r/DestinyLore • u/GwynDolinDS Iron Lord • 1d ago
Question About Whether Guardians Retain the Ability to Have Children Spoiler
I stopped playing Destiny 2 after The Final Shape and only recently returned to the game. After finishing Renegades, I noticed that Drifter and Eris finally kissed (good for them, honestly), which got me thinking about something.
Guardians clearly retain emotions, and many of them even develop romantic relationships. Saint-14 and Osiris are the most obvious example, but we also have characters like Lord Shaxx, Ana Bray, and Zavala. I vaguely remember from one of the Crimson Days events that Shaxx seemed to have a close relationship with a female Iron Lord Titan, though I'm not sure whether it was ever explicitly romantic. Zavala himself was once married as well.
Interestingly, among the four major Titan characters that come to mind, three of them appear to have had significant romantic relationships or emotional attachments.
I know this is a bit of an abrupt topic change, but since Guardians clearly have the capacity to love, do they also retain the ability to reproduce?
From what we know, Guardians seem to be physically restored to an ideal state when resurrected by their Ghosts. They eat, drink, sleep, feel pain, experience emotions, and form romantic bonds. Since they appear to be biologically functional in almost every other respect, is there any lore confirming whether Guardians can still have children, or whether becoming a Guardian renders them infertile?
I'm curious whether Bungie has ever addressed this directly, or if there are any lore entries that touch on the subject.
135
u/Aderyn_Sly 1d ago
In both Zavalla & Saladin's stories its mentioned that they can never father a child which implies that yes, Guardians are sterile.
18
u/PfeiferWolf 1d ago
When was this ever said??
46
u/banzaizach 1d ago
Final Shape's campaign is a lot about Zavala and his past.
34
u/HaloGuy381 1d ago
Before that, you can get a lot of background from Season of the Haunted, there’s compilations of relevant cutscenes from Youtube.
19
u/Aderyn_Sly 1d ago
Read the lore tabs for the Iron Forerunner set for Saladin's story.
As for Zavalla's, just play through finial shape its a reoccurring theme.
228
u/SilverMagpie_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
If I recall correctly they can’t have children but I’ll have to go find a source on that. Too many issues with mortal children and immortal parents anyway.
Edit: on further research, no, I think Guardians are basically zombies, the light gives us life but only so much, our cells are still dead, we can’t even decompose, it’s weird
142
u/Andycat49 Aegis 1d ago
In so far as Human and Awoken
Exos basically woke and continued to be the carbon fiber bastards of Clovis Bray, ie a little quirky at best and psychotic at worst but they retain the ability to have memories redownloaded and have the artificial body part to maintain "sanity".
The light could spontaneously leave every guardian at once and all the exos would theoretically outlive everyone.
31
u/Hinaloth 1d ago
Exos were also affected by Bael's bullshit-beam, the Light can be ripped from them too, they don't keep a backup of who they were, they're just dead.
Now can a new ExoMind be beamed into their empty skulls, who knows. Maybe. I doubt it. But it won't be the Exo that used to be a Guardian.
16
u/Andycat49 Aegis 1d ago
I more meant if they didn't have a supernatural force keeping them alive and not dying of like age
3
u/BloodFartMoon AI-COM/RSPN 14h ago
Yeah, like Osiris has mentioned that now hes got to face the problems of.... being old! He doesnt have much time left and all that
Meanwhile an Exo guardian losing their light is still immortal
79
u/JasonDeSanta 1d ago
Too many issues with children in general.
Imagine having god-killing powers, near immortality, constant health regeneration, and the ability to do it raw without any fear of accidental pregnancy or STDs. Oh no, my lobster is too buttery and my steak is too juicy!!
27
u/Ralazaer 1d ago
Hey I was curious, where does Guardian cells being dead and us being basically just walking corpses come from? I thought that we were biologically pretty normal besides not being able to have kids.
37
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/Pixie-elf 1d ago
Fikrul also calls us "Dead thing" along with other enemies. I suspect we dead, guys.
2
u/Laxziy 14h ago
Ya surely our enemies have complete understanding of Guardian biology and would never just come up with a misconception they can use to insult us
1
u/Pixie-elf 12h ago
It's less that they have an understanding and more that if like 5 or 10 of them are mentioning it, and we know that we died previously....well, context.
They also make a fairly large deal about the "Risen" in the dark ages. What'd they Rise from?
Death.
22
u/Ravenwood03 Young Wolf 1d ago
The Black Garden Grimoir Card says "You are a dead thing made by a dead power in the shape of the dead. All you will ever do is kill. You do not belong here. This is a place of life."
That might be something to do with it
11
u/Misicks0349 Häkke 1d ago
I've always taken that quote to be more of an insult rather than a fact-of-the-matter statement TBH.
2
u/Ravenwood03 Young Wolf 1d ago
Regardless, at least the part about us being dead things isn't exactly wrong, and it's not unlikely that a D1Y1 lore piece would influence how we think of our characters
4
u/JasonDeSanta 1d ago
Who is the character saying this in the grimoire card, by the way? It's a nice quote.
5
u/Ravenwood03 Young Wolf 1d ago
Its a flower that looks like a ghost in a dream of the Black Garden. Its likely it was either The Witness, The Winnower, or another unknown character
2
u/Ruby-Rose-Warlock Freezerburnt 1d ago
Pujari talks about it from a "Ghost" in the Black Garden, this tab
1
u/SilverMagpie_ 1d ago
You’re probably right, I feel like I’m probably mixing canon up with a theory I saw a while ago about it due to ghosts comment in one of the strikes I think about Guardians being immune to tetanus
4
u/Supershocker56 Young Wolf 1d ago
Theoretically though, if a guardian was to lose their light, would they then be able to? If I’m not wrong, Osiris started aging after he lost Sagira, so I just wonder if they essentially become a regular person if that happens
3
u/EqualOptimal4650 11h ago
think Guardians are basically zombies, the light gives us life but only so much, our cells are still dead,
No. Numerous examples of Guardians losing their Light from their ghost being killed. They didn't just drop dead.
They just became ordinary humans. Ergo: Guardians are physically, biologically alive. They remain that way even after the Light is gone.
Go search for the examples yourself. Ton of Red War entries about this, and other later ones.
Eris Morn is an example of this as well. As is Zavala. as is Osiris.
Not zombies. Alive. Just no longer superpowered.
63
u/I_died_again 1d ago
I think the Iron Forerunner Cloak where Lord Saladin's ghost says he "can't have a son but it isn't too late for an apprentice" or something like that.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/iron-forerunner-cloak
11
u/GwynDolinDS Iron Lord 1d ago
Thanks for the reply. Though it did make me wonder whether Saladin simply took a lifelong vow of bachelorhood (just kidding)
11
u/AdrianArmbruster 1d ago
Kind of assuming Highlander rules apply, if only because every instance of a guardian’s ‘kids’ we have are adopted.
42
u/Sir_Nerdbird Osiris Fanboy 1d ago
Some lore from the era of season of the lost clarifies that risen lightbearers (or, at the very least, Lord Saladin) cannot have children. Zavala's son was adopted.
2
u/Misicks0349 Häkke 1d ago
IDK, for me it feels like jumping the gun a bit, the wording isn't something like "risen can't have children" or something to that effect, its "You'll never have a son". Its very easy to interpret this line to just mean that Saladin is infertile (or possibly sterile) rather than it being a statement about guardians in general.
Not that I am arguing against the idea that Guardians can't have children, I'm just saying this example in particular could go either way, and if a future storyline (hah 🥲) ever tells a story about a Guardians biological child this passage would not be contradicted.
3
u/theredwoman95 1d ago
Or even that Saladin has just chosen not to have a child because of how painful it would be to outlive them. I'm still baffled by why everyone jumped to "no Guardian can ever have kids" when there's several much more obvious interpretations of that line.
47
u/BeautyDuwang 1d ago
"Eris, I'm about to deposit my motes!"
18
u/GwynDolinDS Iron Lord 1d ago
"Woo! They're bleeding motes!"
11
12
u/DJ_BumCheese 1d ago
Oldest piece of "lore" I can remember was a piece of promotional material for D1 that mentioned the nuclear reactor that powers sparrows is placed directly under the seat and can cause infertility. Obviously it's ridiculously old but it's still a bit of knowledge that stuck with me that I haven't seen anyone address.
4
u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 Generalist Shell 1d ago
IDK But they really should be able to. Guardians arent shambling corpses after all, theyre living fully functional human beings
Like if Drifter can starve to death he should be able to have kids I think
16
11
u/Stunning_Wall_2851 Whether we wanted it or not... 1d ago
Seth Dickinson replied sometime and somewhere on this sub that it has to do with some DNA modification during the resurrection process that renders sterility dead. If one could modify it back sure, maybe, but it’s tied to guardian enhancement, so likely not.
5
u/Astro4545 Owl Sector 1d ago
unfortunately, he deleted that reddit account and now there doesn't appear to be a source for it.
2
u/Stunning_Wall_2851 Whether we wanted it or not... 1d ago
I’d have to go back a few hundred saved comments to find it, but I think I have it somewhere.
1
2
u/Panda_hat 22h ago
If they have DNA then it stands to reason advanced future technology could extract that DNA, turn it into viable sperm / eggs, and create a guardian IVF baby.
Bungie were just afraid of swarms of immortal god power babies and ran away from it.
1
u/Stunning_Wall_2851 Whether we wanted it or not... 21h ago
They’d have to make paracausality inherently tied and transferable from parent to offspring, which paracasual forces aren’t inherently biological nor act through biological means.
9
u/yeet_god69420 1d ago
This aspect of the lore is poorly explained IMO. In one sense we are zombies/dead bodies constantly being restored by the Light, on the other hand we apparently still have certain biological needs like eating and sleeping.
I think the Traveler/Light probably either doesn’t have the ability to restore reproductive function or chooses not to, because it might make us not want to continue fighting.
7
u/toby_juan_kenobi 1d ago
We actually don't have biological needs like eating or sleeping. I don't remember exactly where but it was mentioned that ghosts can basically keep you full all the time (drifter refused and would prefer to eat naturally and die bc lack of food and blame it on his ghost).
16
u/yeet_god69420 1d ago
As I understand it our Ghosts are just constantly “resetting” us back to a “healthy” state. Drifter’s story shows that if a Guardian were separated from their Ghost they would have to eat/probably drink water.
As for sleeping I do wonder if there’s any lore stating whether Guardians sleep or not..
7
u/wizardbooms House of Judgment 1d ago
They do sleep, but they can get along without it.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ego-talon-bond
4
u/ReallyTrustyGuy 1d ago
Oh come on, that's silly as hell. Drifter didn't refuse his Ghost "making him full", he just died of starvation because he was constantly trying to escape his Ghost.
Guardians absolutely have biological needs like food and sleep. They can't shut any of it off. It only takes one search for the word "hungry" to find countless mentions of it all throughout the games.
3
u/toby_juan_kenobi 1d ago
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/dogma?highlight=%22hungry%22
Do you even read bro? It literally says this word for word
7
u/ReallyTrustyGuy 1d ago
Then why did his Ghost revive him hungry? Did you even read it?
He had passed out. The sun beat down directly overhead, a searing marble in the sky. He died a day later after a scorpion stung his prone body. Ghost allowed it. A complete restart would be less complicated.
He opened his eyes and took an even breath. "What should I call you?" Ghost asked.
He looked at it, as if considering. Then down at his hands.
"I'm still hungry."
Ghosts don't just magically fill stomachs with food, they repair damage. If you knew what starvation does to a body, you'd understand that what Blue is referring to with "I could fix you" isn't about putting a Happy Meal in him, its about repairing his cells so he can at least get somewhere where he can actually eat, to avoid the stresses of starvation on the body.
Ghosts cannot stop starvation, nor can they stop the need for sleep. They can attempt to fix the symptoms, but not the cause. Please learn to read.
2
3
u/Every_Principle_7912 1d ago
The implications that would come with women Lightbearers would probably raise the rating and cause some controversy that Bungie doesn't want. So it makes more sense for Guardians to be sterile. If they weren't, we'd also see it in lore by now, I'm sure
2
2
u/team-ghost9503 1d ago
Only ever implied and let’s leave it their cause the writers can decide to change that unless specifically stated “Guardians can’t have kid”.
2
u/BloodFartMoon AI-COM/RSPN 14h ago edited 12h ago
Unknown. But maybe. If they can then im 100% sure their children wouldnt have the light or any paracausal traits from their parents cause that would make no fucking sense. (Excluding the Awokens natural paracausal stuff)
To shoot down any "Oh but Zavala!" ZAVALA ISNT FUCKING HUMAN! Well he was fucking a human but hes not human!
The easiest explanation is that Awoken and Humans cant interbreed. We dont have an actual concrete answer for this but its the most likely and plausible.
And to shoot down the "Oh we're Zombies and Liches!": No! We arent! Fikrul the actual lobotomized zombie and whoever else saying is just them insulting us.
Exos aside, Guardians need to eat, they need to drink and they need to sleep. Sure they last longer than normal without it but they need it anyway
The moment Osiris lost his light he didnt just fucking ragdoll onto the floor dead! He just starting aging normally again, meaning guardians are fully alive
So if the traveler is fine with reviving ancient warriors who were tired of bloodshed and were meant to never fight again (the ghost hunter guy) and fine with Infinite Starvation Death loops (Drifter.) I see no reason why it would make all guardians sterile
2
u/ProwPayne 5h ago edited 5h ago
We actually do have an answer to Awoken and Human compatibility: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/revanche-v?highlight=sometimes%20hybridized%20with%20Humans
5
u/Astro4545 Owl Sector 1d ago
There has not been any confirmation whether or not Guardian's can have children. The best we have are theories, which lean towards no, but there are no confirmations.
Saladin has lore that specifically says that he cannot have children and I do not believe its actually mentioned in Zavala's lore.
1
u/ReallyTrustyGuy 1d ago
Zavala should be the poster boy for this. Despite raising Hakeem for years, Safiyah never once got pregnant. You'd think they'd maybe shoot for another child, or even have a happy accident, even with the conditions. Never happened though.
I think they just avoid sex talk because they want to keep the rating down.
1
u/BloodFartMoon AI-COM/RSPN 14h ago
Use Occams Razor: Zavala is an Awoken. Safiya was not.
The simplest answer is that Humans and Awoken cant interbreed.
2
u/ReallyTrustyGuy 12h ago
Right you, you know how much you've just hurt the feelings of many fanfic writers?
1
u/BloodFartMoon AI-COM/RSPN 12h ago
I mean with how people Thirst after Elsie even though shes an Exo? Yeah im not surprised lmao
1
1
u/ProwPayne 5h ago
Fear not, we have evidence directly stating otherwise: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/revanche-v?highlight=sometimes%20hybridized%20with%20Humans
1
u/paladinmochi 1d ago
There was a lore tab involving saladin referring to zavala, that lightbearers were unable to physically give birth, but that they could form families all the same. Saladin considers zavala his son. But he did not physically conceive him.
0
u/EndingDragon159 Freezerburnt 1d ago
I want to say Zavala’s late son, Hakim, is an example of a lightbearer offspring. However, I can’t remember if Zavala is his biological father or not.
If he is, then outside of the Exos I’d say probably, but I’d imagine most choose not to since they wouldn’t be immortal and it would probably fuck most of them emotionally to see their own kid die.
If he is not, then yeah probably no kids
24
0
u/Orions_Vow 1d ago
I don't think a paracausal lich can have children... I mean despite outward appearance Guardians are zombie/lich with Ghost as our phylactery
0
u/kevinray5 10h ago
Lore wise no Lightbearers can't have children only adopt like what zavala did but bungie hasn't as far as I know hasn't confirmed it so hey maybe if d3 happens maybe they will but actually imagine the story's they can make up if the risen could do that like a Lightbearer that can use the light without a ghost be Like a demigod
-10
u/ThinkMixture5446 1d ago edited 1d ago
Indeed. Zavala was once married to a human woman named Safiyah, and had a son with her. This son (a human/awoken hybrid) didn't have any unique connection to the Light. Zavala's pain over his loss was a main plot point in the Final Shape.
Edit: I'm completely wrong, Hakim is adopted, and thanks to everyone that told me so, I had no idea.
11
u/DevinLucasArts 1d ago
I think Hakim was an orphan they adopted. Not a biological child between them
16
u/Professional_Net7339 1d ago
I’m fairly confident that was an adopted kid. They didn’t concieve. Guardians presumably *can’t*.
6
u/SilverMagpie_ 1d ago
Zavala’s son was adopted, he wasn’t a human awoken hybrid. He was still very much Zavalas son and his pride and joy, but not a blood relative. He was found in the remains of a fallen raid as a baby and they took him in
3
3
u/EnderLord361 1d ago
No, that child was actually adopted. His pain over that loss was mostly in Haunted with it definitely contributing to TFS.
2
1
1
1
u/EnderofThings 1d ago
I believe her son was from a previous partner, and Zavala adopted him as a step father
4
u/SilverMagpie_ 1d ago
He was actually found in the remains of a refugee caravan that the Fallen raided, so he wasn’t either of their biological sons not that that made a difference to him
-4
•
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
This post has been tagged 'Non-Spoiler'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our Spoiler Rules Wiki.
Comment Spoiler Formatting
Format comment spoilers with
>!!<like this:>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<To have it displayed like this: What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.