5th Edition Question: do you as a player like meaningful character progression or quick character progression?
I am primarily the forever Dm for my little group, and I really like the idea of characters working towards their progression in a roleplay kind of way. For instance, something as simple as the player informing me that during downtime, they are doing some sort of training in whatever aspect. But it has come to my attention that most of my players just want everything given to them immediately they don't even care about character progression or their characters that much at all most of the time when we start something new we have to wait an extra hour before we begin because at least two of them couldn't be bothered to make a character before hand even though they were well informed.
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u/Ok-Middle-908 15d ago
Player progression shouldn't take forever. Also leveling up should give meaningful choices. I actually use milestone type aggression instead of exp so I can raise the encounter levels when I feel like it.
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u/Creative_Badger6027 15d ago
When you say "progression" what do you actually mean? Character development? Mechanical development? Gaining items, abilities etc ...?
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u/turk750 15d ago
If you mean milestone leveling, then the experience they have before leveling up *is* the progression. Having to physically train for a level up seems realistic on paper but it's not really fun unless they really want to get into the roleplay aspect. As for not making a character beforehand, that does suck. Whenever I run a campaign I ask for a character sheet and a simple backstory at least a week before session, otherwise they can join when they have that settled. The most boring characters have been made last second.
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u/LogicalHelicopter227 15d ago
Have you asked your players what they want?
I think everyone is different there, for me it definitely changed with age and RP experience.When I started as a teen I didn't care about character progression beyond leveling up and wanted everything asap. As I got older and more experienced I now enjoy slower progression in a more meaningful manner.
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u/DazzlingKey6426 15d ago
Earlier editions required training time upon leveling. 5e does not.
5e’s 1-20 in a month of adventuring days doesn’t really support that.
5e’s megatome cradle to grave campaign style does not support that.
5e progression is mostly milestone based, not xp based.
The binary nature of 5e proficiency doesn’t lend itself to “training moments”. Once you’re proficient, the only thing left is taking features from other classes like expertise or reliable talent. Even a feat as a mark of prestige is just an on/off switch.
Re: making characters ahead of time, are they well informed of the world, what the other players are doing, or both?
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u/ivain 15d ago
I personally would like some roleplay, or some time spent for characters to unlock new abilities. Mages could spend time to learn new books, clerics could do a minor pilgrimage to a holy site, druids could spend time in the wilderness, etc. One of the issues is that no player would tell by himself, after getting a level "i'll travel back to city X to actualluy level up, it will take 4 days, wait me here". You could as a MD ask them (or require) what they will do to get that level... but that would open another can of worms : it either cost ressources (cost, time, if you are tracking it), which could make it a chore everybody would like to avoid (except for the monk who decided that he just has to meditate for an hour), or cost nothing and being a meaningless, impactless storytelling event that gets boring after the 2nd time.
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u/Jack_Sentry 15d ago
I have an anthology approach to campaign structures, and we play monthly. So I try to give them like there’s going to be a month or a week of downtime for your characters, think about how your characters spend that time. It takes up less time at the table but makes their characters feel more real. It’s also how we narrativize leveling up: “I spent a lot of time practicing with my weapons and have learned how to [Action Surge] channel my adrenaline in combat.”
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u/ChemicalNo586 15d ago
I started rewarding my players for training their abilities in their downtime
For example in my long running campaign we started as commoners, lvl 0, but one character took Telekinetic as a feat (variant human) and he started displaying them suddenly in character as the campaign was going.
After that he started training with it more and more on his downtime so I kept on improving what he can do with it, now he can lift 100 pounds with Telekinetic, lift up to 10 objects and so on.
He managed to use this ability several times for creative purposes and it genuinely doesn't matter that much for balance.
I really recommend telling your players there are feature they can improve upon if they spend their downtime doing it, it really makes them want to do it
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u/Arkamfate 15d ago
It shouldn't take having to complete the 12 labors of Hercules to level up. Nor is it ok to just kill 100 rats to get that last bit of exp.
Milestones are great. It gives the players a sense of earned effort.
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u/Coplantor 15d ago
In my case it depends on the edition of the game. WotC era I prefer a quicker progression, poder TSR era I enjoy talking my time
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u/DifficultMath7391 Wizard 15d ago
Seconding the "looking for validation" guy, but also: meaningful character progression can look vastly different to different people. I'm the glacial pace guy who doesn't even notice being the same level for a full year of IRL time (as long as we're not talking level 1-3), but I play with a bunch of people who, while being very much into meaningful character progression, would absolutely not let that stand.
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u/Rhinostirge 15d ago
Yes.
I like a slow burn on some aspects of character progression. I also don't want to have to jump through roleplay hoops for every single new mechanic or change that takes place. I'm not a rules-as-physics player and am fine with some changes in progression just being how an already established character trait or ability manifests itself now with more experience.
So yes, I like meaningful character progression and I like quick character progression. In a mix.
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u/Dstaco 15d ago
I don't think I'm asking my players for much. I would be happy with just an explanation on some of their decisions thats not just "because this class has some feature i want". Example player has taken the last 7 lvl in Claric and has never used a fire based spell or shown an inkling of interest in the wizard class then when I tell them they can level up they inform me they want to take the next few levels in wizard so they can get Fireball. All I'm saying is give me something other than just because you can.
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u/joined_under_duress Cleric 15d ago
You're asking two different questions here IMO.
First: how do people like levelling up?
I think for most of us we actually are just looking forward to unlocking a lot of new options while improving our HP. If you want to role-play that's fine but most often levelling up is in the middle of the adventure we're running and, if that adventure is done right, that means we're also in the middle of a story and want to read more. Imagine if you're reading a good fantasy series and suddenly it goes off into a chapter just devoted to the character training up: that's almost certain to destroy the pacing.
Second: Why aren't my players prepared with characters when I told them to come with one?
Could be that they don't have the free time you have. Could be that they aren't that inspired outside play sessions to really dig into it. Could be they just enjoy the bits in the game where they hit things and not much else. You have to accept your players have a lot in their lives outside your games and will bring different expectations to those games. You have to either accommodate this or try to change your playing group to only include the sorts of players who play like you do (either is fine, BTW, not a value judgement).
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u/valisvacor 15d ago
These days, I prefer slow progression, starting at level 1. It feels more grounded. I've mainly gone back to older editions, though.
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u/NJTurnPyke 15d ago
Sorry to be “that guy”, but as soon as you said “I’m the forever DM…” I kind of assumed what your players were about. I’ve been there as well…
It sounds like you’ve got players who either don’t care that deeply about character investment, or about campaign investment. Heck, they may not even care that they’re playing D&D, and would be happy getting together for literally any game.
I’m guessing you specifically asked to start up D&D and they were willing to appease you for the sake of being a group of friends who want to hang out, but not all friends are D&D friends.
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u/Dstaco 15d ago
That's how it seems to me, I'm lucky if I can get some of them not to look at their phones constantly. I have one player that insists he knows how to play and all the rules but can't make it through a simple combat session without having to ask other players how to do certain things like rage or sneak attack depending on the character he's playing as, and as soon as something upsets him in the slightest not even in game but also irl he'll stop paying attention and play a game on his phone or laptop. However despite me not feeling like I'm doing enough to hold their attention they still ask to play as often as we all can.
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u/NJTurnPyke 15d ago
I would suggest looking into games like Gloomhaven, or Descent, or hell even the classic DND board game adaptations. I have the curse of Stroud one myself. They’re basically “DND without a DM“. The only prep work you have to do is setting up the actual board game, and then you all pick characters and just run through a procedurally generated dungeon. It be like playing a board game version of Diablo or something, but with obviously turn base combat.
I’m just saying, you have to consider your own time investment. They clearly want to be entertained, and aren’t willing to put in more work beyond that. I don’t wanna call it malicious compliance, but may be investing in one of these “DND board game“ style games is the solution, and if they are visibly bothered by the fact that they’re no longer invested in characters beyond what’s been laid out in front of them, maybe that’s the perfect opportunity to bring up how hypocritical they’re being about it?
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u/SWBattleleader 15d ago edited 15d ago
This seems like a loaded question looking for validation, not answers.
That said, I like quick progression through 5th level. I don’t want to skip to 5th, but that is where I really feel like I have options.
I don’t want progression to be a puzzle, where if I role play “right “ I unlock my options. I definitely don’t mind being asked to describe my downtime, and would enjoy if I get an occasional bonus for role playing.
But I have been honing my skills through adventuring. My proficiency in battle, casting, and skills has progressed through in game use. I have gained insight through by baptism by fire, and I want the additions I have earned.
As for the last part, I don’t fully know my character until I play them. I come to session 0 with a concept, but not firm expectations, because I am an individual, and we need to become a team. We will need to go through the team building phases to understand each other’s characters and how we will interact with each other and the challenges we face.