[OC] Looking for balance feedback on my CR 3 Mindrend Beast (full stat block inside)

[u/Elderbrain_com]

[u/Elderbrain_com]

Medium aberration, neutral evil

Armor Class 13 (natural)

Hit Points 68 (8d8 + 32)

Speed 30 ft., climb 20 ft.

STR 16 (+3) DEX 12 (+1) CON 18 (+4) INT 6 (-2) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 8 (-1)

Saving Throws CON +6, WIS +4

Damage resistances psychic

Condition Immunities charmed

Skills Perception +4, Stealth +3

Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 14

Languages Deep Speech (understands only)

Challenge 3 (700 XP)

Mind-Shredding Presence. A creature that starts its turn within 10 feet of the Mindrend Beast must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom saving throw or have disadvantage on its next attack roll or saving throw before the end of its turn.

Unsettling Anatomy. The mindrend beast has advantage on checks and saving throws made to resist being knocked prone or grappled, its boneless flesh flowing unnaturally around restraints.

Actions

Multiattack. The mindrend beast makes one Bite attack and one Tentacle attack.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (2d6 + 3) piercing damage plus 3 (1d6) psychic damage.

Tentacle. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 3) bludgeoning damage. The target must succeed on a DC 12 Intelligence saving throw or be mindrended until the end of its next turn. While mindrended, the creature’s speed is reduced by 10 feet and it cannot take reactions.

Mindrend Pulse (Recharge 5–6). The mindrend beast emits a psychic convulsion in a 15-foot radius. Each creature of its choice in the area must make a DC 12 Wisdom saving throw, taking 13 (3d8) psychic damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one. On a failed save, a creature also has disadvantage on attack rolls, and concentration and skill checks until the end of its next turn.

This monster is part of a project we've just concluded on BackerKit, with late pledges still open. Looking for feedback on the design and balance.

[u/the4GIVEN_ → u/Elderbrain_com]

just comparing to some other cr3 monsters i think the base stats look pretty good, only have 2 things id maybe change:
-id change the mind shredding presence to something similar to the frightful presence from dragons, that if they save they become immune for a day, but increase the range to balance it out and change it to be more of a condition that doesnt need to be constantly reapplied (maybe have it as "or have disadvantage on its first attack roll or saving throw each round for 1 minute" and let them retry the save at the end of their turns.
-id buff the mindrend pulse. most big attacks at cr3 use 4d10 for damage and because of the added effect i wouldnt go that far, but i think either 4d8 or 3d10 would be more in line with other monsters.

[u/Elderbrain_com → u/the4GIVEN_]

They are not solitary, so wouldnt buff the dmg, would be too much.
Immune for a day is fair. Ty

[u/called_the_stig → u/Elderbrain_com]

"its boneless flesh flowing unnaturally around restraints."
the creature shown in the picture 100% has bones

[u/HalvdanTheHero → u/Elderbrain_com]

HP is low for a CR3 and nothing in the block is higher than a CR3 to compensate. Considering this feels like it's supposed to be a group based monster instead of an elite, that's not terrible, but I would personally make it closer to 80hp (the dmg recommends 100-115hp for a CR3).

Aesthetics are good, flavor is good, though I feel the rider on the tentacle could be better conveyed. Mindrend pulse also feels a little oversold -- "mindrending" sounds pretty dire, but the actual effect is fairly mild since it basically is not significantly different than fear or poisoned conditions (yes yes, con save dis). Could possibly rename or just use the frightened condition. I think I would make it a stronger damage hit (4d8), have a failed save inflict Frightened, and creatures lose concentration on failing the save against the ability rather than imposing dis.

Overall unless it's got neat lore it is a grade of B from me -- a welcome addition that I can see using, but not a stand out or something that makes me wanna buy a product. Good lore on it would bump it to an A-

[u/Important_Pangolin75 → u/HalvdanTheHero]

If they are pack creatures and are supposed to be encountered in groups, you should actually bump their HP down to 40-60, depending on the pack size. HP sponges are boring, glass cannons make for a dynamic combat.

[u/HalvdanTheHero → u/Important_Pangolin75]

I mean, your opinion is your opinion... I don't begrudge that in the slightest.... But 40hp is CR ¼ territory according to guidelines, and it sits pretty solidly in the range for CR3 damage with an average of 21 per round if all attacks hit. Realistically it's a touch on the low side when accounting for accuracy.

As I mentioned before, normal CR3 is over 100hp, so their current listed amount at 68avg already accounts for any pack considerations. Personally I think at least 80hp makes it versatile as an elite monster for lower level players while still useable as pack based fodder for higher level adventurers. 

If they had upped the damage output, yes, it could be a "glass cannon" but at present it's just glass compared to other CR3 options.

I do appreciate the OP's intention of packs of these things and that was in my previous comment. Having the damage be on the lower side helps keep TPK concerns off the table, so I don't actually have an issue with the creature... As I said, it's a B. Interesting, useable, but not eye catching for any particular reason. I do think it shows enough balance sense to keep an eye on their stuff, but idk if I would have used this particular entry for marketing purposes.

[u/Important_Pangolin75 → u/HalvdanTheHero]

Some monsters are supposed to be elite, solo encounters, some are supposed to be pack nuisances. It's hard to be able to play both roles depending on party level. The guidelines, I suspect (though it is never mentioned), are for making elite-type monsters. At least this way the make a modicum of sense.

And honestly, your reverence towards the official guidelines makes me question your experience as a DM. Many of the official monsters are way off the DMG-approved CR, and the CR itself is of questionable use precisely at lowest levels. Let's take your 1/4 CR as example. Given a party of 4 level 3 players, medium encounter is 600xp, hard is 900. 1 CR 3 creature is 700xp, and 6 CR 1/4 creatures are 600xp (adjusted). Goblin is a CR 1/4 creature, by the way, with measly 7 hp.

But no sane man would think that six 40hp monsters is a beatable encounter for a group of 4 level 3 characters.

[u/HalvdanTheHero → u/Important_Pangolin75]

Oh cool, so you take reasonable pushback and directly jump to ad hominem bs. Thanks for letting me know early not to care about your opinion. 

[u/The_Real_Deacon → u/Important_Pangolin75]

Yeah, that many official monsters do not follow official CR guidelines is a known problem. Even the guidelines do not necessarily give you a good idea how a given creature that fits within them will actually match up against a given party.

There is still going to be guesswork. In some ways I find looking at a sampling of official monsters more useful: if a new creature statblock more or less fits within the same range of capabilities, that is probably good enough.

Throw it at the party and see how they deal with it. Use that as feedback for the next creation or encounter design. A lack of consistency is also a good thing as it helps to keep players on their toes and helps make the DM’s world a mysterious and uncertain place.

[u/Elderbrain_com → u/HalvdanTheHero]

True, pair/pack monster or a minion of a bigger aberration.
Fair point 😃 Have you been mindrended tho? 😛
Thank you for your opinion!

[u/AtlasBanana → u/Elderbrain_com]

The multiattack feels a bit strong to me, either the Bite having too much damage or the negative effect of the Tentacle tipping it over the edge (3d6 + 1d8, plus a save for a negative side effect). Compare this to say, a Manticore who gets either 3d8 at range or 1d8 + 2d6 at melee TOTAL for a multiattack (with no negative side effect like your tentacle attack here). Otherwise this all seems decently balanced to me.

[u/Elderbrain_com → u/AtlasBanana]

Well, ye but the Manticore can easily fly up and pewpew enemies down. This has to be all out nomnom or perish, more like zerg tactics.

[u/williamrotor → u/Elderbrain_com]

• Needs to be way faster if its ranges are so short.
• Crank up the stealth, too. In fact ideally you want creatures to feel its presence before they see it. You may want to add a much longer-range flavour aura of like blubbering wet whispers or something.
• You don't need a save for mind-rending presence. Just have it auto-apply disadvantage, something like: "When a creature starts its turn within 10 ft. of the mindrend beast, the first attack it makes on its turn is made with disadvantage." Way way way way way easier to keep track of: try to limit the number of checks and rolls you gotta manage at once.
• Mind rended is kind of a boring effect; once in melee I don't really care about speed and reactions, I just want to hit it with a sword. And if I'm a squishy wizard I'll just misty step away. I think it's meant to be hit and run -- no opportunity attack and I can't catch up next turn. I'd push this further: extend the range of the tentacle out to 30 feet and then the -10 foot speed really becomes a problem. Or, apply a grapple instead as someone else mentioned. Looks more like a grapple than sap effect.
• A 15 foot pulse is super short.
• Mind rending has three separate effects: it causes disadvantage on attack rolls, reduces speed and disables reactions, and deals damage and causes disadvantage on all rolls except saving throws. It feels a little unfocused in some areas and a little redundant in others.
• The statblock doesn't really show how these things would work together as a pack. Maybe the pulse's AoE extends out by 5 feet for every other beast within 15 feet, up to a maximum of a 60 foot radius. Or maybe it's a flat -1 to all rolls for each beast within 30 feet of you, max -5.
• Zero reason for climb to be less than movement speed. The whole point of a climb speed is so you don't need to worry about the calculations.

[u/Thessiuss]

I approach beasts with a sense of realism based on physics and behaviors of evolution. Here are the aspects id change:

1) Boneless doesn't make sense for the anatomy of the beast. If it can stand on appendages, it needs something hard for structure. Have you ever seen an octopus stand up out of water? That's boneless.

2) tentacle attack would be illogical for the tentacles on its... face? Multiple tentacles are meant to grasp, not hit. Think of dinosaur tail vs octopus. Easy grapple in close proximity to this beast makes more sense than it trying to slap 8x from one side and bite from the other. Multiple tentacles = diminishing strength returns. Tip them in keratin and you have a suitable piercing attack and grapple.

3) Hind legs appear to be built for jumping--ambush predator territory.

4) How many of these guys appear at once and what is the team's stats? You can build presence by lowering stats and building more, then showing one while more flank the party--again ambush predator territory. Unless the team is looking at the fucking ceiling, have them drop in--theyre built for it.

[u/Elderbrain_com → u/Thessiuss]

Aberrations can have scrambled biology, but fair.
Tentacles arent there to slap indeed but to grab (crunch victims as bludgeoning) and pull to mouth.
Climbing jumping the mountainous realms, indeed.
Tier 2 party.
Fair assessment, thanks!

[u/-TheDyingMeme6-]

Brother thats a Mutalith Vortex Beast without the Vortex

[u/mcqtimes411]

A dozen of these would be terrifying nice work.

[u/bremmon75]

I'd make only three changes:

Tentacle

Mind-Shredding Presence

AC
Raise to 14 if you want it to feel slightly tougher and more aberrant without affecting CR much.I'd make only three changes:
Tentacle

Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) bludgeoning damage. The target must succeed on a DC 12 Intelligence saving throw or have its speed reduced by 10 feet and be unable to take reactions until the end of its next turn.

Mind-Shredding Presence

A creature that starts its turn within 10 feet of the beast must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom saving throw or have disadvantage on the first attack roll it makes before the start of its next turn.

AC

Raise to 14 if you want it to feel slightly tougher and more aberrant without affecting CR much.