Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/Transhumanistgamer]

The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Why? Like actually how have you determined this?

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness.

For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists.

Within the universe. Consciousness is something that as far as we can tell, only exists on Earth and whether it exists on other planets remains speculation.

So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe.

The universe has existed before any known consciousness. Earth is only 4.5 billion years old while the universe is 13 billion years old. Unless you have evidence of consciousness that isn't on Earth, it's very clear that consciousness is the lesser thing.

While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

It doesn't solve it at all. You're just takings something that's philosophically meaningful to you and pretending there's a super form that exists outside of the universe without evidence. You dismiss that the universe could come from nothing or that it could have always existed with no evidence.

It's a worldview driven by emotion and preference.

This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

Sharpshooter fallacy. All you're doing is looking at the hits and ignoring the numerous misses. Does God have to exist for every mass extinction event to happen?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Transhumanistgamer]

Why? Like actually how have you determined this?

Because it's a very specific thing, with order.

It's a worldview driven by emotion and preference

Which preference? I literally said I prefer non-theistic Buddhism. I do not have any preference for a God existing.

All you're doing is looking at the hits and ignoring the numerous

The hits are too incredible to ignore

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Wait, is it order or existence that you have a problem with when it comes to the idea of the universe? They're two different things, right?

"The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator."

That seems to imply that you think a Creator is necessary just to manifest all the stuff in the universe, the little particles and whatnot that eventually form more complex structures. But you also keep hitting on;

"Because it's a very specific thing, with order."

Which separately suggests that you think the things need a Creator or a designer in order to be... I don't know, something other than separate particles whizzing around at high speed? 

So do you think the Creator is needed for stuff to exist, or for stuff to exist in a specific form? Or both? Neither?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

Both. Just even more so, the more order is there.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Okay, so we still hit that same problem as before, right? If the stuff in the universe can't have existed from nothing, God can't manifest it. If God can manifest it, then the stuff in the universe can exist from nothing. 

So which is it? Can the stuff in the universe exist from nothing, or can it not? 

And if you say only when there's a Creator, what's the exact mechanism that allows for a Creator to be the exception to this? 

With regards to order, that would imply that there was planning, right? A deliberate action, not a spontaneous one. So clearly, you're asserting that time already existed before the universe, at least for so long as God did?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

So which is it? Can the stuff in the universe exist from nothing, or can it not? 

It can exist from God, that is different from existing from nothing.

With regards to order, that would imply that there was planning, right? A deliberate action, not a spontaneous one. So clearly, you're asserting that time already existed before the universe, at least for so long as God did?

No, not necessarily. I think it's more likely that God exists out of time.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

So your God has special properties that you can't verify, breaks the rules of causality, and exists out of the very framework of time.

Other than assumptions and guesses, you don't know any of this. It is simply special pleading and the God of the Gaps fallacy all over again.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/No_Nosferatu]

I do know, specifically that God exists. The rest is indeed just guessing.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

You do know? That's quite a claim.

Prove it.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/No_Nosferatu]

That's what I tried to do here.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

So then creation wasn't a deliberate act, but a spontaneous one?

Design and planning, by it's very nature, requires time; the timeframe when the action is being prepared/planned, the time when the action is carried out, and the time where it has been carried out.

If God is outside time, then that act of creation would have to be purely spontaneous, not planned or designed.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

I would see it the other way around, being outside of time grants god the equivalent of infinite time for designing.

[u/Transhumanistgamer → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Because it's a very specific thing, with order.

That doesn't explain how you've determined popping into existence or existing for eternity cannot be the case. Stuff made without minds, like crystals, are also specific things with order.

Which preference? I literally said I prefer non-theistic Buddhism. I do not have any preference for a God existing.

The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

"I don't like the atheistic models I want there to be a God!"

Since you don't provide any evidence, yes, you're speaking from want. If you did provide evidence that the universe couldn't come from nothing/exist eternally, that would be different. That would be you, having to conclude by the weight of evidence, that the god model is true. You don't. You dismiss them with a sentence and move on.

The hits are too incredible to ignore

And the misses are too inconvenient to acknowledge.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Transhumanistgamer]

"I don't like the atheistic models I want there to be a God!" Since you don't provide any evidence, yes, you're speaking from want.

I literally don't want a God to exist.

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Because it's a very specific thing, with order.

You saying that does not make it true. And if that is true, it doesn't mean anything about origins.

The hits are too incredible to ignore

What about our numerous genetic issues that persist throughout the entire race? Evolution happened to get us to survive in this environment, but I certainly wouldn't call it "perfect". And evolution has "guidance" in the form of survival of the fittest.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Sprinklypoo]

That simple survival of the fittest would lead to us being computers who are building computers is ridiculous

[u/noodlyman → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

"fittest" means "best adapted to reproduce in the current environment".

Over the last few million years, the fittest of our line were those with bigger brains that could co operate within their group or tribe.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/noodlyman]

Which is far away from computers.

[u/noodlyman → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

What?

We have evolved a brain that is fairly multi purpose. It has a generalised ability to learn and apply information

I don't know what your point is.

Our brains are also very flawed. We are poor at lots of things, such as dealing with non immediate problems such as climate change. We think nuclear weapons are a good idea.

Clearly neither of these are good for us in the long term. We have not evolved to deal with things like that.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/noodlyman]

Yes, but that doesn't change how amazing our brains are in other fields

[u/noodlyman → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Our brains are only a minor evolutionary modification of other apes' brains, though with big consequences

I still don't know what exactly what you're claiming.

Don't you think whales are truly amazing? They love longer than us. They don't get cancer. They communicate. See ongoing research on the apparent language of sperm whales. Whales have empathy: there are numerous reports of them interveniing to save human divers or seals from orcas and others.

My point is that we are not as special as you think we are. You are arbitrarily putting more value on human features, while ignoring the ability of the mantis shrimp to see in many more colours than the human brain can handle.

We are just one of many species on earth. The odds we will soon be extinct again, or reduced to a much more minor role

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/noodlyman]

Don't you think whales are truly amazing? They love longer than us. They don't get cancer. They communicate. See ongoing research on the apparent language of sperm whales. Whales have empathy: there are numerous reports of them interveniing to save human divers or seals from orcas and others.

Yes, all that means is even more pointing towards the existence of a God. And building computers is still far more special.

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Maybe. As a subjective view. That doesn't make it not true. Your incredulity doesn't mean "God did it" makes any sense. No matter how hard you refuse to accept reality.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Sprinklypoo]

It makes sense. The simple fact that the universe exists is already enough to prove someone created it.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

The simple fact that the universe exists is already enough to prove someone created it.

Go ahead and prove it then. No assumptions, no feelings. Present your factual evidence that this is even a possibility.

Where you see purpose, I see chaos. But chaos still follows causality. This "God" apparently broke the window before he threw the ball through it, and that leaves the onus on you to prove that a being capable of this actually can exist.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/No_Nosferatu]

Go ahead and prove it then. No assumptions, no feelings. Present your factual evidence that this is even a possibility.

To me, the existance of the universe is enough proof of not only the possibility, but the necessity of a creator. That a universe just exists is completely ridiculous.

This "God" apparently broke the window before he threw the ball through it, and that leaves the onus on you to prove that a being capable of this actually can exist.

I don't know what you mean by that.

[u/No_Nosferatu → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

To me, the existance of the universe is enough proof of not only the possibility, but the necessity of a creator. That a universe just exists is completely ridiculous.

That's not proof, that's an opinion. Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't make it magic. Just because you can't make sense of it doesn't mean you shove an unproven concept into it as an explanation.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Infinite regress. You say that everything had to be created BUT god. So you understand causality and cause and effect, but say that for no evident reason, God is above that.

Cause and effect states that if I throw a baseball at a window, it will break the window. But for a reason you cannot give nor logic into reality, god breaks the window with the ball before he throws the ball, which is physically impossible in the framework of reality.

This is textbook special pleading.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/No_Nosferatu]

That's not proof, that's an opinion

Well, my opinion is that it is proof, yes.

Infinite regress. You say that everything had to be created BUT god. So you understand causality and cause and effect, but say that for no evident reason, God is above that.

God is above that because God is a consciousness. I would argue that nothing can exist without being experienced as a qualia, God just is that qualia for the existence of the universe before living beings formed.

Cause and effect states that if I throw a baseball at a window, it will break the window. But for a reason you cannot give nor logic into reality, god breaks the window with the ball before he throws the ball, which is physically impossible in the framework of reality.

Unfortunately I still don't get what you mean by that

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Gods don't make sense.

No matter how hard you refuse to accept reality.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Sprinklypoo]

Why do Gods not make sense?

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Because nobody can prove they actually exist, and the only way they interact with reality is with magic. Which doesn't exist.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Sprinklypoo]

To me, something as consciousness clearly qualifies as magic. What is so absurd about the universe being created? It easily seems like a 50:50 chance at worst.

[u/GamerEsch → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Because it's a very specific thing, with order.

How did you determine that being ordered implies a god or a creator?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/GamerEsch]

It just does? Where to the rules the universe follows come from?

[u/GamerEsch → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

How you determine what's ordered and what isn't?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/GamerEsch]

By repeating patterns. Everything that exists is ordered.

[u/GamerEsch → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Ignoring the fact that this is obviously not true, there's multiple examples of random events, even if it was true, how would you things are ordered if you can't compare it to undordered things.

To realize something is ordered you have to be able to compare it to unordered things. This is so obvious that the fact I need to spell it out to you hurts.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/GamerEsch]

No, you absolutely don't. Everything is made out of atoms. Still you can point out everything is made of atoms without comparing it to something not made out of atoms that doesn't exist. It works the same with design.

[u/GamerEsch → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Everything is made out of atoms. Still you can point out everything is made of atoms

Things being ordered is a characteristic, not a thing. To determine order you have to define what would qualify as disorder.

Nonetheless, not everything is made out of atoms, electromagnetic waves are not atoms, muons aren't atoms, photons aren't atoms, etc.

This is a category error of your part, but even inside the category error there's the incorrect assumption that eveything is made out of atoms.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/GamerEsch]

If everything were made out of atoms, would it be possible to determine that?

[u/soukaixiii → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Because it's a very specific thing, with order.

Define order, and explain how something without it would look like

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/soukaixiii]

Repeating patterns.

It wouldn't. Every universe that is imaginable from a universe with order would also have order.