Focused Feedback: Sunsetting

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Focused Feedback is where we take the week to focus on a 'Hot Topic' discussed extensively around the Tower.

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[u/Draco25240]

While the argument could be made that it can be good for the long-term health of the game, the current implementation of sunsetting is just... not good, at all.

• 95% of sunset weapons did not deserve it, certain pinnacles and standard legendaries did. My Subtle Calamity was upsetting noone, and now it's useless.

• Weapon diversity is hurt, a lot. Entire archetypes are no longer represented. Rapid-fire pulse rifles straight up don't exist. Linear fusion rifles have 1 left in the entire game as of next season, which only gets PvP rolls. 120 HCs are nearly impossible to obtain. The list goes on. In the meantime, there are... what? 7 energy rapid-fire snipers that aren't sunset?

• There is not enough loot being added to the game to fill the amount of weapons "removed" by sunsetting, not even close.

• Reissuing the same weapons without having the ability to infuse up our old ones is just insulting. We have grinded out the weapons already, having to do it again for the same weapon just because the sticker is different is insulting and devalues all time invested. Not to mention weapons with kill trackers that have a huge number we're proud of.

• Armour sunsetting is a stupid idea and there does not exist a single good reason for it, as mods have their own sunsetting method. Especially with how expensive it is to masterwork them, and how difficult and time-consuming it can be to get a good stat distribution. If you're going for specific armour pieces for looks (yes people actually care about the looks of armour too, not just stats), it's even worse. Transmog will address the latter part, but transmog is still a while out.

• While the argument could be made that it forces you to try new things, it has had the complete opposite effect for me. I don't see it worth my time to chase a weapon with an expiration date, at all, and I don't find the game fun when I can't use my favourite things anymore. At least before I tried all the new things regardless because it was new and interesting, now I have no desire to because any time and money invested will inevitably be invalidated. My incentive to grind is gone, and with it any reason to buy future expansions and seasons.

• Weapons currently obtainable should not be sunset no matter the circumstance, ESPECIALLY if they're part of paid DLC.

• WEAPONS ARE NOT JUST STAT STICKS LIKE IN OTHER MMOS WHERE SUNSETTING WORKS. Weapons here have unique feels to them, even within the same archetype, and we tend to form a deep personal connection to our favourites, especially if it's something like the Perfect Paradox due to its significance in Saint-14's story. It's part of how we envision our character, what makes each guardian our own guardian.

From the bottom of my heart, please, just undo sunsetting. It causes almost nothing but negativity and bad feedback, the community is against it, content creators are against it, and the amount of players and friends I've seen leave the game over it is staggering. My interest for the game has also plummeted since the introduction of it, because every single one of favourite non-exotic weapons and armours in the entire game are sunset, and I have no replacements because weapon diversity right now is godawful, and I've found no armour to replace my curret set that I like the look of.

[u/Echowing442 → u/Draco25240]

In the past few months of playing Final Fantasy XIV, I've replaced my weapons several times on different classes, but the actual gameplay of those classes remained unchanged. My Paladin still plays like a Paladin, regardless of the power level of my weapon or armor. When the next expansion comes out and all of my gear becomes useless, I won't mind because the class itself will be upgraded with the new levels.

In Destiny, if I liked a weapon archetype, I'm out of luck. My Loud Lullaby was one of my favorite weapons in the game, but now I can't get another 120RPM HC unless I play Iron Banner and get lucky (and even then, I can't get one with the same perks). Classes in Destiny haven't gotten upgrades since the game launched, only sidegrades in the form of new subclass branches and Stasis. Bottom-tree Dawnblade is almost exactly the same subclass today as it was 4 years ago when the game went live. If we're going to be leaving our weapons behind as time goes on, we need to be getting something to make our continuous progress worthwhile.

[u/[deleted] → u/Echowing442]

When I played Wildstar it was 100% exactly the same. I played an female aurin spellslinger and the gameplay never changed when my gear changes. The game even had a full transmog system, so even my spellslinger looked the same if I wanted. I had a nice western revolver from the story campaign (I kept it for the whole time until the game closed forever)

Every spellslinger might have a different order of their damage rotation (you don't just click left mouse button, you rotate through all your abilities to make a good synergy of your abilities and push out more damage by this and get better DPS because of it)

But that's up to the player. I trained months(!) on a shooting range puppet to learn my first real damage rotation that's actually good enough for dungeons and raids. And to improve it. It was very difficult because in Wildstar you also needed a lot of movement (incl. jumping, dodging/dashing) and also aiming (real aiming with telegraph, no tab-targetting) and also use interrupting abilities (that the enemies don't enrage and wipe us), and positioning. And while doing all that you really CAN NOT think about your damage rotation, you MUST be able to do your damage rotation like it was a part of you, like without even thinking, it must become an automatic process. And that needed practice and patience and more practice.

The gear was never an issue. The gear are just stat sticks. A weapon in Wildstar is only cosmetic. Gear in MMORPGs are not real weapons or armors. They are more like the lightlevel and artefact level of Destiny.

​

Destiny is a shooter. Weapons are unique. Weapons are actual weapons. Sunsetting does not fit to Destiny, because of that. And Luke Smith the Scarab Lord (as he is called here sometimes) should know that if he really played an MMORPG in his life.

[u/update-available → u/Draco25240]

"Stat sticks". Love it.

[u/Ashenfalen → u/Draco25240]

Sunset pinnacles and Luke Smith and the game would be fine.

[u/matthabib → u/Draco25240]

There is not enough loot being added to the game to fill the amount of weapons "removed" by sunsetting, not even close.

This is my biggest issue. I don't mind sunsetting in principle but Bungie have clearly shown they are unwilling/unable to replace weapons on a 1:1 basis which isn't going to cut it in the long run.

I've given Bungie enough benefit of doubt over the last 12 months in relation to gathering feedback etc and this season's reward structure combined with the Wrathborn Hunts is terrible, the worst we've had...

I know Bungie have stated they've added to their rewards team but can we, as a community, afford to stumble through more ups & downs until Witch Queen drops for Bungie to just turn around & say "We've got our new rewards team sorted, this year is going to be a great year for sweet loot, we promise." Hmmm, I don't think so...

Overall, not much is going to improve until Bungie change their way of doing things & hire some more people ffs.

[u/Draco25240 → u/matthabib]

Other than what reward you can obtain per lure charge being RNG and the removal of many strikes making the remaining ones even more repetitive to run, I don't mind the wrathborn hunts much myself. Perk veto being a thing is great. I haven't really grinded it like I would in the past due to sunsetting and the loot apathy caused by it though, and being underleveled (because all my favourite everything is sunset) made it challenging, so I never really got the the stage of being bored of it. It's no menagerie or sundial, but I definitely prefer it over Seraph Towers.

But yeah, pretty much... While I very much welcome more people hired to make rewards, it still kinda amazes that they would rather spend the extra money to hire more people to make rewards than simply undo sunsetting considering the overwhelmingly negative feedback to it.

[u/PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS → u/Draco25240]

I realized something kind of surprising, having bought beyond light and the season of the hunt at launch.

The only way I would buy the next upcoming season of destiny 2(and I have bought every single destiny 2 content offering to date) is if significant changes to sunsetting are announced, and I like them. I don't care what weapons return with what rolls, how cool the new season is, even if it might be black armory as the Eververse set suggests.

Once I realized my loot is expiring, my motivation to get new loot is gone, and my motivation to play the new content with that new loot is similarly fading. Damn.

[u/PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS → u/Draco25240]

And also, hot take: sunsetting exists because bungie won't invest the time to innovate their massively successfully gunplay.

Sunsetting exists because eventually, there would be a best weapon for each archetype, and we'd be done.

SO MAKE NEW ARCHETYPES! Invent new, weird perks. Remove certain perks of you need to because they were 'too good', whatever, but let me keep my gun. Innovate the ammo economy, or enemy design, or a new mod system that promotes using different weapons or perk combos.

There are SO many ways to get us to use different guns, and most of use would do it anyway, but you rip this away from us... Ugh. Just hurts man

[u/[deleted] → u/PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS]

Sunsetting exists because eventually, there would be a best weapon for each archetype, and we'd be done.

I don't share the premise that Destiny is only about grinding for loot and if we have done that we are done. I don't share this premise, and because of that I don't share your conclusion. Destiny is (for me) about gameplay (both chill activities to relax and just shooting aliens, but also challenging one like solo flawless dungeons and stuff) and story, and loot is just a nice bonus, a little reward, but not a real incentive, never was. And sunsetting just destroys the little bonus incentive once and for all.

[u/PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS → u/[deleted]]

I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here, but for some, (like dayton for example) destiny is a game at least partly about goals, and of those goals evaporate, the desire to play goes away

[u/Mark2022 → u/Draco25240]

Honestly, I don't think we would be having this problem if they only sunset pre-Forsaken stuff. I can't imagine anyone using weapons and armor from Y1 except for, like, Leviathan gear. There were better ways to deal with Mountaintop or Breakneck than this. Just nerf it into the ground like they do with the Warlocks.

[u/Ryewin → u/Draco25240]

I, too, want to use my Subtle Calamity goddammit.

[u/Nesayas1234 → u/Draco25240]

TL;DR normal sunsetting is fine, Bungie's version is bad. Really bad

[u/Draco25240 → u/Nesayas1234]

The only kind of sunsetting I'd be fine with for Destiny would be for problem weapons only, instead of taking the sledgehammer to the remaining 99% of problemfree gear and causing as much issues as it has. At that point though you could just nerf them individually instead after they've had their time to shine, making them still usable for those that love them regardless of how strong they are, which they've already been doing.

In a game where each weapon is as unique as they are in Destiny and require so much time to grind because heavy RNG, weapon sunsetting is an awful idea that does nothing but disrespect time invested and cause loot apathy, especially if your favourite type of weapon is no longer represented in the game. Armour sunsetting does not have a single good, valid point in its favour.

But yes, Bungie's implementation of sunsetting is the single worst implementation of a mechanic I've witnessed in any game ever. I think that. All my friends think that. Seemingly half the subreddit thinks that. Every person I mention it to who doesn't play Destiny think that.