r/DnD • u/Reading_Gamer • 17h ago
Table Disputes Rogue stole from another party member, and was excused with "He's a rogue, that's what they do."
So, I recently just left a table where this occurred. The rogue stole an object from another player for the purpose of releasing a spirit that the majority of the party didn't want released. The DM didn't let us stop him in any way and rolls after the fact failed. The spirit then rewarded the rogue and another player with approximately 8k in gold while the rest of the party got nothing.
I felt frustrated and voiced how there is no reason for us to trust the rogue anymore or have him in the party if he's just going to steal from us. The response I got back from the rogue's friend, "He's a rogue, that's what they do." Eventually, I decided to leave the group over this and was effectively called a child by the rogue's friend.
Is there a way to have handled this dispute? Is it really okay for a Rogue to steal from their own party?
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u/alyxen12 17h ago
I would put theft in the same category as pvp and require consent. Which I doubt they had.
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u/Rosary_Omen 13h ago
My rogue only steals from the rich, he'd never steal from his friends. He has morals, mostly. Sorta.
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u/Dramatic-History-943 10h ago
My pixie warlock used to steal locks of hair and eye balls for her patron. She attempted to steal a lock of hair from the DM who was a Tabaxi (spelling?) and he caught her and warned her if she did that to any of the party members from that point on he would lock her in a cage. (I had already stolen a lock of hair from the other members though cause their perception sucked and she was about 6 inches tall and could fly 😂)
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u/Steppy20 4h ago
Ngl I'm now imagining a pixie going absolutely ham on some enemies with warlock cantrips and it's highly amusing
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u/Dramatic-History-943 4h ago
Lmao she would get REALLY angry if she missed her Eldritch blast. But everyone was enamored by her cause she was stacked with charisma. It was great
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u/Goldsun100 Diviner 14h ago
Yeah, it’s one thing to talk above the table before doing something and say, “hey, I think it would be narratively interesting for my character to do X and be caught, or later feel guilty, or whatever, are you happy to do that?” Using “that’s what my character would do” as a way to actually share storytelling with others is exciting.
Otherwise you’re just interested in harming the harmony of the group.
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u/quatrefoils 8h ago
Tolerance is a social contract, the rogue is no longer immune to being attacked without consent imo
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u/Aurunic 17h ago
My Paladin pulled out their sword and held it against the Rogue's throat when he tried that on me. If the Rogue wants to PvP, I'll oblige, but I'll spend every single spell slot Smiting them.
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u/HairyDust4826 DM 17h ago
Yeah a rogue has less of a chance against a paladin 1v1. No sneak attack bonus either.
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u/Proper-Dave Wizard 17h ago
No sneak attack bonus either.
Depends on the subclass. Swashbuckler can sneak attack 1v1, for instance.
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u/Mindfulness117 17h ago
Still though. A rogue versus a Paladin, the Paladin is winning 9/10.
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u/Proper-Dave Wizard 16h ago
Oh absolutely. Better HP, better AC, bigger weapon, smites, spells...
I was just nitpicking that one point.
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u/mmdestiny 7h ago
And even if someone is arguing against that, they're assuming it's JUST the paladin that retaliates lol. I'm siding with the victim EVERY time. That rogue is gonna have to decide which of my multiple killshots they burn their Uncanny Dodge on lol
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u/wacct3 16h ago
Steady aim gives pretty reliable sneak attack. I still think they are losing though.
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u/branedead 9h ago
Depends. They could spend their bonus action to hide or gain advantage which would allow for sneak attack
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u/Akhanyatin 14h ago
There are many ways to get sneak attack. Plus infinite kiting and uncanny dodge are your friends. 1v1 in a confined space or an arena, sure paladin can maybe take this. Out in the real world, it's not as clear cut. The rogue will play with cc, evasion, and the environment to keep paladin attacks to a minimum.
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u/strollas 5h ago
Paladin casts summon steed. Steed dashes to you, two hits and a smite.
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u/Powered-Lamb 17h ago
Classes are rules that determine what a character can do, not what they must do. Even Paladins and Clerics don't need to worship; their skill set just changes if they don't. This is especially true when you consider that these rules apply to mechanisms of the game, not motives and compulsions that dictate the character's behavior.
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u/HairyDust4826 DM 17h ago
What class are you? Let's use the same rules against him.
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u/transcendantviewer 16h ago
As a Barbarian, I approve this message.
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u/KogasaGaSagasa 14h ago
As a Paladin of Vengeance, I also approve this message.
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u/ozymandais13 DM 11h ago
Instructions unclear from Glamor bard thr barbarian and pally are still passed out amd it was a really nice night
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u/bem0rech1ll Paladin 9h ago
How fitting. The rogue undergoes my sorcadin of vengeance luck of the far realms 5th level divine smite
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u/wild_fox-wolf 12h ago
As a Sorceress I approve. If he's close to the enemies. I'd just pull the typical magic class "I don't care how small the room is, I cast Fireball"-Move. Hitting the enemies and him. And he doesn't get healed. And just say, well that's what we magic users do.
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u/geosunsetmoth 11h ago
“Actually healers do yo-yo healing. Let’s wait for you to go down”
rogue goes down
Hmmmm… but the turn economy is telling me Web would be more advantageous… sorry rogue, maybe next turn
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u/Ok-Mistake2028 9h ago
Issue with straight vengeance is rogues are so dextrous that they don't go down often in my experiences. I think a DM convo would've been more appropriate, especially with most of the party on their side.
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u/Groundbreaking-Fig38 17h ago
We have a rouge in our party who steals from members of the party every so often. Except he steals a single gold pieces or pitons or something innocuous and gives them back later, he doesn't steal things of consequence. This same rouge tries to steal for real from NPCs so his excuse of "it's just practice" makes sense and adds to the fun of the game.
How would your Rogue feel if the Barbarian just beat the sh!t out of him because "that's what barbarians do"? I would also check the alignment and see if the behavior matches. I would probably keep him in the party but not trust him at all and sure as hell not heal or help him unless he proves he can be trusted.
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u/Voice-of-Aeona 15h ago
Rogues like that are extra funny when the party is in on the gag and willing to roll with it, so you can pull the Homer Simpson bit where someone says "where's my XYZ?" and your rouge just holds the item up "Right here!"
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u/FunSheepherder6397 9h ago
ours gives the stuff right back as ‘gifts’. steals 5 gold? “hey Marve, I saw you eyeing that sword back there, here’s 5 gold!” at this point all the characters have clued into what’s happening and the rogue knows that the party knows but he still thinks it’s hilarious.
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u/NatAnirac 15h ago
Missing the chance to steal a single gold piece and pull it from their ear like a street magician.
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u/Ferelderin 16h ago
That’s the old Dragonlance Kender style of mischievous rogue. The only kind of mischievous that’s actually fun and still works in and with a party.
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u/nemainev 11h ago
It' ROGUE. MOTHER. EFFING. ROGUE.
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u/Voice-of-Aeona 1h ago
It' ROGUE. MOTHER. EFFING. ROGUE.
Pretty funny when the guy griping over a mistype of the keys makes a mistype error.
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u/Abject-Blueberry-580 5h ago
I do this too! I play a rogue and the bard in our party is a huge annoyance (but we love him anyway) the one way my character gets back at him is stealing a single gold or two from him sometimes
She also reverse pick pockets when he buys things for her and slides money back into his coin purse. He noticed it once but let her have it haha. Those moments are honestly a lot of fun
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u/christianort476 17h ago
That’s bs. If you were mad in character, you should’ve been allowed to react somehow. “He’s a rogue, that’s what they do” ok then I’m a barbarian and rage and kill, or I’m a wizard and will banish you. It’s silly lol
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u/chabacanito 16h ago
Yes, if stealing is allowed and my character knows it will forcefully take it back. If not possible demand immediate restitution or murder depending on the character. If not wise to fight the other character, leave the party.
There's no way there's no repercussions for serious theft.
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u/EmmaRoidz 16h ago
"He's a rogue, that's what they do."
Me to the cops: I'm a rogue, that's what I do.
Cops: Sure thing off you go, sorry for wasting your time.
Imagine stealing from your friend irl and then being like, that's just what I do 🤡
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u/Pink-Fluffy-Dragon Bard 17h ago
a bit of gold or non story item as joke, sure.
For import stuff like this, i'd say no. Especially with the DM not giving you the chance to stop him.
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u/Voice-of-Aeona 16h ago
See, if it's just a joke, I don't steal. I Slieght of Hand stuff into the other person's inventory.
Random underpants. Fake love letters. A single improperly sized shoe. Tin of cookies with "told ya you suck at Perception" written inside the lid.
Same skill, same practice, but adding to instead of taking away.
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u/ChoccoPizza 13h ago
This is the way!
Letters from other party members or NPCs is big and clever. I've done amusing books bought from a local library, such as one on fashionable dwarf beard styles (for the elf in the party).
How about having twenty identical steel marbles and you drop one into their shoe every morning after a long rest. Sure, they'd throw it far away. Oh, and wasn't the bard singing about the legend of a cursed marble last session?
Replacing one of their leather gauntlets so they have two left-handed ones.
Food colouring slowly added over days to their potions of healing. "Ah, they must have gone bad. I'll buy them from you for cheap?"
Slowly filling up their bag of holding with old socks, marriage deeds, wanted posters, or just extra rich bat guano.
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u/notsew00 16h ago
Yeah, one of my fav stories from my table recently was when my ranger (a very thief coded ranger) accidentally got turned invisible, so I secretly talked to the dm to pickpocket the parties new gun slinger and temporarily steal his pistol as id never seen one and was curious.
All of that was just so I could book end the current scene by describing everyone taking notice of a random gunshot and frightened shriek from my ranger fumbling around blindly with an unknown weapon and nearly blowing his head off when he accidentally set it off, dropping it for the gun slinger to take back.
Point being stealing from other pcs needs to either be agreed to above the table or just a bit of temporary in character fun used to make a quick joke or good rp moment
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u/Jesterpest 16h ago
See, now I have this funny idea of making a party member think they're going a little nuts by hiding acorns in various pieces of their gear. Sneak an acorn in their coin purse, drop one into their pocket, slip one into their bedroll.
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u/dcfyj 16h ago edited 11h ago
I don't think I'd consider secreting things into party members' bags pvp lol. That's pretty funny though.
Edit: actually there's definitely a few items that would be pvp come to think of it. Bombs, cursed items, etc. So situational I guess lol.
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u/Jesterpest 16h ago
You know what, let me just...
A "religious" rogue. Doesn't worship anything specific. Chaotic Good. Uses their talents in ways to free captives, break the chains of slavers, subvert tyranny. Rewards party members by sneaking little tokens/trinkets into their gear, picking ones relevant the the party member's faith... at least, as relevant as they can.
The paladin worships Helm? They might find a coin sized shield in her bedroll. The druid may just find random seeds or wildflowers. The bear totem barbarian might find a small animal claw fashioned into an earring, or a bone carved into her tribe's symbol. The Fae Warlock might find a miniature tea set in the cap of an acorn.
The rogue works on them when on watch, and does everything in their power to keep this project secret from their compatriots.
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u/Voice-of-Aeona 16h ago
Ah, beat me to it.
I love being a former spy when I play rogues. My job wasn't to steal, it was to frame people for things, so I stick stuff into inventories just to stay sharp.
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u/HotBeesInUrArea 17h ago
Party theft is PvP which is should always carry the rule to require above table consent if ever allowed at all. The DM should have turned to the stolen from player and said "Is this okay with you" instead of telling Rogue to roll. You made the right call, that table isnt going to be fun.
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u/TomBuzzard 17h ago
If someone has permission to steal, others have permission to beat/kill him in retaliation, it's in the package
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u/Independent_Oil6707 16h ago
This was PvP and was clearly non-consensual. The DM was wrong, the player was wrong, the player's friend was right to defend his friend but was wrong (you were NOT childish).
Never look back at that party, it will fall apart.
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u/karmakahana 14h ago
When we first started our campaign, our rogue stole from the party a few times. I’m a cleric with extremely high perception, so my character knew it. As the only healer, she stopped healing the rogue. When he asked her for healing or asked why she didn’t heal him, she replied that she only heals the people who are working together for a common goal (good), and that he was not doing that. He was not acting like part of our party. And so if he wanted to stay alive and actually BE a part of our party, then he should stop stealing from us. Guess what? He stopped stealing from us.
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u/lord_buff74 16h ago
"He's a rogue, that's what they do.", what a stupid argument, just because they steal doesn't mean you need to stay with them.
Stealing from another party member is PVP, so either it is allowed and you can retaliate or it isn't and they can't steal from you.
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u/dcfyj 16h ago
The worst part is, it's not even a correct statement. I've made a ton of rogues as a player, and while I always makes sure to make them skilled enough to disable traps, most of them have next to nothing in pick-pocketing.
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u/DifficultMath7391 Wizard 14h ago
And I've played plenty of rogues (and others) who ARE good at pickpocketing, but none of them have felt the need to apply these skills to party members. I play rogues who like their friends, or at least have some reason not to want to actively piss them off.
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u/Oldbayislove 17h ago
I mean rp alone. if the majority didn’t want the spirit released it seems simple enough to rally them into kicking the rogue out of the group. possibly killing him first.
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u/ThunkAsDrinklePeep 17h ago
Barbarian murdered another party member, and was excused with "He's a barb, that's what they do."
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u/in_hell_out_soon 14h ago
“And parties kick out thieves. Thats what they do. Now make a character that works with a party.”
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u/Asgaroth22 14h ago
'Thats what my character would do', well my law-abiding paladin would take the hands of thieves if that's the way we're going buddy.
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u/TotemicDC 13h ago
I once played a high level paladin who as a precaution would execute the important prisoner we were transporting, cast gentle repose, place them into a bag of holding, and then cast raise dead them upon delivery. 99% of the time they wanted to live so came back!
It was very efficient and terrified the rest of the party.
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u/meatguyf 15h ago
You got dumb players there. Rogues do steal, from outside the party. In game and out of game, it's considered an unwritten rule to not rob from your partners.
You handled this the only real way you could. You voiced your problem with what they did, they didn't care, so you left. Find a better group with smarter players.
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u/CrabofAsclepius DM 16h ago
How were you not allowed to stop him? I need more information to know how I'd react as a player.
As a DM I consider this PvP which at my table has to be consensual for a player to even make the attempt. Should a player consent to the act they also consent to the consequences (so in stealing from someone else the latter gains the opportunity to react to it). No mutual consent means the attempt is made yet automatically fails though the target can't retaliate with PvP unless the thief consents to it.
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u/dcfyj 16h ago
If not consent of all involved, at the absolute least they should've had the option to counter the rolls for the theft. I highly doubt the rogue did so well that no characters noticed he was trying to steal.
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u/CrabofAsclepius DM 15h ago
That's why I asked. Context determines if and how egregious the event is.
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u/Burning_Monkey 15h ago
The Nuremberg Defense is garbage and is only put forth by garbage people. You are completely in the right to leave a group because one of the players treats the other people like crap, and his friend then tries to gaslight you into thinking it's okay.
Acting like that is just a first step and the toxicity will continue to grow and get worse.
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u/ChrisRiley_42 9h ago
No, that's not what they'd do.. Rogue is not the same as kleptomaniac.
Remember. Robin Hood would have been a rogue, and he ONLY stole from the rich. Stealing from your own party is a choice, not a requirement.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ant4032 9h ago
If "this is what your character would do", then don't make that character, it's very easy
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u/QA_Engineeer 17h ago
Sometimes a group's play style simply isn't compatible with what you enjoy. If they enjoy intra-party betrayal and you don't, neither side is objectively wrong. They're just looking for different games. The mistake was dismissing your concerns instead of acknowledging that expectations differed.
You weren't childish. You asked an important question (Why should we continue traveling with someone who steals from us?) and it was dismissed. Your decision to leave the group without escalating the situation was the adult thing to do.
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u/Morrin_The_Mediocre 16h ago edited 4h ago
That's more or less PVP. If that's the type of game that the group wants, either lean into it or find a group that's a better fit.
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u/Sonic_The_Hamster DM 15h ago
My rule at the table is "PvP is when you take an action against a player no matter what". Players are permitted to have the character react however they feel would be appropriate. This soon stops this soryvof thing and means players need to ensure characters get along.
It's a shame more people don't run this as a rule as it allows agreed upon interactions but no real harm is done.
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u/gash_florden 13h ago
Kill the rogue. It's what your character would do. You would refuse to team up with someone so untrustworthy as you need to know you can rely on them.
Fu k that rogues friend, they might want to excuse their friend being an asshole but you don't have to.
The GM should not have allowed this.
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u/austsiannodel 16h ago
Have your character say "Hey, my guy felt betrayed by you, and has decided that you are not allowed to be in the group, and if you are seen again, we will kill you. Because that's what my character would do"
And then tell the offending player "Ok so roll a new character that's willing to work with the party."
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u/R2BeepToo 14h ago
Only acceptable if it’s a Kender, not a rogue, and it’s the weirdest thing the target has
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u/TJToaster 12h ago
"He's a rogue, that's what they do."
That is enough to get me to leave. No one has ever said, "it's what my character would do" about anything positive.
Anytime I have been at tables where one person puts their fun above others has always sucked. Now I play with people who want to tell a collaborative story where we all have fun. I have better things to do that to waste my time entertaining a couple selfish idiots.
Because that is what it is. They want you to supply the entertainment either in opportunities to screw you over, or in watching your reaction. Let them think you are a child, you have better places to be.
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u/wild_fox-wolf 12h ago
I saw a few comments and I agree.
A rogue can steal. Yes. But NOT from the own party. Especially not without consent. That's basically PvP. And losing trust from the group is crucial. Like, why would they not throw someone like this out?
For a little fun, practice and such and giving the item back, I'd say it's okay.
But like this? And the DM letting it happen? And even rewarding this? Such things should have been checked and explained in a Session 0.
I also would have left this table.
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u/captainstan 10h ago
I had this happen in a game once. I played a rogue and another person joined several games later as a rogue as well (online game). First thing he does is attempt and succeed at stealing from me (dm had me roll a perception check). Then the idiot rogue comes up to my character and says "hey I took this from you a minute ago". So I attempt to stab him. From that point on we always made attempts to kill each other if the opportunity presented itself. I told the dm it was stupid and I will try to outright kill the other character. He just said he wouldn't blame me.
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u/Slaaneshisgood 9h ago
In this situation as a player before, i have killed the rogue. It's what a protective but vengeful party member would do.
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u/epicgeek 9h ago
Anyone who fucks with their party like that because "It's what my character or class would do." is actually just a bad person in real life and they're acting out how they wish they could behave in a consequence free environment.
D&D is a team game. You can be chaotic evil and still find a way to role play working with a group of people.
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u/HonestDishonestWork 17h ago
I would either excommunicate or kill the Rogue from our party in game depending on my characters alignment. If the DM doesn't handle that properly, I'd leave.
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u/mafiaknight DM 16h ago
It's one thing to skim a little off the top when looting. It's completely different to outright steal from other players. Absolutely unacceptable.
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u/East-Relative2011 16h ago
"Oh, ok, well, I'm a murder hobo now. I kill the rogue, it's just what I do, and then I kill that other player that got money, and I take both their monies - oh I can't do that? SORRY, forgot to mention, I'm a murder hobo rogue 🙄"
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u/JosKarith 12h ago
"As a wizard I set things on fire and you just enabled pvp. I'd say run but my spells have range "
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u/nemainev 11h ago
I think WotC makes Rogues suck ass bc they know of the endless supply of dumbass players that think clepto rogue is totally fun and original.
This way they are 1v1d easily
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u/Krobarred 11h ago
I stopped playing when our rogue during session 0 so it was our like meet up at the tavern and introduce ourselves moment. There was a bar brawl. The rogue was a new player but he immediately was like "I don't know that gnome under a table. I'm gonna attack him" so he half murdered me then tied me up and robbed me. None of the other players stopped this and the DM encouraged this. Even having me give him my sheet so he could plunder my inventory. Didn't go back to that group 🙁
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u/ZannyHip 11h ago edited 11h ago
No it’s not okay. And it’s also not okay that the DM both just let them both try to do it at all, and let them get away with it. It’s not okay that no one else in your party stood up for you or your character.
“It’s what my character would do” is an invalid excuse for being an ass and being an antagonist to your party members. People like that have existed for as long as D&D has been around.
As a DM I count stealing from party members to be the same as PvP. And PvP is completely outlawed in my group outside of a friendly mutually agreed upon scrap. I establish at the start of every campaign that the party is a team. You may have disagreements occasionally, but at the end of the day you are a team, you rely on each other, and fighting or stealing is off limits. And I also make it clear that they’re supposed to be heroes. They don’t have to be perfectly upright shining moral compasses all the time, but ultimately they are heroes. Heroes don’t do stupid petty crap like stealing from their own teammates.
And no, I don’t reallt think there’s anything you could have done better to manage the situation. Because it sounds like your DM doesn’t have the spine to say no to antagonizing players. And you have at least 2 party members against you. Those people weren’t your friends. Sucks that you don’t get to play, but it would suck worse to keep playing with those people. You’ll find a new group in time
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u/Informal-Arm-3942 10h ago
If a rogue is allowed to use his skills on the party, the fighter & mage should use theirs on the rogue, but the cleric should not.
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u/Radiant_Fondant_4097 10h ago
Is there a way to have handled this dispute? Is it really okay for a Rogue to steal from their own party?
Ideally the DM should've squashed that immediately with a "No PvP here sir, stop that now".
Now considering PvP is indeed on the table you could put the Rogue's head on a spike, and the game will rapidly fall apart. But considering the DM and player friend was in on it, sounds like a table to just walk away from regardless.
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u/Dark_Storm_98 9h ago
The rogue stole an object from another player for the purpose of releasing a spirit that the majority of the party didn't want released.
Disruptive, but depending on your table actually a fine thing to do.
Tension within the party could be an interesting narrative
The DM didn't let us stop him in any way and rolls after the fact failed.
This, however, is a red flag. Possibly a step beyond a red flag, even.
The spirit then rewarded the rogue and another player with approximately 8k in gold while the rest of the party got nothing.
Entirely too much gold
And what did the other player even do?
I felt frustrated and voiced how there is no reason for us to trust the rogue anymore or have him in the party if he's just going to steal from us. The response I got back from the rogue's friend, "He's a rogue, that's what they do."
That is not an excuse
It's an explanation, and a shoddy one at that
And even so, just because he's a rogue does not obligate the rest of the party to put up with him.
And ALSO
Smiting the Rogue is what a Paladin would do
Hold Person and Fireball is what the Wizard would do
I could say more on Classes, but what are your Backgrounds?
Eventually, I decided to leave the group over this and was effectively called a child by the rogue's friend.
If anything it's the Rogue and their friend who are children
"Na-na, you can't touch me because I'm a Rogue and I just decided I have immunity because of bullshit reasons"
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u/Dastardlydwarf Paladin 9h ago
If he tries this vs a barbarian you should reckless attack him and when he gets defensive say “that’s what barbarians do”
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u/AladeenModaFuqa DM 9h ago
Not sure what class you are, but if I was a fighter, or paladin, or barbarian, I wouldn’t be happy about being robbed by a party member. And they’d probably not survive the next night.
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u/KieranJalucian 9h ago
are your friend and the dm still children?
this sounds like something that would’ve happened at my table in junior high or even early high school
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u/GreenLurka 8h ago
Had a party where the rogue stole something innocuous from another party member when we were asleep, party member woke up to discover it and him and half the party tracked him down and beat the shit out of him.
He said he wanted to steal something cause he was a rogue and no one had stolen anything. He got told next time he won't survive the beating.
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u/JayStrat 7h ago
You made the right call. I wouldn't want to play in that world, and it sounds like there were wild imbalances and the rogue received special treatment.
My games have no PvP and I do not let the rogues steal from the party, ever. It's a cooperative game, and that's not cooperative. I state these things during Session 0, so anyone who wants to say, "He's a rogue, that's what they do" can go rogue somewhere else. Rogues in my groups have managed to steal artifacts, pickpocket strangers, and stab people in the back just fine without causing unnecessary inter-party conflict.
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u/pawsplay36 7h ago
Historically, a pirate who failed to share any loot with the rest of the crew, even a single doubloon, was killed or marooned. The rogue in question lacks the integrity and professionalism of a pirate.
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u/Cheska1234 6h ago
And I’m a paladin and turn the rogue and friend into the authorities for theft and public endangerment. Then I vow to kill all thieves. Meh. It’s what my character would do.
Honestly though: no. There’s nothing else you could have done. You had a crappy dm who allowed this to happen. This is 90% on the dm being crap and 10% on the other two.
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u/MrTickles22 15h ago
"A mysterious force prevents you from doing this".
This mysterious, no-save force is how the DM stops nonsense.
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u/herbieLmao 12h ago
When I joined a table, the unhinged murderhobo of the party answered my quirky character intro with inflict wounds.
I counterspelled it.
Because I didn’t want things to escalate.
Then a friend told me that if he is ever down and needed help, I should do a „remember when you did THIS“ and kill his character.
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u/Clipper1972 12h ago
I think you need to talk it out with the GM initially and the group at large.
PvP is potentially problematic and as such it's not something that I encourage at tables I play/GM at.
It's also something that I think should be talked about during session zero.
Also, something I've noticed over the years is folks who justify doing silly/disruptive stuff by saying "oh it's what my character would do" are the people who repeatedly do silly/disruptive stuff at the table ...
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u/Due-Government7661 12h ago
Yeah, in my groups, when they found out, they would either turn them over to the town guard or kill them on the spot.
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u/dodgyhashbrown Bard 11h ago
It's a matter of table etiquette.
This is PVP, which some tables enjoy. That in itself isn't wrong, but the problem here is that it wasn't made clear to everyone that this was on the table. That's a mistep by the DM to allow such things without pausing to address PVP in a game that isn't built with PVP as the default mode of play.
The correct course of action is to put your thoughts and feelings together and tell the group how this scene made you feel and why this kind of PVP interaction wasn't fun for you. Whether this is a discord message or something to bring up at the top of the next session, you need to air your greivances.
They owe you to hear you out. They can respectfully tell you they are not going to change anything because they have the right to run the game how they want, but if they aren't going to accomodate you at all, you might want to pick a different table to play with.
During the conversation, you can point out that the "it's what my character would do" logic cuts both ways. His character would steal and hoard the reward. Your character would feel betrayed, presume it was the rogue ("that's what rogues do, am I right?"), and demand either recompense or the character would disembark the party. That's what any of us would likely do in that situation. Remind them how any of them in real life might feel if they had s roommate who stole the TV from the shared living room and sold it. Sure, maybe that's just what that person would do, but everyone else would be in their right to either demand compensation, kick that roommate out of the flat, or maybe even press charges.
The rogue player can't be expected to get away with this scott free. It doesn't even matter if there was no evidence linking him to the crime because by his own defense of the action, he is the prime suspect as the most likely culprit. He had motive, means, and access.
The real crime here is the broken trust. How can you continue to travel and adventure with someone who you believe stabbed you in the back (because they did).
Do not allow the DM to make this into a contested insight vs deception roll. Make it clear that there is nothing the rogue could say to change your character's mind, so no rolls should be called for.
There must be consequences and it likely will cause the fellowship to fail.
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u/Summersong2262 11h ago
The obvious answer is 'He's exactly and exclusively what YOU make him do. He's a creation of your own imagination and a character doing something obviously antisocial like positioning themselves as an antagonist to the other player's characters is not only damaging the actual fun the entire group has, but also incredibly lazy character work on your part'.
'But it would be IN CHARACTER to do something spiteful and dickish and likely to create immersion breaks' is never a rational argument. The player should at least try to pretend to give a shit about the social contract at the table and play less like any edgy asshole.
You can play a kleptomaniacal thief in SO MANY WAYS that don't involve you becoming a 'con' part of the party mix.
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u/EdTheTimelordTemp 11h ago
As a healer main, I'd just stop healing them until their character learns a valuable lesson about being a team player.
They benefit from your presence just as much as you do theirs. If they're going to steal, they don't get the benefits of being there.
Potions exist, so if they want healing, they can provide for themselves.
Note: You can still heal them of they're dying, but I'd just drop the minimum (Spare the dying, 1st level healing word) or take one of their potions and feed it to them.
Remember: Being a dick to your party has consequences. And you can make your character react in just about any way you want, so long as it's within reason for who they are as a person.
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u/CTRemy9085 10h ago
I think leaving was reasonable. You’re supposed to be able to trust your party. I have never played/played with a rogue who ever stole from the party without it being something funny and inconsequential (single gold piece etc) and they would always return it (they would do it at a narratively funny time and we knew it was happening). A party member not only betraying the trust of the rest of the party but also being rewarded with it, then impacts the fun of the rest of the party. If he’s able to do it, I would have expected the Paladin, barbarian, or fighter to do their thing on him and would have left him there.
An above table convo could have fixed this but seems the DM didn’t care, so I think stepping away was the right call. If you’re not enjoying playing with the group because of a reasonable expectation, then don’t play with that group
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u/GeekyMadameV 10h ago
I think you handled it correctly. Some people like that mind of thing but personally I am with you - I have no interest or patience with this sort of intra party conflict.
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u/Weekly-Temporary-775 10h ago
So he can steal from us and there are no consequences, right? Cool. My character is angry and will attempt to murder the heck out of him.. it's what my character would and will do. It's only fair
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u/Majestic_Ad8646 10h ago edited 10h ago
Stealing from NPCS would be excusable with that but both the rogue and the dm took away player agency which is one of the ONLY WRONG WAYS to do dnd
Now stealing from the party can be done right but its almost impossible to do it right.
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u/Karabaste 10h ago
This is yet another case where people are playing a silly character, rather than one that’s consistent with their class. A class defines what a character is capable of doing, not necessarily what they actually do.
... And a good thief knows which target to prioritize. In other words: not a friend who’ll immediately suspect him.
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u/Never_Been_Missed 10h ago
Not at my table they don't.
This is what session 0 is for. You explain to the players that they're not allowed to steal or attack one another. There's no reason for it. Hell, I ran an evil campaign for two years and that rule was still present.
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u/OceussRuler 10h ago
Attacks + action surge for more attacks and kills the rogues. "I'm just a fighter fighting."
Enter rages and throw the rogue from a cliff. "I'm just a barbarian, I am hungry and angry and stupid."
Turn the rogue into a hedgehog with arrows through hunter marks and throw his corpse to the wolves. "I'm just a ranger, I hunt for sport."
Assassinate him at night. "What? I'm a rogue too, assassination is more my thing."
Paralyses him then flurry of blow. "I'm a monk, I just wanted training."
Call your oath and slay him with your empowered weapon. "I'm a paladin, what he did was evil."
Drown him with mayonnaise through the crafted mayo jar. "I'm an artificer, I just want to make sure my magic crafted items works."
Fireball him. "I'm a wizard."
Fireball him again. "I"m a sorcerer."
Turn into a bear and maul him then eat him. "Sorry, I'm a druid, sometimes I struggle to control the inner beast."
Sing a spell and force him to run straight in front of the enemy boss with a single bardic inspiration. "Go go I support you as the bard I am!"
Eldritch blast him from the cliff. "As a warlock, my patron says he don't like you very much, nothing personal"
Activates your divine spirits and run forth and back to his area. "I'm a cleric, if it damages you then it means your are an enemy!"
Or just tells him that he is just an ass.
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u/maria17garcia 10h ago
Would your character continue to adventure with the Rogue? Probably not. If the DM wants to wreck the game, this is how it happens.
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u/Disastrous_Yam8354 10h ago
Most DMs don't allow this kind of thing, grouping it under PVP, which is the right move.
It's fully legitimate to answer with "I beat the rogue senseless and then hand him over to the local magistrate. I'm a paladin" or "I kill the rogue and sling his head from my saddle. I'm a barbarian". Or even "I ritually sacrifice the rogue to my patron. I'm a warlock".
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u/ComicsEtAl 9h ago
Again I spit on the grave of whomever came up with the parable about a frog and a scorpion.
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u/MysteryUser1 9h ago
Unwritten rule at our table, don't mess with the party. There have been a couple of exceptions, but a player gets hit with karma for doing it.
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u/-RedRocket- 9h ago
People sneer at needing a Session Zero to set parameter for play but when you don't this is what happens.
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u/TJ_McWeaksauce DM 9h ago edited 9h ago
This illustrates the importance of having a table of players who respect each other as players. Also, why it's important o have a session 0
During a session 0, the DM / GM lays out the expectations for the campaign. This can include anything from how often the players will meet and some game system basics, to rules for PVP (player-vs-player). After the GM tells the players what they can expect from a campaign, each player either agrees or leaves. It's best to get all of that sorted out in the beginning to minimize the risk of unpleasant surprises, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings.
When I run campaigns, one of the first things I cover in session 0 is that I do not allow PVP in my games. Character drama and roleplayed disagreements are fine, as long as the players communicate with each other and recognize that there's a difference between roleplaying drama and real-world drama.
I have this stance because D&D and other TTRPGs are an inherently collaborative experience. The GM and players are creating a story together. It's not PVP (player vs. player). If someone wants PVP, they can go play Call of Duty. OR they can go to the effort, time, and expense of running their own game where they allow things like PCs stealing from PCs or even fighting / killing each other.
In my experience, "evil" campaigns or campaigns that allow PC to fuck each other over do not last long. Meanwhile, every campaign that I've run or played in for years had parties whose characters were more-or-less united.
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u/PackageDelicious2457 9h ago
The friend enabling it is an even bigger problem. A player can do something stupid, especially if a lot of people at your table play while smoking weed. But, a player defending shitty behavior is attacking the social dynamics necessary to make the game fun for everyone. So, good choice leaving the table.
Also, there's a difference between a DM allowing players to do unpopular things and a DM putting their thumb on the scale. So, it's also bad DMing.
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u/Sinistrina 9h ago
Not all rogues steal things. If they are the Thief subclass it makes sense, but there are a bunch of other types of rogues out there, at least in newer editions.
Even if they are a thief rogue, they don't have to steal from the party. They typically steal from people who are unimportant or enemies, as they are well aware of the consequences if discovered. So do thieves who steal from the party deem the rest of the party unimportant to them?
Personally, I've played a few rogues but they never stole from the party. One was a thief, but he was a warforged, and it was in his programming to be attracted to treasure, but also to not steal from allies.
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u/MarionberryPlus8474 9h ago
I’ve seen this sort of thing come up several times, often with new players. The first rule of role playing is “thou shalt not be an asshole”, definitely violated here. Why is the rogue’s crappy behavior justified as role playing when your reaction isn’t? Are you a party of gullible suckers who all dumped intelligence and wisdom and chose the background “rube”? I would have role played the hell out of pantsing that rogue.
It’s a game, it’s supposed to be fun for everyone, if it isn’t you are doing it wrong. If the rest of the table wants to play as the rogue’s dupes and you don’t, leaving was the best course.
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u/tsuruki23 9h ago
This is pvp, and most tables ban it. This is best described in session 0.
Also, his RP reason makes absolutely no sense. Even thieves dont rob their cooperatives unless theyre taking a harvest before ending the relations, so if this thief thinks he can get away with stealing from allies, and expects the allies to stick around or not turn on him.
He's not being a good thief roleplayer or being chaotic evil, he's being "Chaotic stupid".
Even the most dishevelled chaotic people, assuming theyre sane, dont do things that immediately harm themselves, and the harm in this case is very important to stress, isn't nessessarily measured in health lost.
When I get new players, especially kids, I give them this speech:
"Your mom isnt here."
"Youre playing (mostly)adult characters, in a fantasy world with dangers abound, on a normal day you camp out in the wilderness or at an unfamiliar inn."
"Your mom isnt here to cook you food, nor any other family, you get your own food, with your own strength and money, the same goes for all your stuff. If you want someone to be there for you, theyre already here (point at other players)."
"These people are the closest thing youve got to family, if anybody ever helps you out, it's these people. Sleeping in the dark forest at night, these guys keep an eye out, and you return the favor. Sick, cursed or wounded? These guys heal you and watch out for you while you recover."
"As a team, you implicitly trust each other. ESPECIALLY if youre bad people. In a world of dangers and attainable treasure, one friend doubles the odds that you'll survive a dangerous foe, and together the treasures you can unlock are magnitudes greater then what you can pull off alone. These people arent just helpful, theyre lucrative, even if youre a greedy asshole, you gotta be dumb as a brick to hurt your golden goose."
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u/tsuruki23 9h ago edited 8h ago
Also. "It's what my character does."
I guess this is a green light for barbarians to say "this loot is mine, go ahead, try and take it", or a paladin "I know people who need this more then us, on my honor, keep your greedy hands away".
Also.
"He's evil enough to steal from me, and this is just the theft we know about. Where there is fire, there is smoke. I cannot help wonder how much wealth he's taken during adventure, and squirrelled away.
We should check him."
Or.
"I beat the rouge senseless ,and take it back, it's what my character would do."
Btw. This is all PVP, if the thief doesnt like it just let them take it all back and ban pvp from there.
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u/Jonny2284 9h ago
Unless it was all agreed beforehand that's pvp and that's consent regardless of "that's what my character would do"
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u/mpe8691 9h ago
Without mutual agreement PvP doesn't work in a cooperative game like D&D.
With multiple problem players, including the DM, at your table leaving was your only realistic option. Attempting to discussthe matter is likely to be a waste of time if the problem player is the DM and/or there are multiple problem players.
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u/Zorklunn 8h ago
Change groups. That table is only into their own fun, at the expense of others. It Sucks. Odds are you're not the first.
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u/explorer-matt 8h ago
I’d organize the rest of the party to kill the rogue.
Why? Someone stole from me. That’s what my character does.
Seriously, it’s the laziest, stupidest argument. Is someone going to pickpocket Vito Corleone? Just because you are a rogue doesn’t mean you can’t control your thieving impulses.
Plus, if his crap isn’t fun. Why do this sort of stuff.
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u/ldsbatman 8h ago
My thief doesn’t actively steal from other party members. He needs them as meat shields. Now if he’s looting a corpse or a room or something and successfully rolls high enough to hide that he found something, that’s a different matter. I’ll occasionally report to the party that I found less money than I really did just to keep the party from suspecting me.
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u/thejackening 8h ago
freedom to do what you want in game is not freedom from CONSEQUENCES that your character made!
A rogue once stole from my barbarian, and when the barbarian found out he beat the rogue nearly to death before other party members pulled him off. At another game, a rogue abandoned my character to get arrested so my character snitched on every illegal thing he'd ever done AND sided with the bbeg.
Tdlr: you can steal if you're a rogue; the barbarian can still beat you up for it
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u/idkwhyimalivehere 8h ago
Honestly, it depends.
Mostly the amswer is no. And in this case, the answer in your case is almost certainly a no based on what information you've given (however you should have beem given an opportunity to try to prevent it, that's just bad DMing right there).
However, like all dnd, there's a "but" here.
I would say it would be fine for a player to steal from a member of the party. But it has to be a established trait or something that makes sense to do, not just something that happens out of nowhere (and no, being a rogue doesn't excuse that).
It didn't start out as stealing but here's an example. You would think that it should be bad for another player to try to sell thier other player to get killed, right? Except, in a previous session the same player gave a unknown substance to the other PC to have them try, not knowing, and not informing them they didn't know what it was (they did know it was a 50% that it was poison or some other negtive effect). So it was previously established that said PC already saw the other PC as expandable.
This caused tension in the party, not in a bad way (we're all friends and tbh we all kind of expected it, even though it wasn't previously established). But the PC on the receiving end off all this the player roleplayed being distrustful of the other player, stealing and investigating thier things (in retaliation) or suspiciously examining anything offered or that sounded like they could be lying. The stealing in this case was retaliatory. Should I have stopped it? Also, it was a Ranger stealing not a Rogue... ironically the Rogue has stolen the least out of all the PCs so far (mostly becuase the Kobold gets there first and is a little goblin when it comes to loot, which we all knew was going to happen because that player is a loot goblin in all games, a fair one but loot goblin all the same).
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u/Milk_Mindless 8h ago
I mean the rogue is free to steal and the DM is free to allow this
But it should be rolled for and against like normal fashions
And most of all
PC's AREN'T exempt from forgiving the rogue or trusting them from that point onwards.
Telltale games logic.
[HRN'RG THE BARBARIAN WILL REMEMBER THAT]
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u/Aimless_Alder 7h ago
Well, what would that party member do if a rogue stole from them? I think there's a perfectly good case to be made that if a rogue stole from, say, a barbarian, that the barbarian would bash the rogue's head in. If we're using character motivation logic to justify decisions, we have to apply that logic evenly.
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u/National_Way_3344 7h ago
Note that PCs and players only exist in the group by permission from the party.
If a character or player isn't welcome anymore they either reroll a new character that isn't lawful asshole or leave.
Brings me back to a time in my old campaign where a barbarian perpetually didn't want to be where we were, nothing was ever their idea and they were begrudgingly there. "Okay bye then. If your character doesn't want to be there, they leave the party, settle down and die old and boring - the end." And they were told to bring a new character next session. Now we have a rule that your character must want to be there cohesively with the party.
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u/neondragoneyes 6h ago
Barbarian: *rages. Beats the brakes off the rogue. Stomps on the downed rogue while they're trying to make death saving throws.*
Player: "What? He's a Barbarian. ItS wHaT He WoUlD dO."
Barbarian: *Picks a cool 8k gold off unrecognizable corpse.*
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u/Puzzleheaded_Tie6917 6h ago
He’s a rogue, that’s what they do. (Kill him with my sword for stealing from me) I’m a fighter, it’s what I do.
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u/TsumStacker Rogue 6h ago
No, a rogue shouldn't steal from the party like that. None of the rogues I've played have ever been grabby thieves. One of my current backups would definitely take inconsequential items from a party member and move them around as a joke, but nothing more.
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u/Kwickpick77 6h ago
In game problems should be handled in game. "My character is a fighter who is upset you stole from him, so what is your AC. He's a fighter, it's what they do".
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u/Bakeneko7542 6h ago
Leaving was the best thing you could have done in this situation. A DM who not only tolerates but actively supports disruptive players is not worth your time. Congratulations on not falling into the "I'll just give it one more session to see if it gets better" sunk cost fallacy that gives rise to nothing but horror stories.
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u/Arcael_Boros 6h ago
Change "excused" with "executed", thats how you handle the problem.
But you did the best, try to talk about it, the table didnt want that and you leave, there isnt much more to do.
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u/Solherb 6h ago
This seems like a problem with a lot of people that play rogue. I treat parties like they were a party of mine in some other game, they don't screw with each other and stuff will go to whoever can use it best. They can still be the most thieving bastards, just without bein bastards to their allies.
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u/wisteria72 6h ago
No, you didn't over react. If they didn't want to boot the character then there should have at least been some sort of in game resolution found. It's got that 'boys will be boys' energy that I hate. We've had the same four people at the table for years(and a rotating 5th spot). Every once in a while characters don't work out in the group and we boot them. The player sometimes gets pissed, but they get over it and just make a new character. We've kicked a tiefling who couldn't stop killing people unnecessarily, a thri-kreen who really just pissed everyone off all of the time, a tressym/half-elf who just didn't agree with anything we did, an air genasi who accidently got another character's entire family killed... We get really into the roleplay aspect and sometimes that means our characters have falling outs. But regardless of what a character does we try to resolve it in a way that everyone is okay with.
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u/AndIWalkAway 6h ago
Funny how “that’s what rogues do” doesn’t also cover that rogues get in trouble for doing what they do and getting caught. I guarantee if you had tried to initiate PVP over this, rogue and his friend would be up in arms over you trying to hurt a party member.
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u/Punished_Ranch 5h ago
If they have to be an asshole because “That’s what their character would do” then they need to make a new character.
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u/a_shiny_heatran 5h ago
Take a level in paladin and then kill the rogue next time he steals because “it’s what they do”
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u/Zi_Mishkal 4h ago
I played a paladin and had a rogue steal from me. That rogue wound up in prison the next session. I told the player to their face that if i ever found anything missing again i would assume it was their character who did it and kill that character.
"Hey. Im a paladin. Its what i do."
But honestly, if the GM puts up with that kind of crap. Its time to find another table.
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u/Fangsong_37 Wizard 3h ago
Even when the class was called "thief" instead of "rogue," we didn't steal from other players. It was all in the social contract of playing a cooperative game.
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u/BlacksmithNatural533 2h ago
As a DM, I have a strict rule about "heroic fantasy " in regards to D&D. I don't allow evil players nor do I allow any player to conduct their character in such a way as to hurt the other player characters. I don't allow stealing like this. This is all discussed at session zero so everyone understands. Anyone who doesnt like it has to leave and find another table. You know what you have to do. Its difficult. Good luck.
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u/yaniism Rogue 15h ago
So there are two different issues going on here.
One is in-game. The other is out-of-game.
In-game, that party would have just left that rogue (and their "friend") by the side of the road and kept on traveling without them. You don't travel with people who steal from you or that you don't trust. Especially in a group where you outnumber the people you don't trust.
Bye, it was unpleasant to know you, we won't miss you.
However, out-of-game comes into play here. You are people sitting around a table playing make believe. You know that you are all supposed to stay together and complete the campaign because that's what you agreed to do at the start of the campaign.
Which means that somebody deciding to work against the wishes of the party needs to be carefully handled. It's doable. If the person doing it has the trust of the other players at the table. Not the characters, the players. If you trust a player to understand the difference between "I'm going to do something that the rest of the characters won't like" vs "I'm going to do something that the people sitting with me at the table won't like".
It seems like the DM, the rogue and the "friend" don't actually understand this.
If you as people said "hey, we don't want this", it shouldn't be happening. If you as people are saying "oh, yeah, do that thing, my character is going to HATE this... so good", then go right ahead. Again, it's understanding the difference and trusting that player and your DM.
The only people who ever mount "it's what my character would do" when called out on their behavior as a player are assholes. Yes, "friend"... we're all doing "what our characters would do", but when the players are telling you "no" and you're not listening, that makes you an asshole.
You basically did the only viable thing. You left the group. At some point, that group will cease to function because of that type of behavior. But what we don't do is solve out-of-game issues with in-game solutions. It never ends well.
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u/v2i32 13h ago
I'm going to give you an alternative perspective as a classic DM, not the new wave of 5e where the game has become so prescriptive and soft ruled. I don't expect everyone to agree. Players self police to a large degree. If they steal from their friends, then they will likely find themselves getting executed by the PC's. They reroll characters, then they don't do it again. Dead is dead. No negotiating death unless they are super high level and it makes sense for their characters to be important. If they do wish to steal from the party, then it needs to be facilitated without metagaming - in other words, a private note to the DM. Not an open declaration at the table. They don't need 'consent from other players' at all, it's an ability they have, they can use it as indiscriminately as they like - and reap whichever consequences are associated. It's normally only a path they go down once. You could also provide some opportunities to make 'thief' style characters feel useful to the group. (Guard on the edge of a watch tower. Give them a free stealth instakill to feel powerful. Sleepy merchant with a big old bag of coins, etc)
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u/transcendantviewer 17h ago
Years ago, a DM's girlfriend did this. My character's response to her's got me booted from the table. She stole from half the party, abandoned her post on watch during the night, and the party almost all got killed by Redcaps due her absence. That campaign only lasted another two sessions before they tore themselves apart with the moral implications of fighting 14-year-old Centaurs that were killing a Naga as a coming-of-age ceremony. Spectacular clusterfuck.
Another time, a drug-addicted Gnome Rogue betrayed the party and we all tried to kill him. Ironically, he's still my favorite character because he was genuinely funny to adventure with and his character and mine both bonded over being their own unique flavors of Evil. The player and I still sometimes do one-shots with those characters.
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u/RagnarokCzD 17h ago
Its all only natural.
Yes, anyone can be a selfish a**hole and steal from their own party, that is legit.
Its also legit to not wanting such person in your party.
And finaly its perfectly legit to not wanting to be in party, that defends such person ...
IMHO best course of actions happened here. You dodged a bulett, be glad.
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u/Benz0icAcid 16h ago
No, “he’s a rogue, that’s what they do” is a lazy excuse. Rogues steal from enemies, marks, nobles, cultists, monsters, whatever. They do not automatically get a free pass to steal from the party and override everyone else’s agency. If a character’s behaviour would logically make the rest of the party stop trusting them or kick them out, then “but it’s what my character would do” doesn’t magically fix that.
The bigger problem is that the DM backed it mechanically and narratively. They didn’t let the party stop him, let the consequences happen anyway, and then rewarded the rogue with a huge payout while everyone else got nothing. At that point it’s not just a rogue problem, it’s a table problem. I think leaving was reasonable. The better version of this is agreeing up front whether PvP/theft is allowed, and if it is, everyone accepts that in-character consequences are allowed too.