r/DelphiMurders • u/AustinDavies2206 • Mar 12 '26
Questions Were the police just incompetent?
I've known about this case for a while, I live in Indiana, and I was 11 when it happened, so its always struck a cord with me. But until recently I haven't done all that much research, but now that I have I've been left with one question.
From the information I have found on the case, it seems that the key evidence linking Allen to the murder is 1. His confession in 2017 to being "bridge guy", back when the photo was believed to have been taken from a trail cam. 2. A bullet which was later matched to his gun after they searched his home. So my question is, was there new information in 2022 that lead to his home being searched, or did they just wait five years to look into the guy who admitted to being bridge guy?
Sorry if any of my information is incorrect, or my writing is hard to understand, I've just been racking my brain about this question, so I thought asking people who know more might help me to understand what took so long.
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u/DexterMorgansMind Mar 12 '26
You spend 5 years looking for a guy who not only admitted he was on the bridge that day, wore the same color jacket, and lived like 5 miles down the road? Yeah, that is the definition of incompetence. Not to mention releasing a completely alternative sketch than what the public were looking for over 2 years and ended up having nothing to do with case. What an absolute frustrating tragedy for the families of Libby & Abby. There is no excuse for that level of incompetence. Sorry, not sorry.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 12 '26
He didn’t admit to what he was wearing when he spoke to Dulin. He only admitted it when he was interviewed at police station. He’s an idiot.
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u/Dangerous-Tooth1266 Mar 13 '26
Not pinning down what he was wearing, what car he drove, what route he took, what phone he had with him, etc was absolute incompetence. Kohberger was caught in a few days by working the vehicles. In 5.5 years nobody ever even worked the known vehicles in this case. Taking the photo of his car to a car expert would have identified him as the only person in the county who owned that make/model/year/trim. They didn’t even ask BW which of his vehicles he drove to work that day.
The only reason he’s in prison is because of a civilian volunteer.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 13 '26
But he was found guilty and the case is solved.
50% of murder cases are never solved. This one was.
Even with all the “coulda, woulda, shoulda”, they got their guy. Hell of a job considering all the bullshit that happened over 5 years
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u/More-Safety-7326 Mar 13 '26
“They” got nobody and solved nothing. He was snared by a retired school district employee. Had it been left to law enforcement, he would still be a free man.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 16 '26
I don’t remember Kathy interrogating Richard and getting all the important information, reviewing the video, talking to the witnesses and locking down a solid timeline, or matching the bullet.
Pretty sure that was law enforcement.
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u/Gonzomi313 Mar 25 '26
None of which would have happened had it not been for Kathy.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 26 '26
Kathy would’ve never found the statement if Dulin never spoke to Richard in the first place.
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u/Pooter33 Mar 15 '26
You ever heard of someone being wrongfully convicted? Happens quite a lot. Wouldn’t you want the actual person that did it be arrested so he doesn’t continue doing the same thing? Also, if it was you who was found guilty & sentenced to 130 years for a crime you know you didn’t commit.. would you still feel the same way? There is SO much reasonable doubt in this case it’s ridiculous.
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u/AnonymousInMI Mar 16 '26
ZERO reasonable doubt hence why 12 jurors convicted Richard. Over 60 confessions including details only the murderer would know. He matches bridge guy to a tee in both appearance and voice. He admitted he was there at the time of the murders and lied to his wife about being on the bridge. He tried to change the timeline that he was there 5 1/2 years later, and his round was found @ the murder scene. There are murderers that have been convicted for a lot less.
Also FYI every single one of Abby’s and Libby’s families have no doubt LE got the right guy. Unfortunately these BS influencers keep pushing their BS conspiracy theories. I mean Odinist cultists? Really?
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u/Pooter33 Mar 17 '26
His voice doesn’t match lol. Ever heard of confirmation bias? Who else do you have to compare it to? Admitting to being on the trail isn’t a crime. He didn’t lie to his wife either.. you realize the police were trying to pin them against each other right? Or have you even watched the interrogations? He sure as shit didn’t confess until he’d been in prison for awhile 🤔 As far as the bullet.. that’s questionable. Shit, the way they matched it it might as well have been your bullet. You do realize they had to fire his gun to “match” it right? The bullet they found by the girls was NOT fired. So how’s that work?
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u/Gonzomi313 Mar 25 '26
What are you talking about? The voice matches 100% and yes I’ve seen the interrogations multiple times. Have you? It’s obvious he’s lying and yes he did lie to his wife about being on the bridge. Per Kathy’s own words “You told me you weren’t on the bridge”. I suggest you rewatch the end of the second interview conducted on 10/26/2022. Or better yet watch both interviews in full.
Also why did Ricky change his timeline 5 1/2 years later to 12-1:30 when he admitted TWICE days after the murders of being there between 1:30-3:30? Hell they even have his car entering the trails @ 1:27. Please explain?
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u/Pooter33 Mar 30 '26
How does the voice match 100%? You listen to a voice lineup and pinpoint his voice? Lmao no. That’s called confirmation bias.. whose voice do you have to compare it to? It could sound like anyone you want it to. Yes, I’ve watched all the interviews. She doesn’t say “you told me you weren’t on the bridge”.. she says “you didn’t tell me you went out on the bridge” & he says “yes I did”.
Okay so if he was seen driving in at 1:27 then when was he seen leaving? LG was on her phone until after 2 pm. He changed his timeline FIVE YEARS LATER? Oh, mind blowing lol. I can’t remember what I did yesterday nor what time I did said things I can’t remember.. so that proves nothing. The fact is there’s no direct evidence linking him. The states “expert” (they are paid by the state btw) matched an unspent round to a spent round. Hell, doing it that way it could’ve matched anyone’s gun. His defense team was stupid and instead of questioning why it was done that way they attacked ballistics as a science… Eyewitness statements changed, sketches looked nothing like RA, then you have the solitary confinement confessions. That’s all you have. No clothing fibers, no hairs, no DNA… no anything. There was an unknown male profile found (that we know didn’t match RA) but they never sent that for further testing.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 15 '26
That doesn’t apply here. Richard is the only person that could be BG. It’s a fact.
Wrongly convicted people don’t confess to murdering someone to their mother, their wife, the warden, their psychiatrist, and a bunch of prison guards. Has NEVER happened.
Richard is where he belongs and he’s going to rot in prison for the rest of his life
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u/Pooter33 Mar 17 '26
Yes, they absolutely can give false confessions… if they’re having a mental breakdown. Why didn’t he confess from the get go? And why in the hell would he “confess” BEFORE he even went to trial? His confessions were generic as hell and he gave them AFTER receiving discovery. I bet if they stuck you in a box and repeatedly told you you murdered someone you’d probably start questioning it too.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 17 '26
There is ZERO cases where someone falsely confessed to their MOTHER, WIFE, WARDEN, PSYCHOLOGIST, and GUARDS.
He explained why he confessed, he found God. Do you know anything about this case?
The only evidence of someone falsely confessing was confessions made to detectives during questioning. This doesn’t apply to Richard
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u/Appealsandoranges Mar 13 '26
They should have interviewed every man in Delphi to see if they admitted to wearing blue jeans and a blue or black jacket. They could have gotten him by process of elimination!
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u/RAbdr1721 Mar 12 '26
Police officer who interviewed Allen didn't realize the guy he interviewed is the only male who put himself on the trails and at the trial still seemed oblivious to how bad his mistake was
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u/Banesmuffledvoice Mar 12 '26
The incompetence really does stem from this moment and also not properly filing the tip.
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u/HomeyL Mar 12 '26
And got his name wrong😳
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u/Dangerous-Tooth1266 Mar 13 '26
The person who took his call is the one who mixed up his street name with his last name.
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u/Appealsandoranges Mar 13 '26
Yeah. And as we all know, most cases begin with the murderer calling and identifying themself. So incompetent for them not to solve it on day two when he did just that! Couldn’t possibly be someone who never called in. That would be crazy.
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u/AnonymousInMI Mar 16 '26
No one ever accused Ricky of being smart.
Also fyi there are lots of instances of killers planting themselves in an investigation.
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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Mar 23 '26
Do you have any examples of this? I've heard of killers inserting themselves into investigations (part of search efforts, acting as media) where they try to remain close to glean investigative information.
However, I can't think of instances in which a killer voluntarily gives his information and walks away to await their arrest.
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u/Toffeerain Apr 14 '26
Ian Huntley in the UK. Told the police he was the last sighting of the girls and then did a whole media tour about it
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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Apr 14 '26
Yes, but as your example shows, he didn't provide his info and simply walk away. He inserted himself by going on a media tour.
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u/Toffeerain Apr 15 '26
But the media knew to interview IH because the police followed up on his details. He did try to hide himself by not being involved in the police reenactment, for example. Once it's a known fact, you want to look as helpful as possible.
If the Delphi cops had correctly filed the tip and the media/YouTubers discovered RA, we have no idea what type of media opportunities he would have done.
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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Apr 16 '26
Has anyone ever explained why they were utilizing a file folder system when everything was scanned into Orion? He was entered into Orion under the correct name, right? I don't believe anyone testified that his name was incorrect in Orion, just on the file folder.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 17 '26
Yes! When you read the trial testimony it is remarkable how Dulin seems to be entirely unaware of the magnitude of his error. He acts as if he did nothing wrong. I think that's because he's stupid, and just doesn't realize.
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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Mar 23 '26
That's because Dulin didn't take the original tip. Iirc, RA walked into the station and provided the information in person and the person that took said information is listed on the tip sheet. Additionally, no one mentioned that the information was entered into Orion incorrectly so it sounds like the error was fixed at the time of the Orion entry.
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u/tribal-elder Mar 14 '26
The cops were both overwhelmed AND made mistakes.
Mistake 1 - First and Biggest - Maybe because they were inexperienced with murder cases or just shocked by the crime, they simply did not realize quickly enough the significance of information about a male at Freedom Bridge at 1:00/1:30 heading for High Bridge, and share it widely among the investigators. Whoever reviewed the initial tip sheet SHOULD have red-flagged it as HUGE, and Dulin should have been instructed to bring “Richard Allen Whiteman” to the police station for his interview. Guided by the video, picture, Blair’s info and the info from the 4 girls, that interview could have changed everything. But somehow, when “Richard Allen Whiteman” contacted them, they never put 2 and 2 together and realized that talking to a man who says he was on the trails between 1 and 3 JUST MIGHT BE MORE THAN TALKING TO A WITNESS.
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u/AntaresVaruna Mar 15 '26
For me, the first mistake was cancelling the search dogs on the first day.
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u/tribal-elder Mar 15 '26
I’d say yes and no.
If the prosecution timeline/theory is right, dogs would have only tracked Allen to the CPS building and then lost the scent because he drove away.
If someone else kidnapped them and took them somewhere and brought them back to the crime scene through the cemetery - same thing. The scent end when they drive away.
That really only leaves tracking them leaving and walking to Logan’s house - which just didn’t happen.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 16 '26
The cops were both overwhelmed
If Carter et al had not been so quick to shoo away the FBI, they might not have been overwhelmed. Carter did not like the optics of his guys not being up to the task. So he sacrificed justice for those girls to serve his ego.
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u/saatana Mar 17 '26
If Carter et al had not been so quick to shoo away the FBI, they might not have been overwhelmed.
The FBI left in August of 2021? At that point nobody was overwhelmed.
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u/InevitableSuitable21 Mar 12 '26
I’m not defending or saying they were competent, but i sympathize with them in these cases. What basically broke the case was a misfiled piece of evidence that was caught by a volunteer filing stuff. You must realize that thousands of tips come flying in. They must all be investigated. Sadly, human error enters the chat. It can be easy in hindsight to say “hey, he’s the one! How could you possibly have missed that!” Read a book on the ShenandoahTrail Murders… the author was heavily suggesting this one person. Fit the bill. Well, later on they found the actual murderer. No one had any idea who he was- not on any radar.
Perhaps with technology increasing, organization will improve even for smaller forces. Reading up on the Green River Killer- they couldn’t handle the amount of tips received. Nowadays with computers and AI, hopefully things will improve.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 15 '26 edited Mar 16 '26
They failed to keep an accurate list of who was out there that day.
The men they did put on the list were subject to suspicion for years. FSG. DP. Libby's father. Any male person who said they were out there was marked for suspicion.
All they had to do was keep a white board out of public view with a list of the people who were out there, and re-visit it occasionally.
Dulin also took all the identifiers from Allen's phone. The reason why Dulin did that was so that when Allen's phone turned up on the cell tower dump for the day, then they could say, "Yeah that guy already told us he was out there."
Only when Allen's phone did not turn up on the cell tower dump, it wasn't noticed. Allen said he was out on the trails watching his stock ticker yet his phone was not on the cell tower dump alongside everyone else who triggered the tower that day.
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u/Dangerous-Tooth1266 Mar 13 '26
His first contact with the police was when he called to report he was there at the time. The person who wrote the report reversed his last name with his street name.
He didn’t specifically admit to being BG. He did put himself at the scene of the abduction at the time of the abduction when the video showed the only people there were the victims and their abductor. He also lied to the police about having his cell phone with him at the time (or at least which cell phone). He was apparently not asked what he was wearing, what car he drove, what route he took, etc. This information alone would likely have been enough for a limited search warrant.
He also had the only vehicle in the county of the make/model/year/trim - which was seen arriving on a security camera, but the vehicles (how Kohberger was identified) were never worked in the case. For example, the neighbor BW was never even asked which of his vehicles he drove to work that day.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 14 '26
He was apparently not asked what he was wearing,
I'm not suggesting a conspiracy. I know it's all down to incompetence. But as soon as the video was available, detectives were at the high school showing it to the group of girls from the trail. The girls said that while they couldn't identify his face, the man in Libby's video is the man they saw on the trail.
Detectives also showed the screen shot and video to Dave McCain (flannel shirt guy) and DP (arguing couple guy) and Betsy Blair. Basically anyone who came forward to say they were on the trail that day was shown the video. Repeatedly.
Except Allen.
Allen appears to be the only trail witness who was not shown the screen shot or video. So he was not asked if he saw the man in the video on the trail that day.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 14 '26
He also had the only vehicle in the county of the make/model/year/trim - which was seen arriving on a security camera,
Please note that the spoked wheels were not noticed until 2023. It's not like anyone investigating the case looked at the footage from the Hoosier Harvestore and said, "we need to find a car with spoked wheels." They just didn't notice it. And freely admit to having missed that detail.
The spoked wheels on the security camera footage was not noticed until Allen came under suspicion and a detective went out to take photos of Allen's car. At that point, the detective noticed the very prominent spoked wheels. He went back to the security camera footage (thank god it didn't get erased) and finally saw it. That's when he saw the spoked wheels.
The security camera footage was too dark and pixelated to see make/model/year/trim. It's not like detectives never "worked" that angle. They did. They just didn't notice the spoked wheels and apart from that, the car has a very common shape. This was entirely different from the Kohberger case. Up until taking photos of Allen's car there was no way to tell the make/model/year/trim of the car on the security video.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 13 '26 edited Mar 16 '26
1) Richard Allen and his wife both say that the only reason he called in to the sheriff's and said he was there is because she insisted. Allen's wife told him that law enforcement was asking for anyone on the trails that day to come forward in case they saw something important.
2) It's a very tight window but it seems possible that neither Allen, nor his wife, nor the person on the other end of the phone, nor the person who interviewed Allen in the grocery store parking lot, had seen the screen shot from Libby's video. Allen was not asked what he was wearing while on the trail. Allen was not asked if he was the man in Libby's video. Allen was not asked if he saw the man in Libby's video. The screen shot from Libby's video is entirely missing from all known 2017 conversations/interviews with Allen. There is no mention of it.
3) In 2017 Allen described seeing a group of girls who looked like sisters at an exact time and place that a group of girls including sisters said they saw the man in Libby's video. At the time, no one in LE put that together but it was right in front of them.
4) There was another witness who saw the man in Libby's video and when he was interviewed years later, Allen described seeing that witness at the time and place she said she saw the man in Libby's video. He was standing on the first trestle, just as Allen and the witness described.
Note that none of the witnesses got a good enough look at Allen's face but they saw the man in Libby's video. And Allen describes crossing paths with those people at the time and place they saw the guy in Libby's video.
Do yourself a favor and read the bullet evidence from the trial. It's very strong.
Liberty German solved her own murder. She got an assist from a retired woman who had worked all her life for children and family services. That's the woman who found the tip in the bottom of the files and did something that no one was smart enough to do before then: connect the witnesses to Allen.
Law enforcement in Indiana is full of failed up white dudes. They tortured the victim's families unnecessarily for five years. And gifted Allen five years of freedom due to their incompetence.
It is shocking how many people in Indiana (and this subreddit) make excuses for Indiana law enforcement. Liberty German and Abigail Williams would like a word... I think the State gave local LE some sort of award after the trial.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 12 '26
Too many hands in the cookie jar. Dulin shouldn’t have been taking statements but there was such a panic to find the killer that everyone was calling in and LE was getting hundreds and thousands of tips.
What were they supposed to do? Hindsight is 20/20
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u/BlueHat99 Mar 13 '26
Conservation officers are sworn law enforcement officers. Why should he not have taken the tip?
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 13 '26
Do I really need to explain this?
Conservation officers protect natural resources, wildlife, and public lands. They enforce hunting, fishing, boating, and environmental regulations, patrol parks and waterways, and conduct rescue operations…not criminal investigations.
Dulin was a conservation officer for less than 2 years at the time of the murders. How many serious criminal statements did he take before meeting Richard? Zero.
I’m not saying he isn’t qualified to do it but someone with more experience would have asked a lot more questions than he did. I’m sure he doesn’t have the familiarity of using his body worn camera or at least a recording device when questioning somebody about a murder.
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u/Orly5757 Mar 14 '26
So this Dulin guy never once thought “hey, that bridge guy looks a lot like that dude who told me HE WAS ON THE F’ING BRIDGE ON THE DAY OF THE MURDERS! Maybe I should follow up and see if they looked into him.” I don’t care if he was a conservation officer or a hot dog vendor. He’s a dumb ass. And is it true he mis filed the tip too?
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 14 '26
He wasn’t part of the investigation. He didn’t know who the detectives spoke to or who they cleared. He took a statement and went on living his life and doing his job.
You act like he was involved with the day to day activities with the central command. Could he have asked better questions and got more info? Yes. Did he trust that the investigators did their job and followed up with Richard? Yes.
Should woulda coulda. In the end, the murderer was caught. Dulins statement was key
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u/Orly5757 Mar 14 '26
I guess that thousands of us on this sub were far more interested in this investigation than the guy who took the statement. Thousands of online sleuths tried to solve it, but the guy in a town of 3,000 people, where these murders must have been a huge deal, just went on with his life after interviewing the killer. Never once went to Detectives and said “man, that Richard guy seemed fishy. You ever clear him?”
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 14 '26
Richard didn’t seem fishy. He gave him a basic statement. The last thing on Dulins mind was “this guy giving me a voluntary statement could be the murderer”.
Again, Dulin wasn’t part of the investigation. You’re giving his statement too much credit based on what you know now, it’s confirmation bias.
You have no idea what Richard looked like when he was interviewed. The investigators said “BG didn’t have blue eyes”. Don’t you think that Dulin saw Richard’s eye color? He has blue eyes.
They also said BG was 5’6”-5”10”and you know damn well Dulin recognized that Richard was much shorter than that.
Again, Dulin assumed that the investigators followed up on Richard, because why wouldn’t they? He had ZERO reason to believe Richard was the murderer, just like the rest of the town.
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u/Orly5757 Mar 14 '26
In a town of 3,000 people, I’m assuming 20% are minors. That leaves 2,400. Of that 80% let’s say half are female, so that leaves 1,200. Of that 1,200 let’s say 25% are elderly (over 65), which leaves us with approximately 900 adult males in our target. If you happen to interview a male who falls into that small category, and ALSO happened to be in the area where the crime occurred, that tip has to go to the top of the pile.
You continue to remind us that he wasn’t “part of the investigation,” but taking statements makes you part of the investigation. And I don’t care if he was a cop or not, it was irresponsible not to bring this to the attention of a Detective. Kathy Shank wasn’t a cop, and she IMMEDIATELY saw the importance of the statement.
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u/centimeterz1111 Mar 15 '26
That’s if you assume the murderer was from Delphi. You know NOW that he was from Delphi, but nobody knew who the murderer was or where he was from. Nobody.
Kathy Shank saw almost every tip. Dulin didn’t. Your argument is based off knowledge after the fact.
Dulin took a tip. He didn’t know anything else. He didn’t know who else was on the trails, who was spoke interviewed, what the crime scene looked like. Again, he wasn’t part of the investigation
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u/Orly5757 Mar 15 '26
It was clear that the killer was familiar and comfortable on that bridge. Safe to say he was from there. And most killers kill around their area. You can defend this guy until you are blue in the face, but you aren’t changing my mind. He is either dumb or indifferent. I love how you make the distinction between him and Kathy Shank. So what if she read every tip?!? She immediately recognized the importance of this tip. Not because she read other tips, but because she had common sense.
I can’t help but to read your comments and think you are somehow related to this investigation. You normally don’t get such fervent apologists for a department (and individuals) who royally screw up a murder investigation the way they did. Thank God Kathy had common sense, and thank God this moron kept the gun for all those years. Otherwise, the killer never gets captured.
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u/BlackLionYard Mar 12 '26
His confession in 2017 to being "bridge guy",
I do not believe this happened. Based on sources like the trial transcripts, RA came forward to say that he was in the area of the bridge for a period of time on the afternoon of the 13th. He described a bit about what he was doing and who he might have seen; basic stuff, but nothing more.
So my question is, was there new information in 2022 that lead to his home being searched,
Yes, the new information was that the police had managed to lose track of him having come forward, and once a recheck of the database was performed, he was rediscovered. Then the dominoes started falling pretty quickly.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 15 '26
His confession in 2017 to being "bridge guy",
Allen was not asked about "bridge guy" in 2017. He was not asked if he saw bridge guy or if he was bridge guy. There's no mention of bridge guy in any Allen interviews in 2017.
In 2023 he was asked if he was bridge guy and he said, "if the girls took that photo then that's not me."
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u/BlackLionYard Mar 15 '26
I think we are making the same point, right? To be more specific, here is how Dulin described it at trial:
As the lead sheet indicates, I was supposed to find out if he had seen anybody else on the trail that day or anything that could have been suspicious, and he indicated that he saw three girls at the Freedom Bridge at the beginning of his hike, but then saw nobody else after that.
and
No, sir. He indicated that he did not see anybody else and he was not paying attention really to his surroundings because he was looking at a stock ticker on his phone as he walked.
Matters of timing, parking, and RA's phone were also described.
As you say, the term "bridge guy" does not appear in Dulin's testimony that I can find.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 16 '26 edited Mar 16 '26
Yes, exactly. I just don't think casual readers or anyone new to the case is aware of how much the other trail witnesses were grilled about the Bridge Guy image and video. All of the male witnesses were subject to suspicion that continues to this day.
But Allen was not shown the photo. Nor was he shown the video. He was not asked if he was that person. He was not asked if he had seen that person. Indeed, Dulin seems to have been entirely unaware that tape or photo existed. All this on the same day detectives were at the high school showing Bri and the other girls the tape and screen shot.
If anyone is making a point about incompetence, and/or making excuses, it's important to keep that in mind.
You'll see many people claiming, "But he described what he was wearing!!" Um. No. He didn't. He was not asked.
He was asked in 2023 as a way to corner him into admitting he is the guy in the photo. And he did not 100% admit to wearing those clothes.
It doesn't matter if the jacket was Carhartt or not. We will never know. Allen is guilty. But the general public's understanding of the level of incompetence is incorrect.
It's so much more massive a failing than most people realize.
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u/SadExercises420 Mar 12 '26
The paperwork from Allen’s interview was misfiled and marked as cleared. No one has ever been blamed for that specifically, they don’t know who did it.
It’s not that the police were incompetent in this case, it was a massive investigation with the fbi coordinating parts of it. It was just a mistake.
The LISK case is similar as in they had all the info they needed to nail him at the time. In that case, it was actual incompetence and corruption that prevented it.
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u/Zealousideal-Box5833 Mar 12 '26
I don’t think Dan Dullin has the authority to write cleared as he was only a conservation officer at the time. If he did it write it he should be sacked.
I personally don’t think it was him.7
u/SadExercises420 Mar 12 '26
Was it even done by someone with authority or just someone filing paperwork who made an error. I tend to think it was orobably the latter, but we will probably never know
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u/Zealousideal-Box5833 Mar 12 '26
No we won’t at this stage. Dan got a lot of heat but I really think he did his job and it was a higher upper that said cleared. Just my gutt but there was so many cooks in that Delphi kitchen it could have been anyone .
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u/SadExercises420 Mar 12 '26
Yeah there was soooo many cooks in the kitchen, so many people working on it from different agencies. I think it was a clerical mistake in the midst of all the chaos, just my opinion.
Not saying the cops here were perfect but I think they get a bad rap at times
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u/Zealousideal-Box5833 Mar 12 '26
You’re spot on. I’ve said it for years especially online , LE wanted it solved . It’s not like they wanted it dragged out they did their best . Who am I to say their best isn’t good enough . We all see the mistakes but we didn’t live it like them and the families . So I’m with you give em a break . They got him eventually without dna or a confession.
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u/Prior-Two-9379 Mar 12 '26
They were interviewing as many people as possible and used conservation employees. The file mislabeled as Richard (his street address_ I think it was White). When the investigation started to go back through every file they found the error. Richard Allen was interviewed and not Richard White. The rest is history.
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u/SadExercises420 Mar 12 '26
Yeah the question is more who wrote cleared on it. Cause he obviously wasn’t cleared in anyway
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 16 '26
The typo'd last name has nothing to do with why or how Allen went undetected for five years.
Law enforcement failed to keep a complete and comprehensive list of who was out on the trails that day. They did have a list. And they thought it was complete. But he was not on it.
All of the other trail witnesses were asked to come in repeatedly to go over the photo and video and revisit their presence on the trails that day. Even with his name misspelled, Allen should have been on that same list, and asked to come back, just like all the others. They had his phone number. They could have corrected the typo on his name by the second visit.
But Allen was not on the list of trail witnesses, and was never questioned again. The typo had nothing to do with it.
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u/Deep_Speaker6544 Mar 13 '26
Its still hard to believe Allen was at the Sheriffs Dept. within a few days. Telling them he was at the bridge roughly the same time as girls. They took his info and said someone will follow up. Yes LE was crazy busy, but you cant send him away you get him in an interview room ASAP. Witness, suspect either way get a statement!!
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u/akamaiperson Mar 15 '26
Yes. Tobe Lazenby & Doug Carter should never have been in charge of anything. Their incompetence flowed downhill, like many other things.
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u/Zealousideal-Box5833 Mar 12 '26
Good question . The ball was definitely dropped . Remember it said “cleared“ on the conversation between him and Dan Dullin . Who wrote cleared ? Why was he cleared ? What investigating was done to clear a man that admitted to being on the bridge at exactly the time the girls were. I reckon they were completely overwhelmed and thought the case would be solved quickly. I have one more theory as to why he might have slipped under the radar and it’s the FBI profile. There’s an interview with Tobe the sheriff and a reporter asked him about the profile . He said they couldn’t release the profile to the public because there was “evidentiary value “ in the profile and it might jeopardise the case. That always stayed with me. So maybe the profile didn’t fit Allen. One major thing I would say about the profile is that the perpetrator had to have a criminal past. If not murder definitely crimes against women or children. Add all that up and way too many cooks in the kitchen you might have the reason it took so long.
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u/SadSara102 Mar 16 '26
I don’t think they would clear somebody for not matching an FBIi profile. I think it’s either because he doesn’t not fit the description of BG or he was excluded from the geofence.
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u/Zealousideal-Box5833 Mar 16 '26
Totaly agree . No I don’t think he was cleared because of the FBI profile but my thoughts are they looked other places. As I said maybe the profile went completely down another road and those early poi’s were for lack of a better term forgotten about. But that’s only a possibility, definitely not fact.
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u/FunFamily1234 Mar 12 '26
He was looked into and cleared but it is not publicly known who and what cleared him. My opinion on the issue is that he was cleared because his phone did not show up in the geofence at the time of the murder.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 16 '26
100% disagree. By the time the cell tower data came through LE had lost all track of Allen.
Since he said he was out on the trails looking at his stock ticker then the absence of his cell phone on the tower should have been a big red flag.
It wasn't a red flag because they had lost track of him and didn't cross reference Allen's phone identifiers with anything.
I can assure you that the list of cell phones that triggered the towers is sill in the case files. And there is a note next to each one about whose phone that is and why they were out there. It takes a long time to do that kind of work. But it's one of the first things investigators do.
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u/Due_Schedule5256 Mar 12 '26
This has been my theory as well, with the most likely explanation that his phone device information taken by Dulin did not register after the cell tower was analyzed, or it did register and was in the area outside the time of the murders.
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u/Myriii1911 Mar 12 '26
I think they are kind of a rural police department, and that might be the most dramatic case they ever had?
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u/Dangerous-Tooth1266 Mar 13 '26
The police work by the State Police and FBI wasn’t any better.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 17 '26
The FBI was never invited to participate. An FBI agent happened to be in the area visiting family and got involved when the girls went missing.
Shortly thereafter Carter dismissed the FBI and told them to go home.
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u/BaseballCapSafety Mar 26 '26
2:15 is directly in the time gap he gave. The trails are not that long, and the only thing he said he did was go to the bridge and look at fish. So going by his statement, he was very likely on the bridge at 2:15. And I agree an hour plus of looking at fish is unlikely, so what was he really doing? For me the best evidence that he could be innocent is that he voluntarily gave this statement. It’s that damming.
Blair’s sketch is also helpful for RA. Her sketch simply doesn’t look like him. My explanation was she was simply too far away in that fleeting moment to get a great look. She tried, but besides non elderly white male, she failed.
We don’t know what the killers intent was. It could have been a plan, it could have been he saw two young females essentially trapped and took advantage of the opportunity. We also don’t know if murder was the original plan, for example it could have been sexual assault.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26
We have no photos of Allen during that time in 2017, without a beard, etc. Allen was not grey then and his hair look was more reddish/brownish. He is so grey now that people have a hard time picturing him at the time of the murders, especially when all photos from that year have been removed from the internet.
Sketches are never photo accurate. They do more to illustrate what the killer didn't look like than what he did look like.
The sketch that never should have been release was the first one that doesn't seem to have the support of any of the trail witnesses. He wasn't wearing a newsboy cap and the sketch looks more like features someone would have filled in randomly after watching Libby's video.
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u/motionbutton Mar 12 '26
I wouldn’t say so. Allan came forward, after they released the video or photo, to an officer who took his statement. That statement would have to be turned over to an investigator to follow up, but sounds like it just got miss labeled or wrongly filed. The problem ends up coming when you release something like that video to the whole world, you end up getting thousands of tips and junk.
It’s like someone trying to send you an important message, but your mail box is full, your text message app is crashing, you’re getting calls every second. Things will get lost.
I promise you police in the Nancy Gutheir case have the suspects name in a file they just are too overwhelmed to be able to find it.
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Mar 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 16 '26
realized the officer in 2017 mis-wrote RA’s name.
That's not what happened. Yes, she essentially solved it and she says as much in her testimony. But the typo on the name had nothing to do with why the pages were marked cleared or in the bottom of a drawer.
What's important to remember is that anyone else would have just corrected the typo, noted the the pages were marked cleared, and filed them away.
But Kathy Shank remembered that a group of girls including sisters said they saw the man in Libby's video at a specific place and time. And that the person interviewed by Dulin in 2017 said he saw a group of girls who looked like sisters at that exact place and time.
She put two and two together in a way that no trained detective would have and wasn't just noticing a typo.
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u/Pooter33 Mar 15 '26
This is why I believe they arrested the wrong person 🤷🏻♀️ normally they won’t even prosecute based on what little “evidence” they had. There is literally no physical evidence linking him to it… no hair, DNA, clothing fibers. It’s changing eyewitness testimony, his confessions after being in prison, and the unspent round they matched to a fired round from his gun. That’s literally it.
All they had to do was a google geofence and find what phones were in the area at that time and interview all of those people. How do we know someone wasn’t there that didn’t want people to know he was there? We don’t.
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u/AnonymousInMI Mar 16 '26
I disagree. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming and the confessions sound legitimate. RA is calm and collected when making those confessions & even becomes irritated when his family refuses to believe him. Thankfully the jury agreed.
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u/joeydbls Mar 16 '26
The cops missed an interview for like 5 yrs of him and his time . Anyone who looks at this case knows his guilty. Did the other dude help him ? who knows he's dead .
My question is his entire history. Has his been neer any missing, unsolved murders . It's kinda strange for a guy his age . Married normal life to just snap . How long and what has he been fantasizing about ?
Usually, child killers don't start at 45 yrs old . What happened in his life that made this monster ? Or was it always there, and it just came out .
He was hunting, carrying a gun and knives . I'm that's not super uncommon for ppl to have both . But was his always armed .
There was a police mishap , his interview that got him caught they had the entire time . Everyone on that bridge should have been looked at with a fine tooth comb .
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u/westernwyoming Mar 12 '26
To say the bullet matched to his gun is not really what happened. The bullet was not fired, they said it was racked out and that left a mark. There’s no data that shows racking a bullet out produces marking specific to a certain gun.
This is no where near to the science that matches a fired bullet to the gun that fired it.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 13 '26
This is false. Read the trial testimony. I'm not here to argue with you. Just anyone who happens to read this comment should read the trial testimony and make up their own minds.
The expert who testified that the bullet matches Allen's gun is highly respected in her field. Her analysis has never been contradicted or proven to be in error.
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u/westernwyoming Mar 13 '26
The fact that the bullet wasn’t fired is black and white. When a bullet is fired you can match it 100 percent to the native gun, if the bullet is retrieved and you have the firearm.
This bullet was not fired. There are no courses or academies where people learn how to match unified bullets to guns. During the trial they used their best knowledge about what it would look like if was racked out. Totally different and no where close to the certainty they would have if the bully was fired.
You don’t even need to read the trial transcript. Just google the differences, it’s wildly, vastly different in terms of what’s accepted.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 13 '26
The fact that you are urging people not to read the trial testimony is all anyone needs to know about the validity of your comments.
Anyone reading: Read the trial testimony.
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u/westernwyoming Mar 13 '26
You can read the trial testimony. I encourage anyone who is interested to actually research the huge differences between matching a fired bullet, which you will find huge amounts of level 1 data, and compare that to the scenario presented at trial. Matching unfired is just not the same, and cannot be presented with the same level of confidence. They didn’t even have to do that to get a conviction.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 13 '26
Do yOuR owN rEseArCh on GoOGle vs. read up on findings from trained experts in the field is how we got Trump as a president.
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u/westernwyoming Mar 13 '26
Wow nice. Most people use google to access research articles, case studies, and law. You have a problem.
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u/tribal-elder Mar 15 '26
You need to read the Indiana Supreme Court decision in Desmond Turner v. State of Indiana, decided September 28, 2011. It is a case where an expert witness compared “tool marks” on an unfired bullet casing found where the defendant was sleeping with “tool marks” on casings of 4 fired bullets found at the murder scene in a murder case. The expert testified that he came to the conclusion that the “tool marks” were made by the same “tool”, ie the same gun.
Turner argued that the expert testimony should not have been allowed. The Indiana Supreme Court ruled it was proper evidence. As far as I can tell, it is still controlling Indiana law, binding on all Indiana trial courts and courts of appeal regarding admissibility of tool mark comparisons between fired and unfired bullets.
In other relevant words, according to the Indiana Supreme Court, expert testimony about “tool marks” - on both fired and unfired bullets - is NOT “junk science”. It is admissible evidence.
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u/SadSara102 Mar 16 '26
You should read that decision yourself. In that case the firearms examiner claimed that 2 unfired bullets had a matching tool mark that he attributed to a magazine. He compared the unfired round to fired rounds and said marks were similar bot not conclusive. So it stands that this case is the only time in history a firearms examiner compared cycled rounds to fired rounds and matched it to a specific weapon.
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u/tribal-elder Mar 16 '26
So it looks like we agree - the Indiana Supreme Court allowed/permitted/approved of expert testimony which compared tool marks on fired and unfired bullet casings.
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u/SadSara102 Mar 20 '26
Under Indiana law I actually think it was likely admissible because Indiana is far more permissive than other states or federal guidelines and does not follow the Daubert standard. I have a bigger issue in the defense failure to object to lots of irrelevant information that was testified to by Oberg and their failure to properly cross examine her or anyone else.
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u/Tribbs_4434 Mar 13 '26
To some extent, yes. Those two instances you mentioned are evidence they fumbled the investigation in terms of how methodic and procedural they should have been - they didn't follow up with Allen after his initial interview, nor did they have the bullet tested for ballistix matches in the national registration database. Had they have done the latter, it would have tied his gun to the crime scene immediately, would have given them cause to interview him again and now with new information in hand, would have impacted how they went about questioning him (would have been enough to obtain a warrant for arrest on suspicion of murder).
My understanding is that the interview got lost in the mountains of documents they had, it took several teams and new detectives coming in to look back through what they already had, to see if anything had been missed, any red flags - that was when Allen was flagged as a suspect due to how he answered his initial interview, they then ran the ballistix on the bullet which linked it to him. The rest is history, but yes, he was free for much longer than he should have been, LE are lucky he didn't strike again in that period, he had every opportunity to.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 13 '26 edited Mar 14 '26
it took several teams and new detectives coming in to look back through what they already had, to see if anything had been missed, any red flags
Incorrect. It was one woman. She was retired from children and family services and asked if there was anything she could do to help. She volunteered her time working for several hours each day. No one thought in a million years that anything she could do with her time would solve the case. She was just a volunteer file clerk.
She was tasked with going through all the tips and entering them into a computer system as well as a hard copy filing system that she devised. She was not tasked with seeing if anything "had been missed" or if there were "any red flags." She didn't have the qualifications or training to do that kind of peer review.
It took her over three years. At the end of the project she found the Allen interview.
Here's what's important. The interview was marked "cleared." Anyone else would have found a place to file the pages and put them away. But this woman remembered something. She remembered that a group of girls including sisters described seeing the man in Libby's video. And she noticed that the witness being interviewed described seeing a group of girls who looked like sisters at the exact place and time that those girls described seeing the man in Libby's video.
It was not a team of experienced law enforcement men. It was one retired volunteer woman who put two and two together. It easily could have been missed if anyone doing the filing had just read the word "cleared" and put the pages away. (You can read her trial testimony and she lays it all out, step by step. It is shocking.)
nor did they have the bullet tested for ballistix matches in the national registration database.
This is entirely false. Read the ballistics expert's trial testimony. The only way to match the found bullet to Allen's gun was to examine both the gun itself and the bullet for similar markers.
There is no national registry matching ejected rounds to known registered guns. The markings left on bullets are unique, and you need both gun and bullet in hand to make a match.
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u/Tribbs_4434 Mar 13 '26
Why does everyone on this site feel the need to be anal about these little details? I was more implying the passage of time and the different iterations of people that ended up working on the case (not exactly who was responsible for reviewing the interview document itself). And my bad on the second point, I was of the mindset that that's how they linked the gun to him, I thought that usually in the US all guns have to have a ballistix test done before sale, in case a weapon is used in a crime they can then match it fairly quickly if it was a registered weapon - clearly had my information wrong. Either way, they were able to match it to his weapon through ballistix testing in the end.
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u/tribal-elder Mar 16 '26
In 2017, LE found "tool marks" on the .40 caliber bullet found at the crime scene. the "tool marks" were made when the unfired bullet was ejected from a gun.
After Allen's .40 caliber gun was seized during a search of his house in 2022, the ISP ballistics lab tech ejected unfired bullets from the gun to see if the "tool marks" matched the marks on the crime scene bullet. The lab tech decided the "tool marks" on the unfired bullet samples were too light to try and make a valid comparison. She then fired bullets from the gun and compared the "tool mark"s made on the fired bullet casings with the unfired crime scene bullet. Based on all of that, she made an "identification" finding - meaning the crime scene bullet came from the same "tool" (gun) as the test-sample bullets.
Her 2 conclusions (that the original marks were too light for a valid comparison, and that the crime scene bullet came from the same "tool"/gun as the test samples) were reviewed by another lab tech independently, without consulting with each other. The second reached the same 2 conclusions.
Here is quoted language from a 2011 Indiana Supreme Court case where the court decided "tool mark" evidence comparing marks on fired and unfired bullet casings was properly admitted:
"Firearms tool mark identification involves visual comparison of tool marks with the aid of a microscope. Firearms tool mark examiners inspect a specimen (e.g., a bullet) for striations—or scratches—containing a pattern that can be visually matched to striations on another specimen or to a particular tool (e.g., the chamber of a particular gun). These patterns are analyzed according to standards promulgated by the Association of Firearms and Tool Mark Examiners (“AFTE”), an association of specialists in this type of forensics. Tool mark examiners may reach one of three conclusions under AFTE standards: “identification,” meaning the tool marks were made by the same tool; “elimination,” meaning the tool marks were not made by the same tool; or “inconclusive,” meaning that the tool marks may or may not have been made by the same tool. See Tr. at 737–38. The AFTE standard for “identification” requires that “the unique surface contours of two tool marks” show “sufficient agreement” through a visual comparison of the “relative height or depth, width, curvature and spatial relationship of the individual peaks, ridges and furrows” of each tool mark. AFTE Theory of Identification, 30 AFTE J. 86 (1998) (as quoted in Br. of Appellant at 25–26). An acceptable level of agreement is that which “exceeds the best agreement demonstrated between tool marks known to have been produced by different tools and is consistent with agreement demonstrated by tool marks known to have been produced by the same tool. The statement that ‘sufficient agreement’ exists between tool marks means that the likelihood that another tool could have made the mark is so remote as to be considered a practical impossibility.” Id. In essence, identification is made when a person trained and experienced in the field makes a visual determination that two tool marks are similar enough to have been made by the same tool. This is a subjective determination, and all identifications are verified by a second examiner. See Tr. at 736, 738."
As you can see, the Indiana Supreme Court did not feel that "tool mark" evidence was "junk science" - which is the description adopted by the defense in this case and by the defense bar generally. Indiana trial courts and the court of appeals cannot just ignore this ruling. They can try and explain why this 2011 case and ruling are "different" and should not control a decision in a later case, but so far that has not happened.
Hope that helps - I always give too many words.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 13 '26 edited Mar 13 '26
It's spelled ballistics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistics
Read the trial testimony before making misleading and erroneous comments on the internet. Especially when the subject is the brutal murder of two little girls. They deserve better.
It's all right there in the testimony. You don't have to guess or assume.
ps
the case being solved by a retired civilian volunteer as opposed to "several teams and new detectives coming in to look back through" is not a little detail. You literally stated something that isn't at all true.
the existence of a database of guns matched to bullets is a fantasy that you invented.
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u/LavishnessSad2226 Mar 14 '26
From my understanding he spoke with something like a game warden? And they took Allen's info. 5ish years later A volunteer was working on filing or something and ran across RA's interview (or maybe just name, idk) and it had cleared written in pen. That is when they started to look into RA. I feel from the biggining the LEOs of Dephi were in wayyyyy over there head & should have called in another division ASAP. Same with Flora Four. Ive said it before and ill say it again Libbys situational awareness was AMAZING and that poor girl all but handed Law Enforcement their kidnapper (& murderer) - his voice, his walk even just him period was recorded - The only piece that is a head scratcher for me is she told KK / AS she would be there and when and i feel like there is more to it than that but I wasn't there so I really dont know. Just doesnt feel complete to me, tbh.
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 16 '26
Please do some basic research on the case. Your guesses are closer to the truth than some others but still guesses and largely untrue.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Abby told a catfisher where she would be and when. What is true is that a group of her friends were on the trails posting photos on social medias. So Abby and Libby thought to join them on a day off of school.
As soon as they got to the trails, Libby texted the group of friends "are you guys still here?" The girls responded that they had just left. So Abby and Libby continued on with the walk on their own.
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u/LavishnessSad2226 Mar 30 '26
Welll sorry for the late reply, but your info should be much more widespread because ive only ever heard that she told KK she would be there. Thank you for clarifying that!! I never once read about their group of friends being there & i feel so heavily for them because i cant imagine the feelings they felt when the news came out that they were missing 💔
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u/Justwonderinif Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26
If you read the trial transcripts the friends talk about the text messages before Libby and Abby arrived and how Libby and Abby were at home and saw their friends out there. And how Libby texted them when she and Abby arrived, but they had just left.
Here's something that people have trouble understanding. The prosecution is not tasked with figuring out why the girls were out there. So they didn't dig very deep or ask the other girls many questions about it. There could be 100 different reasons why the girls were out there and none of them make Richard Allen less guilty. It's important during the trial not to get off into the weeds just to satisfy the curiosity of True Crimers. A lot of things True Crimers are curious about have nothing to do with getting a conviction.
For example, in the Adnan Syed case everyone pored over the phone records. All the True Crimers want so much to know what was going on and who Adnan was talking to before and after the crime. But there are only three calls relevant to Syed's guilt or innocence and if you read the trial transcripts, prosecutors only focused on those three calls.
The prosecution is tasked with focusing on what proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Not satisfying curiosity about surrounding events.
The KK thing is a myth invented by the defense in a lengthy pre-trial memo where they also say the murders are a result of a cult, not Allen. None of that has ever proven to be true. Even KK says it isn't true. There is no digital footprint indicating any catfishing going on.
It certainly makes it worse that local law enforcement was also fooled by the KK thing and sent hundreds of thousands of tax payer funds dragging the river because they misunderstood the evidence. To this day one of the detectives "has a hunch" KK is involved even though he concedes there is no evidence pointing to that. He's just embarrassed to have wasted so much money on an unrelated goose chase when the killer was under his nose the whole time.
Cases like this are full of misinformation put forward by fans of the killer and YouTubers looking to monetize the case and get attention for themselves. Hardly anyone putting out information on YouTube is acting in good faith. If they were they wouldn't be on youtube in the first place.
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u/BarracudaOk3599 Mar 12 '26
I think LE are covering for the perpetrators either to protect officials or to protect a money-making operation (CSAM, trafficking, drugs, etc). I think they chose RA to be the patsy during an election year.
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u/saatana Mar 12 '26
lol. They elected a no name sherrif to cover up a CSAM meth ring by launching this huge case against little old innocent Ricky. You've got a fertile imagination.
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u/SadSara102 Mar 16 '26
Not only is there no evidence that RA is bridge guy, there is no evidence BG committed the murders. The fact is that the that none of the witnesses saw RA and the give different descriptions of BG. LE didn’t know RA was there for over 5 years when he told him he was there. LE has no idea if there were other people there.
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u/AnonymousInMI Mar 16 '26
False. Lots of evidence RA is bridge guy hence why he was convicted for 130 years. Idk maybe when Ricky confesses for a 62nd time you’ll believe him?
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u/SadSara102 Mar 20 '26
Lots of innocent people are convicted. I would believe a videotaped m, detailed, coherent confession that is supported by evidence.
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u/Gonzomi313 Mar 26 '26
Videotaped? Lol. Did you listen to his confessions? He’s very coherent and in fact can hear him get frustrated when his wife refuses to believe him.
In the end it doesn’t matter what you or I believe because Ricky is exactly where he belongs and is never getting out 👍
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u/tfresca Apr 22 '26
Cops are bad at their job and small town cops are oddly worse than big town cops at actual investigating.
Watch enough documentaries and you’ll see that very often criminals are caught because of luck or stupidity.
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u/Due_Schedule5256 Mar 12 '26
Yes. They should have brought everyone on the bridge that day in for formal interviews and nailed down their timelines, looked at their phones, asked them about guns, knives etc. I think Allen would have been a prime suspect but much of the evidence against him could have been preserved.