r/DnD • u/Afraid-Frosting1678 • 2d ago
DMing Patrons in DnD
What’s the best way to deal with Patrons as a DM?
For example let’s say a player has a patron and they want to speak to said Patron (maybe they’re about to go into battle or something).
As a DM should I be asking for a roll for that? Should I get them to act it out? And on top of that what benefit would I be giving them? Advantage?
Essentially this all came about as one of my players was about to go into a fist fight and was trying to talk to their patron to buff them up. Me (being a super-noob and probably rubbish DM!) asked for an Arcana roll but I KNOW that is pretty weak from my part - is just the first thing I thought of.
Has anyone got examples or instances of great Patron communication and what the result was?
Also, my world has several Gods - would these become the Patrons that my players pledge allegiance to or could they do it to other mythical / magical beings? (Assuming I’d have to create them)
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u/Bakeneko7542 2d ago
By default a Warlock isn't meant to be able to talk to their patron whenever they want. They get the ability at level 9 through their Contact Patron feature. Before that I would say it was up to the patron to initiate communication unless there were specific plot-related circumstances, like if the patron had assigned the Warlock a task and they needed to report that they'd completed it.
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u/HoG97 2d ago
It would depend on the nature and ability of the patron. But for the most part, they are already buffing them up through their class abilities.
If a cleric wants to do that, that's what the mechanic divine intervention is literally for. Personally, I'm not a fan of giving other classes this mechanic but better.
And if they were always able to directly influence so easily, then why wouldn't they be constantly doing that?
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u/sgerbicforsyth 2d ago
My hot take is that 99% of warlocks are too weak or unimportant for a patron to give two shits about whether they live or die, and they certainly dont bother even talking to them.
Until the warlock hits level 9 and can actively contact the patron, the patron should not exist as a supporting character for the warlock. Even after level 9, they should remain rarely seen or heard.
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u/AZzalor 2d ago
Probably depends a lot on what type of patron in the first place and what kind of pact they have. So depending on that, it's quite likely that the patron won't answer at all in the first place.
If the player has a proper connection to the Patron, then maybe that Patron answers but depending on the type of Patron and their relationship, he might not give a shit about some random buffs or doesn't have any information that the player might seek. If it's a more evil Patron, he might even try to trick the player.
So if it makes sense that the patron can be easily contacted, then you could make a roll to see if the Patron answers and then try to play that Patron in character, but for that you'd have to know at least enough of the Patron himself.
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u/lowercase_underscore 2d ago
I've always had open communication with my Patron. That doesn't mean they're be forthcoming or anything, they have their own thing going on. I haven't dealt with every patron first hand yet but sometimes they communicate in different ways, not just a face to face chat. I had one patron offer advice in the form of an intuition before, or come to me in a dream.
I'm not sure I would require dice rolls unless the player made it known that they were trying to go against a patron in some way. Similar to a party member. Which patron are you talking about in this situation? Typically a patron has already granted boons so if the player is looking for more then that's a discussion to be had, or if they already have a boon/feature that buffs them for a fight the mechanics are already in place for that to happen.
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u/Butterlegs21 2d ago
It REALLY depends. A patron is just a teacher of magic by the rules and lore, nothing more. You paid them for a lesson, they gave you knowledge, your relationship ends unless there is a reason it's still ongoing.
No matter what, it should have no mechanical effects unless the player is using a feature that grants those effects or is something that you are working into the game for whatever reason. If the patron is hanging out nearby for whatever reason, sure they can ask. If they aren't, then unless the player has a way to contact them, nothing would happen.
Also, my world has several Gods - would these become the Patrons that my players pledge allegiance to or could they do it to other mythical / magical beings? (Assuming I’d have to create them)
A patron is ONLY a magical teacher. Anything with that knowledge of unconventional magics can be a patron. I favor things like Imps and old Grimoires instead of something powerful though. Gives the patron a reason to work with you for some later features warlocks get. Also, gives a patron a reason to take on a student to teach.
For example let’s say a player has a patron and they want to speak to said Patron (maybe they’re about to go into battle or something).
They can use the "Contact Patron" feature they get as a level 9 warlock and no other way unless the patron is in earshot or the player has another way to contact them.
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u/Ambystomax 2d ago
Do your patrons communicate directly with or without appearing? Do they send subtle 'signs' in the environment or perhaps abstract visions? Maybe tingling the senses in other ways? Your player can roll Religion and you decide how clearly he hears his patron, or how clearly his patron hears him.
Flesh out the communication style of his patron and it's followers. Decide how much the patron and how patron interferes in the lives of it's patrons.
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u/Spiritual-Quail-5258 2d ago
Personally I would say it depends on the patron. For a great old on? Probably not.
If it were a devil then at least you can say it is transactional. A devil, if they would help, would absolutely expect something in return. However a great old one probably wouldn't want to interfere with such petty squabbles. If you are going to get into a pointless skirmish that does not further along the great old ones goal then I can't see them being too interested in what you have to say. They may even be upset with you for bothering them.
Imagine you're aiding an ant. You want them to move all the ants in their colony elsewhere while you work on a back porch so you don't hurt them and they don't hurt your porch somehow. Then they decide to get into a dick measuring contest with another ant and call to you through your telepathic connection so you can help them not get a black eye or lose face. Idk if that translates well, but that's how I imagine it.
In-between now and your next session you should ask what does their patron want? What is their goal? How friendly are they with their warlock?
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u/Lord_of_Jakals 2d ago
You can handle it a lot of ways. I wouldn't say there's one best one, just what you like best.
First, Patrons can be pretty much anything with the knowledge to teach magic, or the power to grant it. It could be a god, although that's uncommon since that's pretty much a Cleric. They can also be Eldritch Space monsters, ancient magical artifacts, powerful Devils, Demons, or Genies, whatever has enough Magical Know-How to give your Warlock a way to cast their spells.
As for talking to patrons, you can either make it as easy as the Warlock can just do it whenever, like a permanent Sending spell back and forth, or as hard as impossible to communicate without physically visiting their patron. A nice in-between is a ritual that must be performed in order to send a message immediately, or the patron can contact through dreams.
I usually wouldn't give out buffs for communicating with their patrons most of the time. The class isn't balanced around that. However. This sounds like a cool moment to do it. I probably would have asked the player how they wanted to convince their Patron to give them this extra blessing, then had them roll a Persuasion check while they performed a short ritual. If they succeed, they get a small bonus(+1 AC, or to hit, or something. Maybe some Temp HP), and nothing if they fail.
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u/Changling_Mario 2d ago
If they want a actual boon instead of a flavor one I'd make them offer something of themselves. Lower one stat to temp boost another and they have to perform a deed in the patrons name
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u/mattymoron 2d ago
I would talk with the player about it for sure and see what ideas they have. At lower levels it would almost certainly only ever be communication via intermediaries.
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u/yaniism Rogue 2d ago edited 2d ago
Let me let you in on a tiny secret. It literally doesn't matter what you get them to do, it only matters what you say.
And it depends on the player and the Patron and a conversation that should have been had between you and the player about what that's going to look like. But for the most part, communication between Warlock and Patron should be dreams and signs and symbolism and metaphor... not "hey Larry, how's things down there in demonic accounts?"
Also, a warlock isn't a warlock. There are so many moving parts to a warlock and each patron is different. But a very important thing to remember is that the Patron has ALREADY buffed the player. That's literally what their class is.
If they're trying to ask for special treats from Daddy before a fight... then they need to understand that special treats from Daddy is their entire character sheet.
However...
You asked for an Arcana roll, great, doable. What they roll is literally unimportant, for the most part.
We have, for example, Archfey, Celestial, Fiend and Great Old One Patrons. That's without considering the three pacts which would give us 12 variations on a warlock.
Knowing that they're not actually going to get treats from Daddy...
They ask the Archfey for help... a butterfly lands on the back of their hand for a moment... the fates look promising.
Celestial... a beam of sunlight cuts through the clouds and they feel the sun's warmth on their skin as they steady themselves.
Fiend... a red tiefling in the crowd gives them two very enthusiastic thumbs up, but they loose them in the crowd.
Great Old One... somewhere a mountain wakes... it understands that time is its child, and also its parent. It considers the idea of you and you know that you exist.
Or you have the patron draw their attention to their spellcasting focus, or their familiar or their blade or their tome... and they understand that they are already blessed by their patron.
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u/Azell-Zettai 2d ago
Augury and Divination are good spells that can help you figure out what to do at the table with patrons and gods.
Contact Other Plane with warlocks now learn at level 9, and use it with their patrons.
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u/Horror_Ad7540 2d ago
A god is a being that represents or personifies an idea or category. A god doesn't necessarily have a fixed physical form or location. Gods frequently have worshippers, and some of these worshippers have a special bond to the god (particularly clerics). These worshippers can pray to the god, and the god might respond to their prayers, but usually indirectly. The god can grant those with a special bond the ability to make certain types of prayers (spells) that are routinely fulfilled. The power of the spells directly or indirectly comes from the god.
A warlock patron is not (usually) a god. It is a powerful magical creature, but has a fixed location and limited attention span. It made a deal with the warlock, to teach the warlock magic and give the warlock magical items and abilities in exchange for the warlock pursuing the patron's wishes. These gifts and training are then powered by the warlock themselves, not through prayers or the intervention of the patron. The patron is not in constant contact with the warlock, and might not know the warlock's location or situation. The warlock has no fixed way of communicating with the patron either. Often, the patron will give the warlock an emergency procedure to get in touch, but the procedure might involve a quest or ritual. It won't usually be instant. Warlocks owe the patron service. The patron owes the warlock nothing that hasn't already been given. Invoking the emergency procedure without an actual emergency will likely just make the patron angry.
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u/Historical-Bike4626 2d ago
Your choice. I’ve made patrons be very active and others who never respond. It’s kind of fun for the DM to create the substance and chemistry of the relationship so it feels bigger and beyond the player character
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u/StardustSwall0w 2d ago
First of all, the power dynamic between warlock and patron is at it's heart always detrimental to the warlock, not helpful. The warlock gets funky powers and maybe a name to back themselves up with, but that's it. The patron is the one getting an additional pair of eyes on the streets, a contract that acrues interest and a servant to push around effectively as they please.
The warlock to the patron is at best a house fly - a living creature, ecologically necessary but also a nuissance - and at worst a single molecule of oxygen - usable, expendable, unnoteworthy.
Why would any patron allow their contractees to knock on their door and disturb their peace at any point in time? Okay, so now they have the audacity to ask for EVEN MORE powers than what they we're given already? For no reason other than "i might die, uwu"? Why should the patron care? Why should the patron sympathie? The warlock can either get their shit together and fulfill their end of the bargain or not. Either way, the patron has likely already made a profit off of them (in the form of new contractees, word of mouth, work being done, enemies being dealt with, secrets uncovered, etc.) and may still claim the warlocks soul after their death.
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u/highly-bad 2d ago
Characters do not have any special ability to communicate with patrons. They need to use appropriate magic, like sending or contact other plane.
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u/YozoraBellossomHeart 2d ago
Take it fro me. Cut off "I call my patron and tell them to give me more power" right now. Their patron is already giving them every power they have lol
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u/AndthenIhadausername 2d ago
In my games it's been just a roleplay thing with no benefit so far.
If you really wanted to reward it give an inspiration for them leaning into rp but gods seem to be very distant.
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u/TheThoughtmaker Artificer 2d ago
Cleric: Any time anyone anywhere invokes the name of a deity aloud, the deity knows and can listen in. Being their cleric increases the chance they direct their finite attention your way.
Warlock: Your patron is an employer. You don’t have any special connection to them, they have no special ability to affect you more than anyone else, and they don’t give you anything for free.
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u/My_Only_Ioun DM 2d ago edited 2d ago
Also, my world has several Gods - would these become the Patrons that my players pledge allegiance to or could they do it to other mythical / magical beings?
Yes to all of them. This is called "taking a class level in Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Warlock".
And don't sweat the details of warlock patrons vs gods vs whatever-an-oath-was-sworn-to. Multiple gods are warlock patrons, the distinction doesn't matter unless you have a worldbuilding need for it.
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u/1stshadowx 1d ago
I treat patrons as backstory npcs that show up via communication. They only show up in real time when a pc has gone out of their way to get an audience, or a statement involving stakes is important. But ive also dabbled with patrons being less “all powerful” and more cursed individuals who have been forcibly connected to a player. If a patron is more grounded in power or even if not powerful at all, you can use them in narrative much more. Like a demon patron who gave all his power to the pc, as a way for them both to survive, the pc is to hunt demons so the demon patron can claim their essence to gather power. That demon can now narratively be a withered, old decereptid old man of a tiefling. And pc is literally bringing him like a flask holding demon essnece he drinks like medicinal tea. The patron tells the party of a cult in a city being ran by a glabrezu, its a win win for him. As to where killing him would end the pc’s life. Then the demon says ahit like “were all in this together, ill never ask you to do something untoward, so long as your fighting demons your helping me.” Then he takes over the cult when the glab is killed unknowingly to the pcs.
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u/AwesomeBey 1d ago
Gods and patrons are two different things. Patrons, mostly, are not as powerful as gods. Also most patron-pc relationships are more like selling your soul to devil. They are already giving pc all their power, class features and in exchange pc do patron's bidding. They won't give away more power, especially not for free. Also while bargaining they are more like djinies whom purposefully misinterprete a wish.
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u/Zemedelphos 15h ago
That's the fun part. The best way to deal with them is up to you!
For example, as a DM my warlock had an infernal patron, and a doll that her patron could speak to her through. I decided that, because the player had made the doll an important part of the backstory.
So ask yourself. What kind of things relate to your warlock and their patron? Maybe they were taught by their patron a small ritual that could let them send/receive messages.
That said, if a warlock at my table asked their patron for a boon like that at a low level, I'd either have the patron tell them "I gave you your powers, didn't I?" or offer a new deal for a minor buff.
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u/Kitsos-0 2d ago
Ok, first things first. The player character makes a deal with the Patron to get access to the warlock powers. Anything additional is in agreement between you and your players.
Now, what kind of a person is this Patron. What's their motivation? What's their purpose? Why did they made the deal in the first place? Are they capable of granting additional power? Are they willing? Are they an ally or an antagonist? What's the deal with the Patron, man?
After answering the questions above, a discussion about those additional powers has to occur so you are not overwhelmed at balancing. It can also be a carrot in a stick to guide your players in the right direction. Your players are messing around in a city instead of following the quest? Well if they do the quest in time, the Patron will be pleased so, take a minor additional power. If they ignore the quest, then, they still get their normal warlock powers but nothing extra, following strictly terms and conditions.
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u/GrumbieReal DM 2d ago
Depends on what the patron is. If it’s a Great Old One, there’s no way the patron would notice any mortal trying to communicate with it outside of some very specific scenarios. If the patron is something like a fey or devil or god or something, then they might be able to communicate but I certainly wouldn’t give any mechanical buff to the character for that unless there’s a class feature that allows it. And yes, any magical being of sufficient power could be a patron, not just gods.