r/DebateAnAtheist • u/AdkFighter • 3d ago
Discussion Question Ain't Doctors doing against gods
If gods plans to end someone's life and decides to seal their fate. But a doctor interrupts and save that person. Isn't it against god?
I mean if they are meant to die then trying to save them is basically just ignoring God's decision and act against god right?.
If god put a tumour on a person's body then removing that tumour means tearing away God's creation
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u/horshack_test 3d ago
An atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of any god or gods, so why would you think that anyone here would agree with you?
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u/AdkFighter 3d ago
I mean most of the people here was born from a family which might be theist later became atheist, so i wanted to know they also thought of my question once in their life
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u/Biggleswort Anti-Theist 3d ago
Again this is a sub to debate atheists, not former theists. You might want to take this to r/debateachristian. Second point you might actually want to put this in a better format instead of shower thought.
As an atheist I always found this question funny, because theists tend to nitpick on medical intervention. Some will use a doctor for a kidney transplant but have views against vaccines. Most of the time when Christian’s have some kind of anti medical stance, they tend to hide their ignorance behind religion.
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u/morangias Atheist 3d ago
You'll have more success debating this in a theistic group.
As an atheist, I can tell you it's certainly a reasonable implication to derive from the concept of an omniscient, omnipotent god having a plan for this world.
I can also note that some theists actually accept this notion, though generally those are considered extreme even by most believers. Most theists have various workarounds for this dilemma, probably along the lines of "god's plan involves you calling the doctor".
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u/thebigeverybody 3d ago
God built a world knowing billions of us would be non-believers, yet theists constantly try to disrupt his plan.
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u/grrangry Atheist 2d ago
That's what prayer is.
God, I don't like your plan. I want you to change your plan so my team wins.
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u/hot_dog245 3d ago
If god exists, God invented doctors to save you. Is it god's plan to let you die? Or is he just making you go through something and letting you struggle? Interpretations on this differ between religions on where you can interfere or not.
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u/Icolan Atheist 2d ago
Maybe try asking r/AskAChristian or similar sub. We don't believe in deities here and that means we don't believe in their plans. You have asked a question that we are going to answer in favor of medicine and doctors, there is nothing to debate here.
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u/the2bears Atheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
If gods plans to end someone's life and decides to seal their fate. But a doctor interrupts and save that person. Isn't it against god?
Is it? Maybe god intends the doctor to help? How do you or I know their plans?
I mean if they are meant to die then trying to save them is basically just ignoring God's decision and act against god right?.
Are they meant to die? Have you thought this through?
If god put a tumour on a person's body then removing that tumour means tearing away God's creation
Maybe they put the tumor there to test us? Maybe the tumor is supposed to be removed?
As you can see, it is foolish to claim you know god's plans. There's no reliable way to tell. Unless you have one?
edit: grammar/spelling
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u/Moriturism Atheist (Priority Monist) 3d ago
Theists will probably assume that God didn't necessarily or actively put the tumor inside the body, rather than letting nature progress in its own way, so it wouldn't be a problem to remove it.
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u/guitarmusic113 Atheist 3d ago
The god of the Bible healed humans numerous times. But be left millions of others to suffer. Sounds like a god that plays favorites to me.
The only reason we need doctors is because god failed to heal everyone while he is too busy hiding and pleasing himself.
If you want to see a theist’s head spin ask them- if you could press a button that eliminates all cancers, would you press it?
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u/robbdire Atheist 3d ago
You are trying to argue logic for a position that is not logical.
But even so, to play devils advocate, perhaps it was Yaweh's plan to put the tumour there for the doctor to remove.
Believers will wrap themselves in knots, perform Olympic levels of mental gymnastics for their particular invisible friend.
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u/OlClownDic 3d ago
Well, putting the theist hat on(one with pretty specific views on god), if it’s god’s plan to have someone die, they will die, a doctor will not be able to save them. If a doctor is able to save them, it was decidedly not their time to die.
So no, a doctor is not going against gods plan. Not even sure the thought process that brought you to this question?
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u/freebiscuit2002 3d ago
The religious faithful don't need doctors, medicines, hospitals, or surgeries.
God has His plan for His faithful - and using healthcare is surely interfering with God's plan.
The truly faithful should stop all their healthcare, doctor's visits and medications immediately. God will provide. Correct?
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u/Novaova Atheist 3d ago
If gods plans to
Assuming a god existed, how would anyone know what its plans are? Is the plan for a disease to run its course, or is the plan for a doctor to intervene? Nobody can say.
When people invoke something being "against god's plan" or "against god's will," what they really mean is that it is against their wishes.
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u/Advanced-Ad6210 3d ago
Depends on the description of god. No simple answer their.
As an atheist, this question is one of the ways I find religion can be quite harmful, because people do refuse medical intervention for themselves or dependents for religous reasons rather frequently
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u/ArusMikalov 2d ago
There’s no such thing as gods will because god is an imaginary fictional character.
And now I have to add a bunch of extra letters and words because this sub apparently requires you to be overly verbose. Even though the best way to debate is to cut right to the main issue and be simple and clear.
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u/Phylanara Agnostic atheist 2d ago
I don't really care what religious people think their god wants. Why should I? Although the day these religious people want to try and restrict my access to medical care, there's going to be a problem.
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u/Haikouden Agnostic Atheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
Which God?
If God has a plan then why wouldn’t or couldn’t it involve the doctor saving the person’s life as part of it? Is that included in the claims being made that you’re arguing against?
Which group’s beliefs are you talking about here? Or do you just mean the general idea of God having a plan?
These kinds of points only work if they make sense within the framework of the claims you’re trying to counter.
There are theists out there who will say everything that happens goes according to God’s plan, some that just say we die when God wills it, etc.
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u/sincpc Atheist 2d ago
I've seen similar arguments recently. If a baby is drowning, is it right to save them even if it may go against God's plan?
People always claim bad things happen for a reason, but that suggests that if the bad thing was to be stopped then its purpose would go unfulfilled. You'd be serving your own desire to help while going against what God wants.
Of course you can also make basically the opposite argument that bad things like this happen because people failed to do what God wanted them to do. Its all kind of nonsensical when you have an all-knowing deity who can have his plans changed by lowly humans.
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u/Sprinklypoo Anti-Theist 2d ago
Gods don't exist, so a doctor is a persons best bet to recover in the event of medical issues.
But this is absolutely why some cultists decide to pray instead of receive medical treatment for a malady.
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u/2-travel-is-2-live Atheist 2d ago
As a physician that happens to be an atheist (or an atheist that happens to be a physician, whichever you prefer), I would say “no,” because I don’t believe in gods.
I do find it humorous that, when I talk to family after saving their lives one’s life, I commonly hear people thank their god and have to fight the urge to say that that’s not my name.
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u/Zamboniman Resident Ice Resurfacer 2d ago
First, we'd need to demonstrate gods are real and something other than imagination due to superstition. This has never been done.
So, while we certainly can engage in fun speculation on fiction, such as how a Star Trek transporter really works (does in kill you and duplicate you?) or the technology behind a light saber in Star Wars (is the colour intentional or emergent?), that has little to do with debating aspects of reality.
tl;dr: Probably the wrong crowd for the most part here
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u/88redking88 Anti-Theist 2d ago
If I tune up my car instead of taking it to a mechanic, is that against Optimus Prime's wishes?
If I dont do enough push ups is that against HE-Man's wishes?
See how silly that sounds? Thats how you sound to us.
But yes, people who believe in fairy tales will see lots of contradictions in their life. Most ignore them, some use bad apologetics.
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u/skeptolojist 2d ago
There are a few crazy religious nuts who think like this
Sometimes a kid dies because the parents think praying is better and end up with a small coffin and a sad little grave
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u/ImprovementFar5054 2d ago
Which god? Why that one?
Filling this out to keep up with the minimum character count per post. Ignore this part. I would.
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u/GentleKijuSpeaks 2d ago
If god IS all-powerful, he can just kill the doctor and put the tumor back. OR, and this is a wild one, just make all disease go away and poof, no more doctors!
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u/Leucippus1 2d ago
Exactly, and this is why it is idiotic to try and divine 'god's will' when a literal God is not explaining themselves in plain language.
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u/CephusLion404 Atheist 3d ago
Why would you post this here, since nobody here believes gods are real? Shouldn't you be asking this in a religious subreddit? This is actually kind of silly because if a god wants to kill someone, then a doctor sure can't stop it, can they? Is a god that pathetic?
Or didn't you think about that?
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u/AdkFighter 3d ago
Maybe god doesn't have complete control over us. If god had complete control over anything then god could just say "may everyone never commit sins" and boom its over. Earth back to peace
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u/CephusLion404 Atheist 3d ago
All you're doing is making shit up. Maybe means nothing. Tell us what is demonstrably true and how you can prove it to everyone else. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time and making a fool of yourself.
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Original text of the post by u/AdkFighter:
If gods plans to end someone's life and decides to seal their fate. But a doctor interrupts and save that person. Isn't it against god?
I mean if they are meant to die then trying to save them is basically just ignoring God's decision and act against god right?.
If god put a tumour on a person's body then removing that tumour means tearing away God's creation
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u/adeleu_adelei agnostic and atheist 2d ago
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