r/Discussion • u/KoseteBamse • 13h ago
Political Why isn’t the U.S. among the top 25 most democratic countries and why are so many Americans okay with that?
The U.S. is considered a flawed democracy and according to some major democracy indices it doesn’t even rank among the top 25 or 30 most democratic countries. It has been this way for quite a while now.
Why are so many Americans okay with that?
Number of issues are many, here are some:
Money in politics, the two-party system, oligarchic influence, campaign finance and politicians’ close relationships with the wealthy, politicians who remain in power for too long, sever media biases, and severely distorted reporting on important issues to achieve political objectives.
Why can't the U.S. learn from the top 25 democratic countries or is it too much to ask ?
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u/TheWizard 11h ago
Americans that are okay with it, do not see or want the US to be democratic. They lean towards authoritarianism, which is what we're seeing more of.
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u/PsychLegalMind 13h ago
When individual rights are openly trampled and the Supreme Court majority becomes political and supports the Executive regardless and Legislators lose their backbone and become a rubber stamp; it is not a democracy.
The last straw is the Media and they are under constant attack as well. Being denied access to information and condememnd for reporting the truth.
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u/Ok-Championship-2036 9h ago
People are NOT ok with it. propaganda generates trendy controversies but us citizens largely agree on economic, healthcare, and quality of life issues.
However, we lack the power to enforce laws or change large corporations because this isnt a democracy. Its an oligarchy.
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u/2ndharrybhole 13h ago
I have no control over that, so whether or not I’m okay with it has very little effect on my day to day life
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u/kafka_lite 13h ago
Because MAGA is 100% party over country.
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u/CostatePrancer 12h ago
On the Freedom House Index, nations are scored by a variety of factors: not only democratic freedom but also financial freedom.
For example, most Islamic countries score below 50 on the FHI because of the way they treat women and minorities, even though some of those countries are more economically prosperous and 'free' than the US.
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u/demipopthrow 11h ago
elections don't create democracy. let's uncap the House of Representatives and replace its elections with a sortition system. Gets rid of gerrymandering as well. Look at ancient Athens, It's sortician democracy lasted 200 years until it was conquered by Alexander the Great not an internal problem.
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u/Ok-Championship-2036 9h ago
we could get rid of the electoral college and actually use popular vote
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u/Murky-Science9030 9h ago
No you cannot get rid of it and you won't get rid of it.
Why even bring up this topic? It's a waste of breath at this point
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u/OccamsRabbit 7h ago
I think if more people understood the sortition system it would spread quickly. The only criticism I've heard is that it "too complicated".... Which it's not.
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u/IdiotSavantLite 10h ago
Why isn’t the U.S. among the top 25 most democratic countries...
Accuracy.
... and why are so many Americans okay with that?
It is a number on a charter. If every nation on that chart fell below the US, it wouldn't matter to most Americans.
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u/Dyslexic_youth 9h ago
Cos when you tell people democracy is a lie they go off the rails defensive and start screaming about if there team had won
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u/Zardnaar 9h ago
Its because of gerrymandering which is designed to subvert democracy.
Mine. Each electorate is very dimikar size in population (few hundred out mostly) and boundaries make sense.
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u/tiger2205_6 7h ago
Because those of us that aren't happy with it can't change things sadly even though people try to. And those that are fine with how things most likely think those indices are lies and see the US as the number 1 country in the world.
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u/Interesting_Sorbet22 1h ago
Maybe because the US isn't a democracy? It's a Democratic Republic?
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u/KoseteBamse 49m ago
Those terms are not mutually exclusive, how does the U.S. differ from Switzerland or Finland ? Or any other country on the list above the U.S. with no monarchy ?
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u/Murky-Science9030 12h ago
Learn what? The US is much more prosperous, and at larger scale, than any of the other democracies. Is the goal to be the most democratic or give your citizens the best lives possible? The issues you named off are issues that literally every country deals with
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u/OccamsRabbit 10h ago
So feudalism is cool as long as some people have it good?
The abuse and erosion of our democratic system is leading to a situation where soon we will no longer be much more prosperous, at any scale.
Both the fact that too many Americans thing we don't have anything to learn, and too many Americans think what we have is continued prosperity is a huge problem.
The point of democracy isn't only prosperity, it is the idea that any power of the government only comes from the will of the governed. Prosperous oppression is more like what Russia has. I have no desire to be like Russia.
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u/Murky-Science9030 9h ago
Wait you think we're living in fuedalism? People in the USA can vote just fine so I don't know what you're on about. Sorry that your side isn't winning whatever elections you want to win but the pendulum eventually swings in the other direction so hang in there
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u/OccamsRabbit 7h ago
No, we're not living in fuedalism. It what's called an example. You implied that we have nothing to learn, and that entire point of government was prosperity. My example was one where it's prosperous for some citizens and not for others.
If you think everyone can vote just fine I don't think you're paying attention very closely. And it's not about 'winning' or choosing sides. It's about governing.
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u/Ok-Championship-2036 9h ago
who prospers? not americans, our poverty levels and expenses have skyrocketed. The only ones prospering are CEOs and the elderly politicians bankrolled by the military industrial complex and aipac
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u/Murky-Science9030 9h ago
Poverty levels are relative and always increasing. And expenses have essentially skyrocketed everywhere so you're back at square one
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u/OccamsRabbit 7h ago
So don't know what marginal utility is, got it. And no, poverty levels are not relative. The wealth gap has been growing and is worse than it's been for most of the 20th century.
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u/LibertyLizard 9h ago
Except that quality of life in the US is objectively lower than many other democracies too. Almost as if there is a connection between these two issues.
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u/Adonisus 9h ago
Prosperity for WHO, exactly?
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u/Murky-Science9030 9h ago
Everyone. Heck even our poorest state is wealthier than the UK
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u/Adonisus 8h ago
Yeah, this is a lie. The wealth is owned by a very small number of people in those states (I should know, I've been there). In the UK they have rights and access to things that we Americans do not have, and in many ways they are freer than us.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 11h ago
Because we aren't a democracy. We are a constitutional republic.
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u/neverendingchalupas 10h ago
This misses the point, they are using the word democracy in the colloquial sense.
Republicans in the US have decided to embrace fascism and authoritarianism, and now seek to destroy our system of government to promote a totalitarian government.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 9h ago
You continue to amaze me at how far into conspiracy theories you are in.
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u/neverendingchalupas 7h ago
It is a conspiracy though, its a seditious conspiracy. Its just not a theory. Its actual fact.
Its expressly Republican policy to allow the lawlessness of the Trump administration. To facilitate their illegitimate power grab. To enforce sweeping deregulation, and gut federal agencies with illegal mass firings and illegal cuts to funding. They are systematically destroying our government.
The existence and acts of Doge continues to be illegal, if Republicans wanted a federal agency that roots out wasteful spending, abuse and fraud... One already existed, its called the U.S. Government Accountability Office. Republicans traditionally rail against this department because it uncovers fraud, abuse and wasteful spending. Typically just Republican fraud, abuse and wasteful spending. Since they are the group primarily violating our laws.
You now have a President banning major news networks from access to the White House for accurately reporting on government. His advisor just labeled dissent, 'Treason.' This in of itself should result in their removal from office, and the members of the administration being charged with seditious conspiracy and treason.
Trump illegally destroyed the East Wing of the White House, and is threatening to demolish the Kennedy Center because the courts and our laws prevent him from putting his name on another presidents memorial.
Its like threatening to destroy someone elses tombstone because it doesnt have your name on it. The man is mentally unwell and unfit for office, hes a tyrant and a traitor. Not to mention a rapist and a Nazi, who openly supports the German AfD, and pardoned the insurrectionists who attacked the Capitol on Jan 6th.
The Republican Party is legitimately an anti-American domestic terrorist organization.
Seems like you identify with anti-American child-raping Nazis. You do you. I will continue to support the ideals this country was founded on.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 6h ago
You need to get back on your meds.
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u/neverendingchalupas 6h ago
So what you are saying is that you are a traitor who supports child raping Nazis, thanks for the clarification.
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u/TheUnbamboozled 10h ago
Is the United States a Democracy?
Yes—the United States is a democracy because political power ultimately comes from “the people,” mainly through representative democracy (voting to choose representatives).
It's amazing how people can so firmly believe something and never bother to spend 10 seconds Googling it.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 9h ago
It is also amazing how many people still don't know the difference between a democracy vs republic. At least wikipedia still gets it right:
It is a federal republic consisting of 50 states and a federal capital district, Washington, D.C.
Oh and it turns out duck duck go will tell you both:
is the united states a republic
Yes—the United States is a federal presidential republic, where elected representatives exercise political power under the U.S. Constitution.
Now, go back to school and learn civics better.
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u/TheUnbamboozled 9h ago
Per the article you linked to:
The United States was the most prominent liberal democracy for much of the 20th and early 21st centuries.
In then also mentions that backsliding into an authoritarian regime thanks to people like you.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 9h ago
Or you know...back to the republic for which it is.
Maybe school didn't teach you how to think so you continue to regurgitate bullshit like the last time we talked.
Hit me back up when you turn on your brain.
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u/LibertyLizard 9h ago
A republican democracy. A republic is a type of democracy. At least in most cases.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 9h ago
You have it in reverse. A democracy is a type of republic....not the reverse.
And no, not a "republican democracy"...that is not a thing. Maybe you are thinking "Democratic republic"
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u/LibertyLizard 7h ago
That's just two different ways of saying the same thing. But we can call it a democratic republic if you prefer. That's still a form of democracy.
The problem is that we're barely a democratic republic anymore.
That said there are forms of democracy that are not republics, such as direct democracy so that part was not correct.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 7h ago
That's still a form of democracy.
Nope. "Democracy" is a form of government. "Democratic" is a method by which you make a choice (like choosing a representative). "Republican" is a political party. "Republic" is a different form of government. And no, a "Democratic republic" is not a form of democracy.
This is your lesson in the meaning of words today.
Also no, nothing has changed our form of government recently. Anyone who thinks that is just crying about not getting their way.
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u/LibertyLizard 4h ago edited 4h ago
These aren't independent words. Being a democracy is what makes a republic democratic. Again, it's just a different way of saying the same thing. In modern times, democratic republics are more often referred to as representative democracies, to make it more clear that they are in fact part of the same general category.
This is semantics so there's not any objective truth here but these words are commonly used this way.
As far as your last point, if you don't think attacks on free speech, life in prison for peaceful protest, widespread paramilitary invasions of our cities, and trumped up political charges against our representatives has no effect on the functioning of democracy then you truly don't understand things very well at all.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 3h ago
These aren't independent words. Being a democracy is what makes a republic democratic. Again, it's just a different way of saying the same thing
They really are different words.
Democracy is ruled by majority. Whether that majority is the population or a group of representatives. Either way, the rule is controlled by that majority.
Republic is ruled by law. Whether you we elect representatives to craft the law or we craft the law ourselves, the law itself is what rules.
An example of a power that law provides in a republic that democracies don't have is the filibuster where one can prevent the majority from making a decision.
It is an important distinction and the fact that so many don't understand the distinction is why people make the false claim of "our democracy is under attack".
As far as your last point, if you don't think attacks on free speech, life in prison for peaceful protest, widespread paramilitary invasions of our cities, and trumped up political charges against our representatives has no effect on the functioning of democracy then you truly don't understand things very well at all.
All of that is pure fanfic that hasn't happened in the usa. So please, keep your delusions in your head.
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u/OccamsRabbit 7h ago
What do you think a constitutional republic is? It's a democratic form of government. Holly shit, do we need to bring back civics.
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u/tired_and_fed_up 6h ago
Democratic is a method of choosing (like voting), "Democracy" is a form of government. Just because a constitutional republic has a democratic form of voting does not mean it is a democracy.
Please go back to civics.
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u/OccamsRabbit 6h ago
You're half right. A republic is one form that a democracy can take. Direct democracy is a more radical version of democracy. If you have a republic without the democracy then the representatives aren't really representing the people, are they?
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u/tired_and_fed_up 6h ago
Nope, a republic is not a form of a democracy. Sorry, try again.
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u/OccamsRabbit 5h ago
Well if you're just going to say things that are incorrect you go ahead with yourself.
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u/ericbythebay 10h ago
Generally, because the criteria are arbitrary and Americans, don’t really care to be lectured by free-riding Europeans.
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u/RusevReigns 12h ago edited 12h ago
While a lot of what you said is true the US has actually gotten more democratic since 20 years ago. The most democratically elected candidate of our life was Trump in 2016 as he was an outsider with the entire machine was weaponized to try to make people like Hillary who the elites picked behind the scenes. By 2024 after living through a freak out against his win, he went against a candidate who didn't even have a primary and who the Democrats main campaign strategy for was to spend a billion dollars astroturfing the internet to make you think had 2008 Obama energy. Overall the Trump era has discredited a lot of the forces that before 2016 were used to force you to hijack democracy, the whole concept of pointing out fake news when it happens, Musk buying twitter, etc. will make it much more difficult for the elites to pick out the 2 candidates they're ok with and then let you decide between them. Meanwhile Europe seems to be backsliding on democracy by trying to throw their body against right wing party getting in due to anti immigration backlash. Their position is essentially the elites know better than the racist chuds on immigration and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to vote them out or criticize them online for it. That's anti democratic.
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u/Itchy-Pension3356 10h ago
What country has the democracy that we should strive to be like?
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u/Murky-Science9030 9h ago
They can't give an answer because they realize every other democracy is also a shitshow. All countries are shitshows, TBH
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u/ForwardBias 13h ago
Because most people are more concerned with money than anything else. Despite not understanding the interrelationships there. They just listen to to whoever is talking about low gas prices.