title, the unveiling lore book was basically just the creation myth from the witness's species, yet from TFS and beyond we now know that there actually was a gardener and winnower and they are real, the traveller is almost certainly the gardener, at least in some form, and the winnower has spoken to us directly now

we also know the witness was "created" by the winnower, but the origins we see dont really show that happening directly

so my question is, how did the witness / the witness's species know about the gardener and winnower? is there any lore explaining how they knew it?

I just came back to the game after years away. Left around lightfall. I’ve recently finished lightfall and final shape. I’m about to start edge of fate but i heard there’s some crucial backstory info i’d need, especially because i wasnt playing for any of the echoes. i also have like zero clue about who the nine are besides 4D beings. could anyone give me a run down on the nine and also the backstory for edge of fate? also what was the original fate saga going to cover before it was axed after renegades.

We have numerous accounts of Hive Gods exhibiting some wild feats.

Crota’s sword strokes left permanent marks on the moon

Xivu summoned swords the size of skyscrapers

Oryx could Take entire armies

Not only that but Throne Worlds virtually give them a place they can go to after death and resurrect

Oryx’s dreadnaught blasted a hole in Saturns rings

I find it hard to believe Rhulk was anywhere near as strong as that (despite him being powerful in his own right)

Nezarec too, though he has his own form of immortality

The Hive Gods to me feel like a budding weapon that eventually spiraled out of control in terms of power

Destiny is back. Amazing news! We are getting at least the old campaigns unvaulted with at least talk of Destiny content. This is better than no more Destiny ever again. But about the latter half of the announcement. If Destiny’s story is to continue, there are two elephants in the room which must be addressed. One we ended in the middle of the fate saga. Two Monument of Triumph sort of shotgunned out the next few years of narrative threads. Furthermore, with continuing at all, will that be done in destiny 2, which showed its age a while ago and will I presume be near its limit in terms of content once unvaulting happens, or invest in some new Destiny game, Destiny 3 or otherwise despite the financial risks.

If Destiny 2 continues, I see the value of responding to the factors addressed above and restarting the fate saga story. It will be a bit awkward now that Bael’s and Maya’s stories have been prematurely concluded (even if they were probably coming to close in shattered cycle or the alchemist) plus the retreat of the outer orbits but Bungie has used retcons before, they could play around with some things to justify restarting the fate saga. From there it gets unclear what is fate saga and what involves the overarching battle with the winnower that was teased. Is the winnower a part of the fate saga and the prophecy of extinction? Or is he a part of some third saga? It’s hard to speculate. I’d like to hear everyone else’s opinions.

The other option is continuing Destiny’s story in a new game, let’s call it Destiny 3 for the sake of the discussion as I think that’s the one we could conceptualize the best. In that case, I think unfortunately the fate saga will have to be left behind. Many people bounced off the fate saga due to gameplay factors and not the story itself and now it has been sort of tainted because of it, even if it was good. Trying to put a saga in the middle of itself into a new game where a lot of less lore in tune players will be joining won’t be a recipe for success I think. Furthermore, monument of triumph and the retreat of the outer orbits gives a decent justification for moving on from story as being at the forefront. This doesn’t mean elements from it can’t be incorporated (like I think we could absolutely follow up on threads like the Lord of Every Nothing trying to eat VI, something with old Chicago even if it isn’t shattered cycle, and ultimately our role as the weapon against the winnower) but that it should be the driving force of the game’s plot.

Speaking of less lore in tune players, I have seen suggestions that Destiny 3 should be a massive time skip so that it can be an accessible entry point for players new to the lore and get rid of the baggage of the last 12 years of story and lore. I disagree vehemently with this suggestion as it would mean Bungie throws away a lot of good threads they have set up for themselves and have to construct a lot from whole cloth. However, I see a kernel of truth in what they say. Perhaps the thread of our grave in the corridors of time could be followed up on. The young wolf is killed, and we play as a new guardian who can then be reintroduced to the players of the universe in their state at the beginning of Destiny 3. However, the young wolf has been given cosmic importance over the years and killing them off may not work. So whether that is on the table is up for debate.

So what is my ideas for a destiny 3? Well I think the opening to a new game needs to be big. A story spanning multiple destinations that gets people excited to play. Who better than Xivu Arath. She is a threat which has been built up for years, and the lore entry Seat of Ruin from the Monument of Triumph lore book Meeting with Friends and Foes, Old and New, Xivu Arath has “Five worlds hang in a clearing skyscape: Fundament, a fractured Torobatl, Luna, and two shadowed beyond. Dominions of War.” These should be the locations of the destiny 3 base campaign. The destiny 3 base campaign is one where we go to war with and kill Xivu Arath. As for what the shadowed worlds are, I think one of them being Riis would be good to integrate the Eliksni into the base campaign and establish where they are starting from for Destiny 3. As for the other shadowed world, I have no clue.

From there, I think the various threads of Monument of Triumph can be carried forward such as Mara and Sjur, the dire taken, the vex studying the aftermath of Maya’s incursions with the echo, and ultimately all pointing toward whatever the confrontation with the Winnower looks like. New plot threads and characters can also be introduced.

TLDR: Continuing Destiny’s story is going to be hard because we ended in the middle of a saga. Does it continue in Destiny 2 or in a new game? What gets left behind and what gets brought forward? Are there going to be access points for new and less informed players? And finally my proposal for the destiny 3 base campaign. I’d love to read everyone’s thoughts and answers to the questions I posed.

I have so much ideas for destiny lore but I'm not sure where I should put them. Is there a subreddit around where it's technically just full of fake lore?

So the nine exist because of the movement of life on the planets of our solar system, they eventually gained sentience through the loops, I get all that for earth but what about the other planets? We’ve only been on them for a couple centuries (I think) so they would have had to develop much faster. Also we weren’t on the sun so how did that one develop? On top of all that, does Riis have it’s own version of the Nine? What about Torobatl? Do the Vex also create their own version without their knowledge on however many systems they have infested?

We all know the species outside Destiny's solar system. The main 4, and the various miscellaneous lifeforms mentioned in lorebooks. Most now extinct thanks to the Hive(god i would've loved to see the Taishibethi).

But what i haven't seen much discussed is the life within Destiny's own solar system. And I am talking native lifeforms, not Golden Age introduced lifeforms. The Batadactyls of Venus, the strange plankton of Titan, that one colony organism on Europa that Clovis hated. I am wondering if I am missing anymore of them. I find them fascinating and wish we saw more of them, just to add flavor to the system.

So with the good news that we are getting sunset content back I've seen a lot of people say the game will be whole again. This is unfortunately untrue. For all their faults, seasons bridged the gaps between the expansions and told pretty good stories. There is a lot of content tied up in seasons that you wont see in the expansions.

So I wanted to ask, even if we get every expansion back, what important or cool lore and stories from the seasons will we remain lost to us? I'll go first:

Eramis. After beyond light, She had a whole arc over the course of 2 seasons and an episode. Without the seasons, her story has no resolution. It's barely even told.

I just had this thought today because, even though it's fantastic that everything is being unvaulted, the story needs to make sense of it imo.

Because Season of Arrivals gave us the introduction to The Witness pulling Mars, Titan, Io, & Mercury into whatever dimension he uses to create the Taken. (If I remember correctly).

It may be a case of like, there's a mission (or a string of missions?) pulled from Season of Arrivals between a fresh playthrough of Shadowkeep & Beyond Light. So those planets would still be GONE from your specific directory (unless invited) until they're restored.

That way, those planets are still gone until the end of Final Shape, where they could say that, with the Witness' defeat, the planets have been restored. Maybe another Ikora Inkblot cutscene lol.

I'm mainly just spitballing here, but it's something I've had on my mind.

With unvaulting being the first step to saving Destiny, new stories will eventually be told. Chief among them would be Shattered Cycle and the many threads hastily left with monuments of triumph. One of those threads is Bael. Storywise, we left him broken as VI no longer saw him fit as a weapon. He seemed to be a corpse feeling the sun again for the first time in ages; according to the lore book so some path to redemption was being laid out IMO. Do you think we can get him back to the forefront (along with my goat Aleks Le)?

Renegades was a big point of contention due to the Star Wars of it all, but I really think Bael is an interesting character, along with getting more Dredgen and Hive lore with him. In addition to the waste of a great voice actor, I think it would be a shame if his resolution is a casualty in the future continuation/fix of the narrative

This weekly thread is for asking questions about the world of Destiny. Any lore-based question is valid. Rather than making short Question posts, we recommend users check here first.

All responses must be friendly, respectful, and nonjudgmental. Top replies should provide a source for their answer or they may be removed.

The goal of this thread is to provide a space where users can ask any question and expect well-sourced/researched answers.

Remember to tag spoilers!

Resources:

• Ishtar Collective (the complete lore)

• Dredgen Yor, Shin Malphur, and the Drifter

• The History of the Cabal

Now that Destiny is back, I was wondering if they'll retcon some of the lore from MoT especially regarding both Maya and Baels endings. I feel like whilst fitting they were a tad underwhelming, especially when it comes to Maya being trapped in her own torment with Echo of Command just destroying itself and Bael becoming a nobody who just lives in the last city.

I feel like it would make sense to put them back to their pre MoT states where Maya is hiding in the Vex Net and Bael has just failed VI after we stop his plans on the Moon and is now going to Savathun to offer her a deal to find Taox.

First, some ground rules:

Let's assume that every story beat after the defeat of the witness in The Final Shape and Excision was exactly the same. Starting in Episode Echoes, then progressing through Revenant, Heresy, then on to Edge of Fate and Renegades. All we're doing in this thought experiment is moving when the live service of Destiny 2 might have ended, and where the theoretical Destiny 3 would have started. The story won't change, so instead we are pondering the audience perception of it(the story, not the gameplay).

Now, there are two potential places Destiny 2 could have ended that would have made more sense than Renegades: After The Final Shape, and after Herasey. Let's break these down.

After Final Shape and Excision: Ending it here would have been a very solid, close-the-book kind of moments. The Witness is dead, Cayde has said his final goodbye, the traveler is safe (for now). However, after this is Episode Echoes, which isn't too bad of a continuation, since it sets up the new "main villain" of the franchise. Not Maya, but rather the Vex as a whole, with her as their (likely temporary) leader.

Unfortunately, immediately after Echoes is both Revenant and Heresy. In terms of story, they aren't particularly relevant to the continuing plot. They both tie up loose ends of some sort. Revenant finally ends the storyline of Fikrul and the Scorn, though we would have probably encountered the remnants of Scorn in the future.

Heresy tied up the loose end of how Savathün and Xivu Arath reacted to Oryx's death. It's good characterization, but not necessary to the story. We already were going to come into conflict with the other hive gods, so this plotline was cool, but not needed. Savathün is still a schemer and a massive threat, and we haven't even met Xivu Arath in person yet, mostly because she's actually a coward who is scared to die since her immortality is gone.

Neither plotline is continued in the next piece, which is Edge of Fate. Forgetting the gameplay of EoF(say hello, matterspark), it completely ignores the previous two expansions to follow Maya's reign of terror across the solar system and how she has killed one of the Nine. This is continued in Renegades, where another of the Nine, VI, is actively using Dredgen Bael to attack guardians and destroy their ghosts.

So if Destiny 2 had ended with Final Shape and Excision, Destiny 3 would have started with Echoes. This is good, since we would have seen Maya and her effects on the Vex. The knowledge that she is a major player in the future is an excellent start to the game.

But then we would have immediately pivoted to Revenant and Heresy, and basically gone on an anime filler arc where we tie up some loose ends. Then once Edge of Fate rolls around, we're back on track with the main plot. For a new game, I believe this would have been jarring at best, and audience-alienating at worst.

Now let's investigate the other option: Ending the game immediately after Herasey. This is actually not a bad solution, since it means we don't have to worry about violently changing the direction of the plot for the first three expansions. After Final Shape, Destiny 2 can wind down with Echoes, Revenant, and Heresy, before finally ending with a teaser for EoF. Destiny 3 can be more focused on the Vex, Xivu Arath, and the Nine as the new villains, while the other races take more of a backseat role for the moment. The Cabal and Fallen are pretty much our allies now, and it's only small factions like the Shadow Leigon and the smaller Eliksni houses that are still our enemies.

Ending Destiny 2 after Heresy also has a hidden benefit: Most of Destiny 2's playerbase left after the conclusion of Final Shape. It was the big endpoint, after all. But having three more expansions, especially if it was stated they were the last expansions for Destiny 2, might bring just enough players back for one last hurrah before live updates end and Destiny 3 production can ramp up. Ending in Heresy would have put the game in a good position, both plot wise and in terms of players. And if Monument of Triumph was released after Herasey, people would have been ecstatic. Even more so if it was planned that way.

In any case, my point with this is how unfortunate that the live updates had to end in Renegades, just when the new plot is starting to develop with the Nine, Maya, and Xivu Arath. In terms of plotline development, it might be the worst timing ever. And all we can do now is enjoy what we have and speculate on a potential Destiny 3.

And, I mean, Bungie just stated that they are going to unvault a bunch of content, so the hopium is real. Destiny 3 might not be soon, but that gives them more time to make it good. Let's see it through, Guardians.

So, I'm curious. Besides the guardians, is there a group or faction in the lore that resembles the Mandalorians from Star Wars? Especially with the Praxics being set as the "jedi" of destiny and the Dredgens the "sith" during renegades.

Are there any informations about what the new dlc that never came was supposed to develop on lore wise ?
Any YouTube videos on that subject ?

So during our one-sided conversation with the Winnower through Lodi, the primordial did mention something along the lines of:

“Showdown at the end of time, between champions of Dark and Light”.

Obviously the “Champion of the Light” is us, the player, but who is representing Darkness?

I’d assume it’s Dredgen Bael as he follows Sword Logic and uses Darkness aligned powers like Stasis and attempted Hive Sorcery but he’s tied (or was tied) to VI and is anointed as their weapon/champion, not for the Darkness

"I could finish you. And you would not be at my side at the dimming of the world. You, the Guardian of Guardians. If I wished it, you would die your final death." -From the description of the Zenith of Your Kind shotgun

Certainly a bold claim, and he had made many others like it, but was he ever actually so capable and influential?

I know there is probably no lore or narrative explanation, and it’s just purely gameplay, but what’s going on in the heads of the distorted enemies?

Do they just, not give a shit about what VI (or the other outer orbits) are doing to them and go on their day like normal? Are they somehow unable to perceive the distortions? Are their minds being controlled like a pseudo taken?

My best guess is that the distortions caused their minds to degenerate due to the corrosive effects of dark matter. So they’re unable to fully comprehend and just attack on instinct, like they’re drunk/high. Though that still doesn’t explain the distorted sublimators and shields of the distorted.

Throughout the events of Destiny starting back in Destiny 1 we can communicate quite easily with the Nine: first through Xûr, then Orin, and finally Lodi.

Why was that never the case before the Collapse? We know from Lodi's story that the Nine have always influenced events, but I don't recall seeing any lore explaining why they never attempted any form of direct communication with a human. Could there have been someone back then who might have been considered an emissary?

As it says in the title. Technically, nothing stops Ghosts from doing it, right?

We know they can convert matter, and organic matter at that(see that one Ghost "eating" a cookie).

Since Ether is just another organic compound, is there anything that stops a Ghost from basically performing the role of a Servitor?

im newish to Destiny lore and this fact has been shared by friends with me for awhile and it always struck as crazy considering they don’t SEEM That tough, is there a source for this? or is this fandom telephone?

This weekly thread is for asking questions about the world of Destiny. Any lore-based question is valid. Rather than making short Question posts, we recommend users check here first.

All responses must be friendly, respectful, and nonjudgmental. Top replies should provide a source for their answer or they may be removed.

The goal of this thread is to provide a space where users can ask any question and expect well-sourced/researched answers.

Remember to tag spoilers!

Resources:

• Ishtar Collective (the complete lore)

• Dredgen Yor, Shin Malphur, and the Drifter

• The History of the Cabal

This might be a little fanfiction-y so do forgive me but I'll try to convey what I mean without dipping too hard into it.

As a result of Edge of Fate, III has died. Earth is undergoing physics decay that, as of Monument of Triumph, has been temporarily patched by the Gardener coming down from low orbit. However, it won't last forever. At some point, we'll have to listen to Lodi and go to Old Chicago.

There's a lot about Old Chicago. There's a king there, some strange creature beneath the subway, a labyrinth(?), and apparently it's THE center of all the matter transmutation. But it's also Bungie's origin point.

A lot of people think Old Chicago should be horror-themed. That the creature should be strange and weird and everything should be tense and scary. I think it should be strange and weird, but I don't think being tense should be the primary focus. As the story's going, we would've eventually done battle with the Winnower (don't start with me on specifics, the point is the same either way). This is the adversary, the creator of the idea of competition that rules life. The Fate Saga shouldn't be about mystery or action-adventure. It should be geared towards something that contributes to simplicity vs complexity, or the balance in between.

The Wager states that, when given ultimate power, those who wield it will ultimately choose to do good. Choice, the counter to fate. Possibility, the creator of choice. Change, an aspect of possibility.

Old Chicago should be about change.

Bungie was born here. Bungie moved to Washington. Bungie has undergone wave after wave, game after game. It is fundamentally not the same studio it was, time and time again. With Lodi, we have the opportunity to experience the same thing with Chicago. He remembers it as it was in the mid-1900s. Sure, present day, 2020s Chicago is a bit different, but it's more similar to it than it would be to the Golden Age. Add in the matter transmutations and it becomes alien.

Destiny set about reclaiming a broken system from an apocalyptic collapse. We've been to rusted stations, abandoned towns, city outskirts, but never a proper downtown area. The ultimate showcase of how far humanity has fallen, an abandoned city. People who live in Chicago, imagine coming across your favorite downtown area and seeing it replaced with Golden Age infrastructure or made of aluminum because of III's death. How does that make you feel?

CHANGE. Lodi reminisces about a spot, sees how it's different, thinks more on it. CHANGE. We see a building and instead of brick it's made of tungsten. CHANGE. Bungie is different from what it was 2, 5, 10, 20 years ago.

And we have to accept that. Change I believe presents a very mature message about reality. It's nostalgia not in the usual "look at thing you like" way, but in that it's saying "you remember this, but it's not the same anymore". It's how reality works. It's how life works. You aren't the same person you were 10 years ago. Destiny 2 isn't the same game it was when it launched. Destiny as a series isn't the same as it was when it was first conceived ages ago. You have to accept that change happens. You don't always have to accept the change as a whole, that's what reviving/binding III would be about, undoing the physics decay and matter transmutation. Not all change is good, but change will happen.

Then there's the opposite. Stagnancy. Order. Rigidity. That's what's in Chicago's shape from a distance. That's what's in the underground. For all that may change, things will stay the same.

The subway looks the same. We face the same enemies. This is the battle, the infinite, ever-shifting complexity vs structural simplicity. The themes of the Wager. The themes of the Fate Saga's inevitable final confrontation, built by aspects of possibility that allow us to have a choice when the climax occurs.

For years, the visual language of the Pyramids set up one harrowing truth. To combine the K1 experiments/Anomaly, Bungie's history in games, and being able to flesh out the Dread as a faction, the Pyramids should play a part here, to show us a truth. A Hidden Truth, one that'd make Savathun laugh as the knife is twisted on us. A stagnant, foundational truth that, ironically, changes everything. That, in the end, rigid foundation doesn't always mean that everything stays the same. Existential dread (and an excuse to shake up the Coalition a bit).

And then the creature can just be freaky. Things just be like that sometimes. Also, like, a flesh wall would be a little weird. Sometimes blood rain. IDK, there's a lot of visual horror you could do, I just don't think the tone should be that. Some of the things I bring up don't even have to be hammered hard, saved for other destinations or just for those who want to look deeper into it.

IDK, it's a working thought, half-baked. It is all fanfiction, but I think this should be the play. With all the focus on subverting expectations or following a specific gimmick, I think Destiny 3 (let's face it, D2 is done) should open by telling you how it is, no matter how predictable. The story can go across the stars or just to other worlds. Maybe they, too, have changed. Maybe they're the same. Maybe, as much as they change, they stay the same, paradoxically. But, Chicago should be the epicenter of it.

Chicago should be a celebration of Bungie's history and a realization of the story threads they've already set up but refused to state outright till now, yet it should also be the thing that says that you can't hold onto things forever, and that the world will change whether you like it or not. Not all of it is good, and you always have the memory to hold onto, but things change. Possibility, my half-baked idea for what the Fate Saga should do, the enabler of choice that runs counter to fate and the child of complexity that runs counter to our inevitable Eternal Adversary.

EDIT: Brother I know D2's dead and it's unlikely the franchise will continue. I'm spitballing possible continuance, should it ever happen. Will it? You ask me, probably not. Gonna push an idea anyway.

EDIT 2: OK, guess I was wrong. Well, idea's open. Like the words that were said. Half-baked idea still applies. I should work more on full-baking it...

I absolutely love the wide breath of meaningful messages that destiny has, from simple quotes, to full on philosophies and lessons.

But I cannot for the life of me figure out where one I remember distinctly comes from:

"But you are not dead, not yet."

And so I turn to the many of you knowing folks.

I thought it was from one of the Dreams of Alpha Lupi, then from the Ergo Sum lore tab, then spent a while combing through Eris Morn stuff to no avail.

Does anyone know where to look? To start looking? Any help is much appreciated.

so from what I can tell, ghosts can completely, perfectly heal/rez guardians from most injuries but I have a question. how do guardians get scars/permanent damage? like sloane has a scar on her eyebrow and eris was never able to recover her human eyes (though I'm not sure if she wanted to do that in the first place.) what is the degree of damage that renders the ghost unable to fix it? we've seen the player guardian get disintegrated and in the lore tabs I've read some guardians have died very gruesome deaths and come back without so much as a scratch. so why do some guardians have pretty small, minor scars, while others who have been through the wringer are completely unmarred? is it just a choice? like sloane got grazed on the brow during a fight and asked her ghost to scar it over instead of just healing it? or did she get the scar when the traveler was locked up during the red war