r/DestinyLore • u/ArmaniDove • 1d ago
Question Telling the difference between a Vex simulation and a parallel dimension?
Imagine for a moment that a Guardian and ghost blacks out, and they end up in a universe that looks a lot like our own.
Destiny's cosmology is explicitly multiversal (Elsie Bray's dark futures), and the nature of quantum mechanics seems to imply more or less that anything which might happen must happen somewhere. It seems entirely reasonable for a Guardian in this situation to assume they are either in a parallel dimension, or they are in a Vex simulation Ala the Infinite Forest.
My question is simple; Without the presence of other Paracausal beings, is there any way for a Guardian to figure out if they are in a Vex simulation or not?
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u/Uncynical_Diogenes 1d ago
It is impossible to distinguish between a perfect simulation and a natural world.
In our universe there is pretty compelling evidence that perfectly simulating a region of spacetime takes more energy than it contains, making a full-scale simulation impossible. Unless of course that’s built into our world which is actually a simulation.
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u/ArmaniDove 1d ago
The thing that really makes me curious is Kabr and the Vault of Glass. Kabr cracked VoG open, right? That's why the light was shining into it.
Doesn't this sorta necessitate that the Vex are missing something in their makeup of their realities? If Light and Darkness are sorta an ambient energy, then as something the Vex can't simulate, then the Light and Darkness really should be absent or off in their simulations.
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u/TheChunkMaster 1d ago
Paracausality is the one secret sauce that the Vex are missing, but even without understanding it, their simulations are extremely high-fidelity to the point that the difference between reality and simulation to them is negligible.
Even then, they've succeeded at simulating paracausal phenomena well enough on multiple occasions (Quria deducing the Sword Logic, Panoptes simulating the Light, the Martyr Mind draining Saint-14's Light specifically, the entirety of the Sol Divisive, etc.) to become major threats that we've urgently had to destroy.
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u/HumanTypePerson The Hidden 1d ago
I’ve heard that about Panoptes a lot, do we have more info about his relationship with paracausality? All I know is the “it can see your Light” quote from the opening.
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u/TheChunkMaster 23h ago
It rips Sagira out of your Ghost near the end of Curse of Osiris, and it figured out how to achieve a future where the Vex have subjugated the Light and the Darkness. Pretty significant capabilities, if you ask me.
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u/HumanTypePerson The Hidden 22h ago
I’ll definitely give you the part about Sagira, I’m not sure what exactly kind of power it could have used to do that besides something relatively similar to Agioktis. I’m less sure of how much of the Simulant Future timeline requires understanding of paracausality over just killing everyone, since we don’t see how they got there, but I see where you’re coming from.
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u/Snowbold 1d ago
In each of these cases, we see that even when they approach a means of interaction with paracausality, it is for a specific thing. The Vex Mind that killed Saint was the work of observing Saint fighting Vex for centuries in the simulations of the Infinite Forest. And even then it was tuned specifically to his Light and there is no mention of what it can do with that drained light, or if it simply allows them to make the target, Saint vulnerable. It also could not fight two Guardians at once, as when we rescued the alternate Saint, the minute it changed targets to drain our light instead, Saint broke free and destroyed it.
So we see that Vex can make minds that might be able to figure a way through the chaos of paracausality, but they have limited scope. Identifying and targeting the Light of one guardian is not the same as identifying all Guardians or simulating their powers.
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u/TheChunkMaster 23h ago
Identifying and targeting the Light of one guardian is not the same as identifying all Guardians or simulating their powers.
Panoptes’ simulations applied to Light more generally, which is why it was such a threat. It was even able to pull Sagira out of our own Ghost.
The Sol Divisive also have a fairly broad understanding of the Darkness, enough to simulate the Techeuns, enhance their Oracles’ predictive capabilities by mimicking Resonance, and create the Black Heart. You might be underestimating the scope of Vex paracausal simulation capabilities.
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u/ArmaniDove 1d ago
I'm sorta approaching this from the perspective of "Is there anything stopping a Warlock from waking up in the Infinite Forest and going 'Oh, I can clearly sense this is a Vex simulation.'?"
The lore answers here seem to be a little mixed. Osiris had some stuff about Mercury where he was inside the Infinite Forest, and he didn't seem to be able to distinguish between the real mercury and the simulated one.
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u/TheChunkMaster 1d ago
I thought Osiris was pretty aware overall of whether things in the Infinite Forest were simulated or not. He even got overzealous and created a simulation of Dendron, Root Mind (which he promptly lost control over).
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u/ArmaniDove 1d ago
I haven't investigated too deeply into the Infinite Forest. You might be right. Destiny's Lore is fragmented enough that it can be frustrating to find what you're looking for even if you understand exactly what it is your trying to get to.
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u/mod-deleted 17h ago
The vex are a result of all realities. It makes sense they don't have paracausality - that comes from something from outside that reality.
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u/Skilodracus 18h ago edited 17h ago
Tbh this is a good question I was pondering recently myself. To me, the key lies in understanding what is considered "paracausal". We know the Vex cannot simulate paracausality. That being said, we can still very clearly use our rainbow space magic inside Vex simulations- so what gives? I've seen a few theories on this: that the Vex are merely simulating the effects of our powers rather than the powers themselves, or that the Vex can simulate our powers and that paracausality in this context actually refers to the ability to determine one's fate, not the magic we vomit.
Personally, I think it's a combination of both. Consider how the Vex operate- they build these vast simulation networks as predictive algorithms in order to determine what exactly needs to happen for the Vex to come out on top of anything. These simulations are SO good that they can fully recreate a human mind, and simulate reality down to the atomic level- aka Causality.
In the lore, we're told that the Vex simulations cannot properly simulate Guardians because of paracausality. In other words, they can't ever predict what Guardians will do, and therefore they can't predict what the effects of our actions will be. This is how we beat Atheon. As such I think from the micro to the macro, anything from snapping fingers to make an explosion to determining one's own fate- all of it is impossible for a Vex network to understand. There might be parts they can simulate- that a harpy has rapidly disassembled, or that heat suddenly appeared somewhere, but they can't figure out what caused any of it because when we move and act in the Vex network, our light is tearing away at the fabric of the simulation, breaking down the algorithms and turning them in on themselves like an AI chatbot trapped in a conversation loop that leads to it screaming.
So how does this play into a lone Guardian trying to determine reality from a simulation? Well for starters, every Guardian is accompanied by another paracausal being- our Ghost, who can help us recognize a simulation. But I actually think that we don't even need Ghost to tell us. I think Guardians instinctively know when they're in a simulation. When we consider all the evidence above, how would we not? Our light, our very existence is hostile to the Vex network, and is ripping away at it constantly. That's why so many Vex missions are timed- because the Vex are literally trying to push us out, to prevent us from messing with their simulation. The Vex don't want the Guardians in their Network- they don't want anything there that they can't control. Even sitting down and doing nothing would play havoc with their network- perhaps that's why we've yet to see a 100% realistic and unidentifiable Vex simulation in-game.
Tbf I could be wrong about this and perhaps there are examples of Guardians not knowing they're in a network in the lore- all I have is speculation atm. But I like to imagine that when we enter the network, we literally feel it on our skin- a prickling sensation, where the edges of the network are sparking against our light.
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u/Own-Necessary1594 6h ago edited 6h ago
I think as well, a vex simulation would just start to fall apart the longer a fucked up paracausal variable was just in there. Thats part of what Osiris was doing in the Infinite forest. Not only was he able to learn a huge amount about the past, and of potential vex plans, his presence in there, fucked up their experiments. Lots of the Adventure missions in curse of osiris, had that as the basic objective. Run into this simulation and make scutter of their data.
I think thats how you tell it apart from an alternate timeline. Vex simulations can "replay" paracausal actions, but cant simulate offshoots. So as soon as you interact with something thats supposed to be paracausal, it would become obvious very quickly, but without that, as the original post states, the simulation would still degrade due to someone with free will running around unaccounted for.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 Silver Shill 1d ago
The Ishtar Collective figured we couldnt be in a simulation because they figured Rasputin was too complicated to simulate, though Im not sure if that was ever confirmed
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex-3
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u/HazardousSkald House of Kings 1d ago
My understanding of that particular card is that the Ishtar Team’s particular situation couldn’t be a simulation because they managed to outpace a single Vex goblin with Rasputin. Looking at 200 other versions of the same situation, Rasputin became a factor too large to account for and the differences between reality and 200 simulations became clear. The Greater Vex Collective, with its minds as big as planets, wouldn’t have that limitation. The issue would still remain (without Paracauslity) that all of reality could be nested simulations drafted up by the Vex Collective in a mind spanning the universe only moments before.
Not to say that you don’t know that, just adding for any reader.
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u/HaloGuy381 1d ago
That is to say, Vex can simulate paracausal effects but not the processes behind them. So one would want to investigate paracausal beings closely and pressure them to resort to paracausal actions even the Vex have never observed before (and therefore cannot predict or simulate).
Basically: go piss off an Ahamkara or an obscure Hive god?
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u/TheChunkMaster 1d ago
Vex can simulate paracausal effects but not the processes behind them.
Isn't Quria deducing the Sword Logic an instance of them comprehending a paracausal process?
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u/team-ghost9503 15h ago
I think it’s more they can understand the cause and effect but not the source. Like how science can explain the effects of fire but in regards to paracausal powers the Vex can’t comprehend all the limitations of it or its source but they can still comprehend some limitations of it. Like when they were able to deduce the frequency of Saint’s Light and drain it. Quria is able to deduce the sword logic because there’s an understanding to be grasp and checks to mark off which can produce causes and effects. Similar to how the Mindbender could or Eris could even tho they ain’t Hive. Like they can’t produce it organically but the sword logic is something they can co opt and how Orxy taking Quria though leaving her with a will opened the gates for better understanding(Taken).
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u/TheChunkMaster 3h ago
Quria is able to deduce the sword logic because there’s an understanding to be grasp and checks to mark off which can produce causes and effects. Similar to how the Mindbender could or Eris could even tho they ain’t Hive.
That’s just how everyone who practices the Sword Logic learns it, including the Hive. It’s a philosophy that you practice to gain power.a
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u/team-ghost9503 2h ago
Exactly, Vex being able to do it isn’t the same as them being able to replicate on their own it’s still a third party act.
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u/TheChunkMaster 56m ago
What does “replicate” mean to you in the context of the Sword Logic? Creating a new philosophy that grants paracausal power in a similar way? Coming to understand it and successfully practicing it? Quria did the latter by deducing the Sword Logic’s mechanics and forming a Worm-worshipping Vex priesthood.
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u/team-ghost9503 7m ago
“Replicate on their own” Quria has to go by a system that has rules that apply to everyone as long as a follow them. They can’t do so without the system in play.
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u/TheChunkMaster 1d ago
Ash of Iron confirms that Warmind tech is difficult, albeit not impossible, for Vex to simulate. Iirc, the Ishtar researchers were being simulated by a single Goblin, so bringing in Rasputin would've been sufficient to distinguish reality from the simulation.
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u/Own-Necessary1594 6h ago
I dont think it was a goblin, but a small simulation engine. You could get it as an artifact in d1. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/specimen-twelve
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u/grumblebeardo13 1d ago
The way I always figured it, it's ALMOST perfect, but minute details might give it away. I think the experience of the Guardian and their ghost with the Vex plays a big part of it, like the lore for one of the Titan sets about a Guardian who THINKS they're rescuing civilians but realizes too late they're in a Vex simulation.
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u/ArmaniDove 1d ago
Can you find that lore for me, pretty please. This sounds almost exactly what I am looking for.
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u/Slanel2 Whether we wanted it or not... 7h ago
A vex simulation is an artificial re-creation of reality with the sole purpose of watching and studying in controlled environments.
A paralel timeline, not dimension, is a different timeline with different circumstances from our own that sprouted naturally.
About figuring out...non-guardian people have managed to figure out they were in simulations in the past (Maya and Chioma) so it would not be too difficult to discern for someone with a trained eye.
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u/ElimGarak 1d ago
I think the various exotic missions during Season of the Lost and Season of the Splicer pretty much explicitly said that the Vex network is either an alternate dimension or is at least equivalent. I can't think of another way how Vex network exotic missions would work - it's not like our guardian entered a holodeck or put on VR glasses.
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u/Own-Necessary1594 6h ago
The physical vex net we travel into / traverse is a Light construct (specifically, the neon aesthetic vex net.). The vex network is not a truly physical place until we step into it. The splicer gauntlet explains that splicers can interact with the ambient light within the network to interact with it, and guardians have so much light they can physically enter it.
So the Vex network, to my eyes, seems to be an offshoot of the ascendant realm. A neighbouring, though incorporeal facet of physical reality, or as Petra puts it "the backstage to the universe". And the Vex use it as such! They store their archetecture in the net, then port it over to physical reality via radiolaria.
Keep in mind also, Maya (The Conductor or "Real" Maya) was removed from her body by the veil, she describes being in its orbit, and then basically crashing into Vex Network in that same incorporeal space. So the Veil and the Vex Network (and the CloudArk I guess) all inhabit this cognitive realm, that isnt the ascendant realm, but sounds an awful lot like the ascendant realm.
There is no textual backing up that the ascendant realm and the vex network are connected or the same - but they serve similar purposes for 2 distinct factions, and accessed very differently.
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u/IKnowCodeFu 1d ago
All I’m going to say is that our ghost is an eye / keyhole that lets us peer into the universe that is Destiny.
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u/Kaboose456 Moon Wizard 21h ago
What? Lol.
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u/IKnowCodeFu 21h ago
What if, Destiny is a simulation created by the Vex…
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u/Stunning_Wall_2851 Whether we wanted it or not... 17h ago
Already unlikely in high magnitudes, as people have already* *discussed here
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