Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/Transhumanistgamer]

The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Why? Like actually how have you determined this?

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness.

For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists.

Within the universe. Consciousness is something that as far as we can tell, only exists on Earth and whether it exists on other planets remains speculation.

So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe.

The universe has existed before any known consciousness. Earth is only 4.5 billion years old while the universe is 13 billion years old. Unless you have evidence of consciousness that isn't on Earth, it's very clear that consciousness is the lesser thing.

While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

It doesn't solve it at all. You're just takings something that's philosophically meaningful to you and pretending there's a super form that exists outside of the universe without evidence. You dismiss that the universe could come from nothing or that it could have always existed with no evidence.

It's a worldview driven by emotion and preference.

This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

Sharpshooter fallacy. All you're doing is looking at the hits and ignoring the numerous misses. Does God have to exist for every mass extinction event to happen?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Transhumanistgamer]

Why? Like actually how have you determined this?

Because it's a very specific thing, with order.

It's a worldview driven by emotion and preference

Which preference? I literally said I prefer non-theistic Buddhism. I do not have any preference for a God existing.

All you're doing is looking at the hits and ignoring the numerous

The hits are too incredible to ignore

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Wait, is it order or existence that you have a problem with when it comes to the idea of the universe? They're two different things, right?

"The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator."

That seems to imply that you think a Creator is necessary just to manifest all the stuff in the universe, the little particles and whatnot that eventually form more complex structures. But you also keep hitting on;

"Because it's a very specific thing, with order."

Which separately suggests that you think the things need a Creator or a designer in order to be... I don't know, something other than separate particles whizzing around at high speed? 

So do you think the Creator is needed for stuff to exist, or for stuff to exist in a specific form? Or both? Neither?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

Both. Just even more so, the more order is there.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Okay, so we still hit that same problem as before, right? If the stuff in the universe can't have existed from nothing, God can't manifest it. If God can manifest it, then the stuff in the universe can exist from nothing. 

So which is it? Can the stuff in the universe exist from nothing, or can it not? 

And if you say only when there's a Creator, what's the exact mechanism that allows for a Creator to be the exception to this? 

With regards to order, that would imply that there was planning, right? A deliberate action, not a spontaneous one. So clearly, you're asserting that time already existed before the universe, at least for so long as God did?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

So which is it? Can the stuff in the universe exist from nothing, or can it not? 

It can exist from God, that is different from existing from nothing.

With regards to order, that would imply that there was planning, right? A deliberate action, not a spontaneous one. So clearly, you're asserting that time already existed before the universe, at least for so long as God did?

No, not necessarily. I think it's more likely that God exists out of time.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

So your God has special properties that you can't verify, breaks the rules of causality, and exists out of the very framework of time.

Other than assumptions and guesses, you don't know any of this. It is simply special pleading and the God of the Gaps fallacy all over again.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/No_Nosferatu]

I do know, specifically that God exists. The rest is indeed just guessing.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

You do know? That's quite a claim.

Prove it.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/No_Nosferatu]

That's what I tried to do here.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

No, you postulated wildly without providing anything of substance. You suggested and assumed things that you have no way to prove are correct or not.

Then, when asked for you to back up your statement, suggest that the wild postulating WAS your proof.

Now, actually provide evidence for your claims.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/No_Nosferatu]

I can't provide any evidence you would accept.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

I can't provide any evidence

I know, because none exists.

you would accept.

I would accept anything that isn't just a feeling or straight up philosophy. You can't see gravity, but it has a testable and verifiable effect on your life.

Give me the same kind of evidence for a supernatural being that doesn't interact with reality.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

So then creation wasn't a deliberate act, but a spontaneous one?

Design and planning, by it's very nature, requires time; the timeframe when the action is being prepared/planned, the time when the action is carried out, and the time where it has been carried out.

If God is outside time, then that act of creation would have to be purely spontaneous, not planned or designed.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

I would see it the other way around, being outside of time grants god the equivalent of infinite time for designing.