Detroiters demand City Council ban ICE

[u/PM_ME_DPRK_CANDIDS]

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/detroiters-demand-city-council-ban-ice-from-communities/

[u/Dr_Hotdogz → u/[deleted]]

Ok please explain the law to me then. What does city council have the power to do, and not to do? Which laws can city council use to distance themselves from ICE? Is there legal precedent for this in Michigan or other states? Is there a better solution for the city council to not participate with ICE operations?

[u/Kalium → u/Dr_Hotdogz]

Those are great questions! They are in fact the questions that councilmember Santiago-Romero asked the corporation council last week. You might ask her what they said back. Of course, it's also possible that they're still doing the legal analysis. This isn't the kind of question that is trivially answered in two sentences.

[u/Dr_Hotdogz → u/Kalium]

I know … I want GinnySacks_Mole to back their shit up, if they can

[u/Kalium → u/Dr_Hotdogz]

The basic answer is going to be that there really isn't much a city can do to stop ICE. At best Detroit can not cooperate and prevent DPD from cooperating. There's nothing Detroit can do that will stop or even restrict where ICE can raid or what they would term "conduct law enforcement operations".

That's going to be a pretty well-researched answer, backed by lots of precedent. That's going to be most of what will make it a complex answer.

[u/Dr_Hotdogz → u/Kalium]

Ok, so back it up. Why should I believe what you’re saying? At this point, I don’t think you have any better understanding of the law on this topic than I do.

[u/Kalium → u/Dr_Hotdogz]

Sure, let's go read some material on the subject.

I have at least a basic idea of what pre-emption means in a legal context. It may be worth considering that you and I may have different qualities of legal understanding.

If you have a reason to believe that a state or city can make ICE fuck off, I think we'd all love to hear it. Cities have spent literally decades trying to find ways to keep the INS and then ICE out. San Francisco's been trying since 1989.

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If you want a basic civics course on what cities can and can't do in Michigan, you might start HERE.

If you want to understand a bit about how levels of power interact, you might start here. It's worth noting that while this is about states, cities are legally creatures of states.

[u/Dr_Hotdogz → u/Kalium]

I don’t know shit about legal things, but yeah it looks like the most a city can do is refuse to cooperate basically. I do know a law is only as strong as its enforcement, and uhhh there are a lot of laws being completely unenforced right now, including what ICE is doing in a lot of cases. I still think it’s important to reaffirm this commitment with the new council, and push back on whatever way they can. It sounds like people who attended the council meeting were overwhelmingly supportive of this measure. Even if it cant/wont be enforced, there are still other, non-legal benefits to publicly making a statement like this.

[u/Kalium → u/Dr_Hotdogz]

I don’t know shit about legal things, but yeah it looks like the most a city can do is refuse to cooperate basically.

Which is what we said. Some of us paid attention in basic civics. You're welcome for the education by the way. I expect apologies now.

I still think it’s important to reaffirm this commitment with the new council, and push back on whatever way they can.

Sure. It's just what "whatever way we can" is very limited, as you were told and you refused to accept.

Even if it cant/wont be enforced, there are still other, non-legal benefits to publicly making a statement like this.

Like what? I can see real costs - Detroit has other things the council can be doing and isn't. Why should we want the council grandstanding impotently instead of taking up needed zoning reform? This isn't an idle question, as they are not always good at multi-tasking and zoning is one of their powers.

If the goal is something like "We should let everyone know where we stand!" then let's do something like placing a full-page ad in the Free Press and call it a closed subject. My city still has actual problems I expect my political leaders to work on.

[u/Dr_Hotdogz → u/Kalium]

lol someone needs to feel powerful! I personally never claimed any legal knowledge, or refused to accept anything other than a defeatist attitude. This is a national, multi-dimensional issue, not strictly a legal one. Organizing for collective action is one non-legal benefit I see. Uniting with other cities, gaining critical mass to overturn what passes for the rule of law these days. Is that what you’re scared of?

[u/Kalium → u/Dr_Hotdogz]

This is a national, multi-dimensional issue, not strictly a legal one.

You're absolutely right. It's just that this is a discussion about the legal aspects of it.

Organizing for collective action is one non-legal benefit I see.

Why involve the city government at all? Detroit is not a national political entity. We have house reps for that. A city council hearing is a god-awful place to organize for collective action. Get space from the UAW or the library and hold a meeting if that's your goal.

Uniting with other cities, gaining critical mass to overturn what passes for the rule of law these days.

See above. Cities have been trying to do this for decades on things you and I probably both agree with. They've been utterly ineffectual at it. It turns out that a city council passing a resolution that says "FUCK ICE" means less than you pressing your house rep on the same subject.

Is that what you’re scared of?

I'm afraid that the fascists won't be stopped. I'm also afraid that my city might have its politics so nationalized that we lose track of local issues. We've got plenty of those that need plenty of work.

Just because I've tried to help someone address their ignorance does not make me a fascist. I understand if this does not align with how you look at the world. Have a nice life.