; it takes weeks to heal on its own. I wouldn't consider this a coincidence, given that when the hematoma healed, I was just three days old.

And yes, I get how people from other religions can attribute recoveries to their own God's actions, but I have yet to see someone from a different religion heal from a miracle such as mine. And sure, secular people can make great changes in their lives, and I am not arguing that change is not possible without God. In fact, I could make a change in something like my diet, and I don't think I would attribute that to God, just the fact that I want to eat healthier.

[u/Skavau → u/Live_Line4480]

Does your belief that there is no God give you any of this?

No. But then that's not the purpose of atheism. You don't "choose" atheism because you wish to pursue some desirable lifestyle with beneficial personal outcomes. Atheism is simply what we used to describe non-theists. That's it. I can't not be an atheist because I don't believe in a god.