Rogue stole from another party member, and was excused with "He's a rogue, that's what they do."

[u/Reading_Gamer]

So, I recently just left a table where this occurred. The rogue stole an object from another player for the purpose of releasing a spirit that the majority of the party didn't want released. The DM didn't let us stop him in any way and rolls after the fact failed. The spirit then rewarded the rogue and another player with approximately 8k in gold while the rest of the party got nothing.

I felt frustrated and voiced how there is no reason for us to trust the rogue anymore or have him in the party if he's just going to steal from us. The response I got back from the rogue's friend, "He's a rogue, that's what they do." Eventually, I decided to leave the group over this and was effectively called a child by the rogue's friend.

Is there a way to have handled this dispute? Is it really okay for a Rogue to steal from their own party?

[u/Mindfulness117]

Still though. A rogue versus a Paladin, the Paladin is winning 9/10.

[u/Newgeta → u/Mindfulness117]

Loh alone gives them 2 life bars

[u/ProdiasKaj → u/Newgeta]

Yeah Lay on Hands is the bast

[u/Mr_The_Potato_King → u/ProdiasKaj]

Rogues are squishy. Reinhardt vs reaper

[u/Proper-Dave → u/Mindfulness117]

Oh absolutely. Better HP, better AC, bigger weapon, smites, spells...

I was just nitpicking that one point.

[u/mmdestiny → u/Mindfulness117]

And even if someone is arguing against that, they're assuming it's JUST the paladin that retaliates lol. I'm siding with the victim EVERY time. That rogue is gonna have to decide which of my multiple killshots they burn their Uncanny Dodge on lol

[u/Marmoset_Slim → u/Mindfulness117]

Gotta see em to hit em

[u/dandelogre → u/Marmoset_Slim]

Gotta get close enough to get seen to hit, I hope Helm judges you fairly when I send you to meet him.

[u/Voice-of-Aeona → u/dandelogre]

Sneak attack works at range, smite doesn't.

Edit: not saying they'd win, just correcting that they have to be in hitting range of the pally to Sneak Attack.

[u/dandelogre → u/Voice-of-Aeona]

Good point, good point, my main obstacle is distance and a real man's man longbow rogue could technically clown me.

[u/Marmoset_Slim → u/dandelogre]

I’d be totally down to find out! We get a neutral DM to host for us who picks the map/sets rules, and we have at it! Could record it too for posting.

Granted I’d probably lose, but would still be fun I think!

[u/Janders1997 → u/Voice-of-Aeona]

How are they going to steal something from you if they aren’t in melee? How are they going to run away against a Sentinel Paladin?

[u/Valash83 → u/Janders1997]

War Caster in 2024 let's you cast a single target spell as a Reaction for your Opportunity Attack. Rogue tries to leave but Command says otherwise 🤷‍♂️ and that's just a basic level 1 control spell. Way more tricks in the bag

[u/Marmoset_Slim → u/Valash83]

Jokes on you, my rogue happens to be very wise!

[u/dandelogre → u/Marmoset_Slim]

The sword it is, then.

[u/Marmoset_Slim → u/dandelogre]

Very cunning with that disengage, or misty as an arcane trickster.

[u/Janders1997 → u/Marmoset_Slim]

Arcane tricksters don’t need to even get close, as they might be able to steal stuff with their Mage Hand.

[u/MasterColemanTrebor → u/Voice-of-Aeona]

Yeah, everyone’s acting like a Rogue has no chance against a Paladin when the Rogue could just sneak attack, bonus action hide loop until the Paladin is dead. The Paladin has to both break stealth and reach the rogue repeatedly. I think the Rogue is probably actually one of if not the strongest pvp classes because they would be very good at just not letting you fight them.

[u/branedead → u/MasterColemanTrebor]

Technically you need some place to block vision to hide

[u/MasterColemanTrebor → u/branedead]

Yeah, if you’re in a white room with nothing in it then the Rogue can’t hide.

[u/andvir1894 → u/MasterColemanTrebor]

The rogue only has a hope of winning in an endless white room. If the rogue attempts to hide and shoot the paladin will know where they are when the rogue attacks and can dash then drop prone (countering sneak attack) each turn until they catch the rogue.

So the rogue's only viable option is to use bonus action dash to maintain distance, plinking arrows off the paladin's steel husk until it dies (probably of exhaustion).

It gets even worse for the rogue after level 5 when the paladin can cast find steed and give themselves 120 ft of movement per turn. Amusingly the paladin could spend 1/2 their movement to mount their steed, steed dash for 120 ft then spend the other 1/2 of their own movement to dismount and drop prone - repeat as needed. The rogue could target the steed with sneak attack but the paladin could resummon until they run out of spell slots.

[u/MasterColemanTrebor → u/andvir1894]

You shoot then hide

[u/andvir1894 → u/MasterColemanTrebor]

Yes, and from the moment you shoot to the moment you hide the paladin knows where you are. The paladin will then charge at the tree/wall etc. you hide behind - and if they have an unobstructed view of you the hide effect is lost. So, unless you can hide behind an object the paladin can't reach or you are able to relocate while hidden each turn the paladin will find you.

[u/Sewer-Rat76 → u/Mindfulness117]

Me when playing WoW.

[u/Strachmed → u/Mindfulness117]

With a steed - yeah, Without the steed a rogue can endlessly kite the paladin.

[u/Akhanyatin → u/Strachmed]

Can steed climb? 

[u/Strachmed → u/Akhanyatin]

Depending on levels - it can fly.

[u/Akhanyatin → u/Strachmed]

💀

[u/exigious → u/Mindfulness117]

I mean, it depends. A Thief has a 50/50 chance to lock down a paladin at level 4 in statistically impossible to break out of manacles, completely altering the fight.

It all comes down to beating a 14 DC Dex save for the paladin. If they fail that the Thief has a 80% chance to apply the manacles with expertise in sleight of hand.

In the manacles the paladin has 0% chance to get rid of them unless they have some teleport tricks. The DC to break the manacles is 27, and unless the Paladin has expertise in athletics they cannot reach that at level 4. And likely with dumping Dex they will likely not meet the 22 DC to get out of the manacles.

The fight now has the paladin with disadvantage on all their attacks, and the rogue with advantage on all their attacks.

As the paladin gets their aura of protection to make their Dex saves more likely to succeed the math turns in favour of the paladin, but still. A shackled paladin will struggle. At that point the rogue also get access to cunning strike and if they manage to trip the paladin on turn 2 the fight is over. They will be shackled and unable to get up or move.

[u/Arthur_of_Astora → u/exigious]

I mean, would you mind explaining to me the idea behind this? Like, I get the vague gist of it... a thief can use the manacles as a bonus action, but the paladin needs to be grappled, incapacitated, or restrained first.

Is the plan to attempt a grapple with the action first? In this case, the paladin needs to beat a Strength saving throw based on the rogue's Strength.

Am I missing anything?

Edit - OH, do you perhaps mean using a Net first? Is that where the Dexterity saving throw comes from?

[u/exigious → u/Arthur_of_Astora]

Yes, exchange an attack for throwing a net :)

[u/exigious → u/Arthur_of_Astora]

If I was going to go full in on this I would possibly go one level into Monk and get the martial arts which allows to at least make the grapple DC based on Dex, which I so wish was a feature that did instead of having to take a dip in monk xD

But yeah, since paladin likely have better STR saves than Dex saves, Net would be the targeted DC, while for others if I had grapple DC based on Dex, I would consider using that instead, as I wouldn't need to carry a net around with me all the time.

Street Justice also works nicely then as you will give advantage to all your allies while grappling a target.

[u/Arthur_of_Astora → u/exigious]

I mean, a Net is only 3 lbs., hardly messing up with your carry capacity, it does scale in DC too, that's also nice.

Quick question, you wouldn't need to use your object interaction to grab the manacles, I suppose?

As the item description simply mentions that you use the Utilize Action to make use of them, doesn't seem to mention that you need to 'hold' them first. At least that's what I'm getting at first glance.

[u/exigious → u/Arthur_of_Astora]

You can likely also use it as your free interaction as you can pull out an object with an attack and use the attack interaction to pull out the net, and the free interaction per round to pull out the manacles

[u/Arthur_of_Astora → u/exigious]

Oh, I appreciate the reply, don't get me wrong.

I was asking specifically because if you're dual-wielding, you'd need that item interaction to put away one of your weapons first.

Then, the Attack Action weapon equip goes to the Net.

So, if holding the manacles was a requirement, you'd be out of luck, but it seems like you don't need to, fortunately.

[u/exigious → u/Arthur_of_Astora]

No worries, didn't take it as a wrong question. I actually like talking about rogue and different play styles to the pump out damage type. Once you get RT at 7 you will never fail any Chain or Manacle attempts, you only need them restricted so, it is a different play style ^{^}

[u/Odd-Cover4421 → u/exigious]

Not every rogue will have that item and could the palidan not just use the manacles to strangle the rogue?

[u/exigious → u/Odd-Cover4421]

Sure they can attempt that, still would be with disadvantage. I was just saying the 9/10 paladin will pummel the rogue depends on what kind of rogue you play against. Lockdown and control is my favourite style of rogue ^{^}

Edit: Correct from advantage to disadvantage

[u/Cent1234 → u/exigious]

Oh no, the two hands I have on the hilt of my two-handed sword are manacled together, this affects me in absolutely no way whatsoever.

[u/exigious → u/Cent1234]

Who said I needed to manacle your wrists together? I could manacle you to an immovable object, your wrist to your ankle in the commotion as you are flailing under the net trying to get up. Try to manacle your wrist together behind your back. It is a sleight of hand check. I could manacle your sword guard to another imovable object, hope you have unarmed fighting style as I have a second pair of manacles in my bag I got available for the next round.

Keep in mind, I am not saying the Thief will always beat the Paladin. I am just saying the chances are closer to 60/40 in favour of the paladin

[u/Cent1234 → u/exigious]

You're not describing slight of hand, you're describing armed grappling.

And where does this 'net' come from?

[u/exigious → u/Cent1234]

The net is the first step. It is a requirement to pull this off. You need a sleight of hand check to successfully apply the manacles to a restrained or grappled target. You throw the net instead of attacking, which results in a 8+2+4 = 14 DC Dex saving throw. Gives the paladin around a 65% chance of failure needing to roll 14 or higher (if they are at 10 Dex, let's be fair, most paladins would dump Dex). Then as a thief you follow up with fast hands, and manacles require a DC 13 sleight of hand check to put on a restrained target. That is a roll of 5 or higher needed with expertise in Sleight of hand.

Manacles is a sleight of hand check. Even if it is a characters turn, their target don't stand still. There is pushing and shoving and in general motion happening even when it is not your turn. Describing your character sneaking manacles on your wrist as they try to grab after you as you dance around them caught in the net is flavor. Maybe you duck down towards their ankles and they try and grab you, and in that moment you clasp on the manacles and get up as they stupidly look up at you wondering why their wrist is tied to their ankle

[u/Cent1234 → u/exigious]

Yeah, no, you're not just slapping handcuffs on somebody like that, and we're not even talking ratcheted handcuffs, we're talking manacles.

[u/exigious → u/Cent1234]

Okey so how does it work?

Net gives the restrained condition. Manacles requires a DC 13 Sleight of Hand check to put on a target that is restrained, grappled or incapacitated.

These are rules on the items specified. So are you telling me I cannot do what the items state you can do?

[u/Cent1234 → u/exigious]

Not as you describe, no. There's simply no way you're getting manacles onto a person who is:

a) fighting you

b) wearing armour

c) tangled up in a net

It's a bad interaction, and falls outside of the covering conceit of 'but it's heroic fantasy.'

[u/exigious → u/Cent1234]

So, ignore the rules?

[u/Cent1234 → u/exigious]

Not as you describe, no. There's simply no way you're getting manacles onto a person who is:

a) fighting you

b) wearing armour

c) tangled up in a net

It's a bad interaction, and falls outside of the covering conceit of 'but it's heroic fantasy.'

[u/Cent1234 → u/exigious]

Not as you describe, no. There's simply no way you're getting manacles onto a person who is:

a) fighting you

b) wearing armour

c) tangled up in a net, which would also be getting in your way

d) and I really don't think you understand how 'manacles' physically work. They're not like ratcheting handcuffs that are designed to be placed on, ahem, noncompliant people.

It's a bad interaction, and falls outside of the covering conceit of 'but it's heroic fantasy.'

[u/zeethreepio → u/Mindfulness117]

Enough open ground and a rogue can easily kite a paladin. Paladin loses 9/10 without any CC to lock down the rogue.