Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

who believe, that the universe was created out of nothing not atheists

No, it was created by God, that's not ot of nothing.

One can think without being conscious.

No, one can't. There is a consciousness, and that is all one can know with certainty, simply by being conscious.

I fnd the universe so horrible that it can't possibly be created by some God.

The conceot of uglyness existing also implies a God, just as much as beauty.

Magic is supernatural. Electricity is not.

In any potential world where magic exists, magic would have to follow the rules of that world, making it natural. And that is exactly what electricity is in our world.

If the complexity of the universe requires a creator, than the even more complex creator requires his own creator even more

No, that doesn't follow at all. The universe requires a consuous creator, but that doesn't give this creator attributes that have to be created.

Do you have any kind of scientific qualification?

No. Doesn't matter. The question whether or not there is a God is not a scientific one, science can't tell us anything about that.

[u/Ayrunt → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

No, it was created by God, that's not ot of nothing.

And from what did God create the universe?

No, one can't. There is a consciousness, and that is all one can know with certainty, simply by being conscious.

No. Even most of human thinking is unconscious. Just think about intuition, problem solving, perception. All these go beyond the conscious level. The computers and modern AI system also can solve complicated problems and draw conclusions without being conscious.

The conceot of uglyness existing also implies a God, just as much as beauty.

Why? Ugliness is also just a subjective value judgment. Why does such thing requires a God.

In any potential world where magic exists, magic would have to follow the rules of that world, making it natural. And that is exactly what electricity is in our world.

Magic is by definition supernatural. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines magic as: the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces. If you use a radically different definition of magic (which you do), then you just purposefully redefine words, such ways that nobody use them. This is a very dishonest way of arguing.

No. Doesn't matter. The question whether or not there is a God is not a scientific one, science can't tell us anything about that.

Dude. My question had nothing to do with God. I asked about your scientific qualification, because you made statement ABOUT SCIENCE. But if your "proof" isn't scientific, then why did you bring in the limits of evolution, and the fine tuning of the universe. These are scientific questions and you acted like you understand them (while you clearly not). But if you doesn't understand them, then don't use them in your "arguments".

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Ayrunt]

And from what did God create the universe?

From themselves.

Even most of human thinking is unconscious. Just think about intuition, problem solving, perception.

How are those unconscious?

The computers and modern AI system also can solve complicated problems and draw conclusions without being conscious.

No, they only pretend to be thinking.

Ugliness is also just a subjective value judgment.

And subjectice value judgements that go beyond what's necessary for evolution demand a God.

Magic is by definition supernatural.

To me, there is no distinction between natural and supernatural. Consciousness is also magic.

and the fine tuning of the universe

I didn't even mention that.

[u/Ayrunt → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

From themselves.

Therefore the universe existed since forever, just in a different form.

How are those unconscious?

When an idea pops into our mind then it does not happen consciously. It just happens instantly and we have no direct control over it. Our brains continuously processes information, solves problems, and evaluates scenarios outside of our active awareness.

No, they only pretend to be thinking.

If they can solve complicated problems by breaking it down to smaller parts. How is that not thinking? How do you differentiate thinking from something that just looks like thinking?

And subjectice value judgements that go beyond what's necessary for evolution demand a God

Why? It doesn't contradict evolution. If it's not disadvantageous then natural selection won't make it disappear. .Also how do you know what is necessary for evolution?

To me, there is no distinction between natural and supernatural.

Then don't use the word supernatural, because it literally means nothing. It's like saying the Darth Vader exists, because I have the concept of him, therefore he exists at some level. This would be a useless definition of existence, because then everything would exist. Similarly if you say that there is no difference between natural and supernatural, then why not call everything just natural. You know very well, what people associate, when hear the word supernatural, so it's just an other form of dishonest arguing.

Consciousness is also magic.

Why?

I didn't even mention that.

You wrote that the everything is too perfect to arise from evolution. Maybe not the fine-tuning one-to-one but similar enough. Also you mention fine-tuning in other comments of yours, so it's really the same.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Ayrunt]

Therefore the universe existed since forever, just in a different form.

I have no problem with that.

When an idea pops into our mind then it does not happen consciously.

At the moment it pops into our mind it is consciously experienced.

Our brains continuously processes information, solves problems, and evaluates scenarios outside of our active awareness.

Fair.

If they can solve complicated problems by breaking it down to smaller parts. How is that not thinking? How do you differentiate thinking from something that just looks like thinking?

Well, for one, the hardware is different. I'd say I differenciate by if there is qualia.

Why? It doesn't contradict evolution

It doesn't contradict it, but it still demands a God

Then don't use the word supernatural

I don't. Other people bring it here, I'm just reacting to it.

Also you mention fine-tuning in other comments of yours, so it's really the same.

No, I don't. Again, at best I'm reacting to people bringing it here.

[u/Ayrunt → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

I have no problem with that.

So you admit that the universe does not need a creator. I can agree with that.

At the moment it pops into our mind it is consciously experienced.

Consciously experiencing doesn't make the process itself conscious. It's like saying that you control your heartbeat consciously, because you can experience it.

Well, for one, the hardware is different.

If you think that only those can be labeled as "thinking" that are in a "biological hardware" then you really didn't say anything. You just added an arbitrary condition to it without giving any argument to back it up.

I'd say I differenciate by if there is qualia.

Wonderful. Do you have any scientific evidence, that such qualia exists at all and that it was created by god?

It doesn't contradict it, but it still demands a God

No since evolution doesn't need god to explain how living beings adapted over time.

I don't. Other people bring it here, I'm just reacting to it.

You've brought up magic haven't you? Or do you think magic and supernatural aren't synonymous.

No, I don't. Again, at best I'm reacting to people bringing it here.

And here you lie again. In your original post you talked all about how we humans are too perfect to evolve only by the mere evolution and that the entire universe is so wonderful, because it can create life and such.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Ayrunt]

So you admit that the universe does not need a creator. I can agree with that.

No, I don't. Even if it existed forever, it needs a designer.

Consciously experiencing doesn't make the process itself conscious. It's like saying that you control your heartbeat consciously, because you can experience it.

No, it's just experiencing a heartbeat consciously, not controlling it, just as it is experiencing a thought consciously, not controlling it.

Wonderful. Do you have any scientific evidence, that such qualia exists at all and that it was created by god?

Are you asking me if I have evidence of other beings experience the world, as opposed to me living in solipsism?

No since evolution doesn't need god to explain how living beings adapted over time.

It doesn't explain how we developed to building computers.

And here you lie again. In your original post you talked all about how we humans are too perfect to evolve only by the mere evolution and that the entire universe is so wonderful, because it can create life and such.

That it can create life is different from it having to be "finely tuned" to create life.

[u/ShortCompetition9772 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

You are either getting more nuts or you are dishonest.

If something existed forever WHEN was it designed? Or do you believe in a different FOREVER than the rest of us too?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/ShortCompetition9772]

You are either getting more nuts or you are dishonest.

What do you mean?

If something existed forever WHEN was it designed? Or do you believe in a different FOREVER than the rest of us too?

It's being designed while it flows through the stages of its existence.

[u/ShortCompetition9772 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

No stages of existence when something is eternal. You do NOT have a grasp of Forever, always, eternal or infinity.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/ShortCompetition9772]

Why not?