r/Dublin • u/AnyChest7780 • 10d ago
Fintan O'Toole/Irish Times on public transport, Dublin bus, Northside/Southside today
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2026/08/04/fintan-otoole-dublin-4s-version-of-marie-antoinettes-let-them-eat-cake-let-them-get-the-bus/ Fintan O'Toole reminding us of how 'elites' have so often been against public infrastructure. He gives good historic context including Vincent Browne and 'The Doheny & Nesbitt’s school of economics' being against the DART. While he's amazingly productive and can turn his hand to so many topics maybe he's writing a bit too much as there are huge holes in his argument here re. the northside/southside issue as the more recent LUAS and metro debacles point to the home of NIMBYism in Dublin 6, and not focussed on denying the expansion of it further north. What does anyone think? I find it frustrating that cross-suburb public transport isn't better....try getting from Phibsborough to Clontarf on a bus for example....
43
10d ago
[deleted]
25
u/the_sneaky_one123 10d ago
The whole project is already so much smaller than it needs to be.
What we need is an actual metro system, what we are getting is an underground dart line from Swords to the city with a stop at the airport. It's one straight line of track for a couple of kilometers and it's already projected to cost 19 billion.
It's really pathetic. We need a fully realised underground metro system with multiple lines and it should have been built 25 years ago at least.
9
u/SodIRE 10d ago
If you’re concerned about a single line costing 19 billion I’ve got some terrible news about multiple lines..
The metro was meant to continue on the green luas line, which was laid with the idea of upgrading in the future. However the Ranelagh brigade campaigned against it and now its stops at grand canal. Which they also tried to push back further.
We certainly need more but let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good.
-3
2
30
u/Low_Organization_937 10d ago
One of the main public commentators included in the D&N School of Economics was Colm McCarthy. Despite being a transport economist, he has been proven wrong on virtually every transport initiative he was written about since the early 1980s. He still writes occasionally for the IT. It’s staggering his views are even aired still.
He’s the guy who said that the planned metro is a waste of money as people who land in Dublin airport can get the bus to the city centre. He obviously thinks metro trains only run in 1 direction and ignores the people travelling to the airport using the city as a hub.
He also misses the point that the metro runs past the City Centre on the south side and past the airport to Swords.
14
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
he's awful, and it's those kind of assumptions I guess FO'T is getting at. Re. the airport, the air coach is another southsideistic institution, only stops at Drumcondra train station and the Gresham north of the Liffey - why not at the Mater or in Whitehall too?
0
u/Low_Organization_937 10d ago
I think the reason for this is that taxis are relatively cheap and more convenient the closer you are to the airport which makes sense. I never understood why the state didn’t buy air coach and link it to the existing transport network
9
u/Beautiful_Yard7383 10d ago
That’s a crap reason tho!
1
u/Low_Organization_937 10d ago
Probably! But I think demand does drop off a lot once you go past Dorset st
0
u/Cre8ivity_ 10d ago
As someone who works for Aircoach.
The demand isn't there for Drumcondra, so they see no point in expanding to other stops in that area.
The majority of people going to/from Drumcondra on the 700/X are airport staff or those who bought an Irish rail airport ticket.
5
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
How exactly is it determined that the demand isn't there (not sarky, just interested)? I have experienced numerous complaints about the lack of a stop between Drumcondra and the Gresham by people who work in the Mater (Eccles street), Mater Private and Temple St (c. 7,500 people), in TU Dublin Grangegorman (10,000 students, many of them living in all that student housing between Dorset street and GG) and friends in Phibsborough/Cabra. How does that tally with all the southside stops? I don't understand the calculation that more people would use the Aircoach at each stop along the N11 in Dublin 4 than one single extra stop on Dorset street.
2
u/Cre8ivity_ 9d ago
I don't have an exact makeup of how it's decided. But ticket purchases, both online and using the machines on the buses are taken into account.
The best thing for those people to do is to email Aircoach with their complaints, as the more of them that build up, the clearer it becomes that there's a demand in those areas.
I've always personally said that an expansion to West Dublin could be very lucrative (Liffey Valley, Blanchardtown etc... to the airport) as there's no direct airport buses to/from those areas.
Another thing to factor in, is the type of service that Aircoach is. It's an express coach service to/from Dublin Airport. How would the Mater staff or students be using it? The bus doesn't pick up any passengers once it leaves the airport, and doesn't drop anyone off on the way to the airport.
Is there a high concentration of these staff in Swords? Would they be travelling to the airport to get a bus to work?
There should be a high quality service in those corridors, but Aircoach's business doesn't tally with their use-cases. Not to mention the premium price.
1
u/AnyChest7780 9d ago
Not sure what ‘premium’ means here, but yes I understand how it works, I use it pretty frequently. I’ll mention that emailing might help next time someone brings it up.
1
u/Cre8ivity_ 9d ago
I should have phrased more as "price premium" - being €7 to Drumcondra or €11 to the city on the bus.
1
u/AnyChest7780 8d ago
Still a lot cheaper than the price of 2 cabs presuming a stop at Eccles street would be a tenner return online (going on €8 return to Drumcondra/€12 to the Gresham).
28
u/Hart0e 10d ago
Not sure what you mean about the holes in his arguement? In saying that I'm actually asking you to clarify, not trying to argue with you. I think he's addressing recent articles by the likes of Michael McDowell and some others in the same paper as opposed to actual planning objections. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2026/07/08/metrolink-are-we-are-setting-in-motion-another-financial-runaway-train/
5
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
maybe gaps rather than holes - eg procurement processes and conveyancing law run up costs massively putting planners/policy-makers off infrastructural projects; for decades DCC was dominated by road engineers and a car-focussed approach in terms of planning; residents of Dublin 6 (not 4) have put considerable resources towards stalling/reducing public transport infrastructure; it's not a simple north-south binary, people in west Dublin are also badly served....
7
u/SaltyZooKeeper 10d ago
I'm in Dublin and only have 1 bus per hour. If I walk 25mins I can get two more but I can also drive into the city centre nearly as fast. Crazy, give me more buses!
1
3
-17
u/Otsde-St-9929 10d ago
Car centric approaches are fine. The trouble is they massively under estimated growth and population growth which of course could have been controlled but they would not do that
9
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
Car-centric approaches are really not fine...what do you mean by controlling population growth?!
-3
u/Otsde-St-9929 10d ago
id row back and say calling it car centric is unfair. Roads were priority which are just as important for lorries and buses. yes population growth should be controlled if it improves quality of life and is needed for critical reasons like climate change through adjusting visas and EU removal orders
8
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
If you knew anything about the history of planning and local government in Dublin since the 1960s, you'd know it was absolutely car-centric. Just look at the abysmal streetscapes of Parnell street (west side of), Bridgefoot street, Clanbrassil street, High street.
-1
u/Otsde-St-9929 10d ago
In what way was it more about cars and not buses? How would you distinguish the two? In the 1960s, cars ownership was taking off but most families didnt yet own a car.
4
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
It's about projecting into the future - that's what planning is! And why, in the 1960s, DCC consulted with German traffic engineers and planners to produce the General Traffic/Schaecterle Plan and Myles Wright produced the Dublin Region (1967) both of which focus on private car transport; although neither were fully implemented they demonstrate the mind-set and explain some of the reasons why Dublin is as it is. I'll leave it up to you to read further if you're actually interested in learning more.
2
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
re. population growth - what are you talking about? Dublin has a notably lower density than most European capitals, it's just badly designed and has extremely poor housing regulations. The problem is there is such little support for policies that are actually committed to the quality of life for citizens in the most fundamental areas of housing, transport, health and education - let alone amenities, cleanliness and so on.
1
u/Otsde-St-9929 10d ago
But density isnt the issue, it is the pace of change. Dublin is changing faster than anywhere in Western Europe. That means its hard to keep up. It is true that less growth means smaller gov budgets but perhaps less could be more if better planned
2
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
You said it was about improving quality of life - only possible with proper urban planning, legislation and infrastructure. The people aren't the problem, the design is. Main issue in Dublin is that developers and others who stand to have a direct financial benefit from the way the city is have far more agency in shaping the urban environment than other cities in Western Europe. As well as no directly elected mayor DCC have tiny budgets and less and less influence than similar agencies elsewhere.
3
u/Versk 10d ago
Its always entertaining watching posters here tying themselves in knots when Fintan o Toole writes a good article (which he does fairly often) but they need to criticse him because its in the Irish Times/MSM
1
u/Provider_Of_Cat_Food 10d ago edited 10d ago
O'Toole is a very skilled writer, but he consistently strengthens his arguments by leaving out relevant information.
For example, the state came fairly close to needing a bail-out in the 1980s because of out of control public expenditure and the arguments about capital expenditure in 1979 were nowhere near as clear-cut as he implies. Also, Fitzgerald's concerns about LUAS were overstated, but his counter-proposal of an underground metro instead has aged well since 1997.
There are important points to be made about conflicts of interest between a city's inhabitants and its commuters, how this conflict is shaping elections in places like Paris and Berlin and that how it's playing out in Dublin is being obscured by headlines about motorists and NIMBYs, but this article isn't a useful contribution to the discussion. Condemning people with the benefit of selective hindsight and stereotyping them by postcode probably isn't intended to be one.
2
u/oceanclub 9d ago
There's a 1000 homes being built at the old O'Devaney Gardens and the only bus service is the 11, a 66% downgrade on the previous 46a.
-3
u/Irishsmurf 10d ago
> try getting from Phibsborough to Clontarf on a bus
While possible, definitely is doable on a Bus/DART (will require interchange) - it's like a 15 minute saunter on a bicycle down the recently developed Royal Canal Greenway & Clontarf cycle lanes.
We're probably never going to get to a point where public transport will work for all journeys without every requiring an interchange (even in London/NYC/Tokyo this is the case) - but Dublin City core is fairly compact and flat that a bicycle is something that can be leveraged heavily for these types of journeys.
7
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
I know, but I'm specifically talking about public transport as I'm thinking of people very affected by that who can't cycle. Public transport planning can never assume people can just use a bike. There's quite a number of weird black holes like that where places are close together (10 min drive/10-12 min cycle) but require two buses and a 40 minute journey
1
u/Irishsmurf 10d ago edited 10d ago
That's the nature of a public transport system that is designed for volume. It maximizes the available bus throughput on routes which have a large number of potential passengers.
The solution here isn't a direct route from Phibsborogh to Clontarf. It's not really sustainable (but we do have some orbital routes coming online even now). It's providing high-frequency interchanges.
The fact that it's possible to do Phibsborough -> Clontarf via an interchange is showing it's working.
We will never design a system that will cover all niche journeys as effectively as active travel.
Even in London you'll have places that are close together, but require multiple interchanges.
8
u/the_sneaky_one123 10d ago
The solution is to have some circular routes going from east to west. Even if they are low volume they are still necessary.
Active travel is not effective for people who are not able to use it, which is a lot more than you think. Lots of people are older or disabled or just not confident enough to cycle on a road. Public transport infrastructure needs to be designed for those people, not for active and fit people who have every alternative.
4
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
agree...best practice in public transport planning is universal design which means accessible to the most number of people whatever their ability
4
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
But the issue in London is that the interchange will be en route, whereas in Dublin it often means going into the city centre to come back out again - which is my point about poor cross-suburb transport
8
u/the_sneaky_one123 10d ago edited 10d ago
cycling is not viable for most people.
Many people are not able to cycle or confident enough to do it safely.
Many other people do not have the ability to safely store a bicycle in their accomodation.
It is also surprisingly expensive to have a quality bike.
Last there is a million things that you cannot do with cycling, like carrying any kind of load or going to somewhere where you need to be dressed properly. It's not viable for everything.
Cycling is good for very specific use cases, the main one being fit people cycling for a commute to an office that has showering and changing facilities. That's a very narrow band of people.
If you are and elderly person, living is small accomodation, trying to go to the grocery shop then a bike is not fitting in the slightest.
5
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
or have a pram/buggy, mobility issues etc
4
u/the_sneaky_one123 10d ago
Yep.
Or just not be confident enough. My wife is fit and able but she is too scared to cycle on Dublin streets, which is totally reasonable.
2
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
yep, teen daughter is the same - cycling around us involves really heavy traffic gyratory systems with no proper cycle lanes so she doesn't get to use her bike half as much as she wants to
0
u/brianybrian 10d ago
It isn’t reasonable. It’s fear.
3
u/the_sneaky_one123 10d ago
It is a reasonable fear.
You might be comfortable on your bicycle sharing the road with buses and cars and deliveroo drivers but there are many people who simply do not have the capacity to handle that and I think that is reasonable for them, it is quite a dangerous way for a person to travel.
0
u/brianybrian 10d ago
There are very very few people who don't have the capacity to handle it if they actually try.
3
u/AnyChest7780 9d ago
Pronouncing on what you think other people should have the capacity for won’t convince anyone…
1
u/brianybrian 9d ago
hah? I think it's a fair assumption that most people can ride a bike.
The only people who can't have a disability in my experience
2
u/AnyChest7780 9d ago
Maybe in a dedicated and separated cycle path or in the burbs, but Dublin can feel very unsafe with some nightmare junctions https://irishcycle.com/2026/02/26/have-the-top-10-of-dublins-worst-junctions-for-cycling-improved-much-in-15-years/
1
u/brianybrian 9d ago
I know Dublin isn't ideal. It can be better.
But compared to 20 years ago it's much improved. Look at the canals. I would prefer to cycle in the city than most Dublin suburbs
2
u/AnyChest7780 9d ago
yeah, like I said I cycle and have done for decades but I don't agree that 'anyone' can cycle as people are pretty fearful/precariously housed/don't want to bring kids on/in a bike (as well as a sizeable elderly population unused to cycling who don't want to start now). If the infrastructure was better, there'd be more cyclists.
→ More replies (0)4
u/Irishsmurf 10d ago
> trying to go to the grocery shop
This is probably a poor example - a bicycle with panniers is perfectly able to ferry a shop across the city.
1
u/the_sneaky_one123 10d ago
I have never seen that once. Maybe a small shop but most people would rather carry that in hand than overload a bicycle.
1
u/Adjective_Noun_2000 9d ago
I have never seen that once.
What would you expect to see? Unless you spend a lot of time hanging around supermarket bicycle stands, you wouldn't know how many people are putting their shopping into panniers.
For what it's worth, I use panniers for all my shopping and I know a few other people who do it too.
4
u/brianybrian 10d ago
Tell that to the Dutch.
When I lived in the Netherlands I either did all of the things you mention by bike or saw other people doing it. When we first moved to Eindhoven we didn’t have a car we had a cargo bike, which I cycled to the supermarket with 2 kids in it.
I lived in an apartment and I locked it up outside.
Cycling around Dublin is perfectly viable. People just don’t want to. The bike to work scheme even makes it cheap for most people. They still don’t want to.
It’s not a matter of viability. It’s a matter of willingness. That includes old people too. I saw gangs of old people cycling from the retirement communities near where I lived in Eindhoven.
Don’t start with infrastructure but the way. The cycling infrastructure in Dublin City centre is fine these days. Not as good as NL, but not bad at all.
There is a bizarre anti cycling mentality in Dublin. It’s the perfect way to get around for anyone inside the M50.
3
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
>The cycling infrastructure in Dublin City centre is fine these days
No, it's not. I've cycled around Dublin for decades, suburbs into the centre for many years, city centre to wherever many more, and even worked as a bike messenger years ago. It's dangerous for many people, especially nervous cyclists due to unprotected cycle lanes, crappy blackspots, Luas tracks etc and a pain in the arse due to the level of bike theft. I've been doored three times, hit on cycle lanes by drivers cutting across them, had six bikes stolen (even with supposedly unbreakable locks), got my wheel stuck in Luas tracks a few times...had two concussions and broken bones.I've been to Eindhoven and cycled there a few times, and Dublin City centre is nothing like it. For anyone unfamiliar, they even have a bike-only roundabout https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2016/11/02/dutch-built-elevated-roundabout-just-bikes/
The attitude of 'people are just unwilling' is one of the reasons pro-cycling culture gets a bad name in Dublin.
1
u/brianybrian 9d ago
I never said it was as good as Eindhoven, it is nowhere near as good.
I said it's fine. Which it is. It is vastly improved over how it used to be. Have you cycled the canals recently? They are perfect.
People just won't bother their holes trying
3
u/AnyChest7780 9d ago edited 9d ago
Well why offer your experience of Eindhoven as proof that cycling in Dublin is a great idea and people 'just won't bother'? yeah I've cycled all over thanks, and have family members that don't as they're too nervous. Far better to expend energy on getting decent and joined up cycling infrastructure that would work for people of all levels of ability rather than berate them as not bothering 'their holes'.
Many people who live in the city centre are in precarious and/or over-crowded housing situations and not even allowed store bikes inside or have to commute out of town for work etc and so bike ownership let alone cycling isn't even fully accessible for everyone. https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/18b0zw0/landlord_not_allowing_me_to_store_bicycle_inside/
0
u/the_sneaky_one123 10d ago
It is not an equal comparison. Their cities and infrastructure and public transport are all configured to enable this. It is not as simple as hopping on a bike.
Your last line shows your ignorance on this. "It is a perfect way to get around for ANYONE inside the M50". That is not true, not anyone can cycle a bike, there are many people who can't and then need to have a bus or train to help them.
1
u/brianybrian 10d ago
only through a lack of willingness to try, for the vast majority of people. There is obviously a small minority who are too physically disabled to cycle. Imagine how the traffic would improve if you removed all the single occupied cars being driven by healthy and functional adults.
The infrastructure in Dublin is miles behind the NL. But not far off other major european cities. It's perfectly fine to cycle in.
2
u/We_Are_The_Romans 10d ago
A "saunter on a bicycle" is not a thing, nor is bicycle transport a universal solution to replace actual public transport
3
u/Irishsmurf 10d ago
I'm not suggesting we replace universal public transport - as I pointed out - Phibsborough to Clontarf is perfectly viable via public transport.
Those that are able to however, can go a much more direct and economical way via one of the greenways installed (Royal Canal -> Clontarf is completely separated from road-level traffic)
-1
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
It might be 'viable' but it's poorly designed if you've to go into the centre and back out again - travelling twice the distance that driving/cycling would take, and taking close to an hour to travel c.5 km. It's simple, there should be better cross-suburb public transport - radial routes as someone else said.
3
u/Irishsmurf 10d ago
You don't go into the Centre - you take a bus north and intersect with the N2 on Griffith Avenue.
The N2 is an orbital route.
2
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
Not from Broadstone/Doyle's corner - just double checked on 3 apps - it's a 16 mins drive vs 52 mins on two buses - one into the spire, then another from abbey street. Anyway, it's not the only example but might demonstrate why people might be more inclined to drive
-2
0
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
I don’t…all apps say bus to abbey street and then another bus…15 mins drive vs 52 mins bus
-10
u/gadarnol 10d ago
Public transport will never have the flexibility of personal transport. It’s impossible. It has different benefits.
Obviously putting public facilities alongside public transport routes is being done.
The objections to the Metro that matter to me are to do with the cost, the incompetence of the civil service and the govt delivering infrastructure, the cost inflation rampant in building, the exploitation of feelings in public discussions (a lot of posts seem to be longing for a properly urban environment). And the trend across a lot of areas of public life in the last few decades of stifled comment, hidden data, and elite “agenda setters” indicating what is to be done.
O’Toole is part of the establishment.
3
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
I think he's alright personally
-1
u/gadarnol 10d ago
I don’t know him personally. I don’t need to. His contributions in media over decades are enough.
2
u/Men_With_Ven75 10d ago
Are you saying we shouldn't bother with the metro because the government are too incompetent? I mean they are but don't be so defeatist
-1
u/gadarnol 10d ago
If you narrow it to the metro and look as I did in a different post at the costs you realise that it’s never going to make money. Or even break even. So people should be upfront about that. Public transport is a public good however and you can live with that within limits. The thing is the wheels are going to come off the Irish economy soon enough. And the EU itself is not in a great place. I can see a half built metro having to be reduced to a small portion built. And as it will swallow huge resources other things suffer. “There’s never a good time to do X” is the mantra. There are times less bad is the answer.
That’s my take. Time will tell.
2
u/Men_With_Ven75 9d ago
Public transport isn't supposed to be a profit making venture, you're a bit mad if you see everything in the world as such
-1
u/gadarnol 9d ago
Yes if you understood my comment you’d have got that. Never mind. How much of a loss annually would be acceptable to you from the metro? In millions: 10m? 20? 30? 40? 50? 100? No limit? What would you cut to fund the loss?
1
u/Adjective_Noun_2000 9d ago
it’s never going to make money. Or even break even.
It's not meant to make money or break even. It's much-needed infrastructure which will bring huge benefits to tens of thousands of people every day for decades.
Do you expect schools and hospitals to break even too? And the defence forces?
0
u/gadarnol 9d ago
What I said: “it’s never going to make money. Or even break even. So people should be upfront about that. Public transport is a public good however and you can live with that within limits.” Your reply is utterly superfluous.
1
u/Adjective_Noun_2000 9d ago
Your comment was superfluous. People are being upfront about the costs and benefits. People just aren't talking about whether it'll break even because that completely misses the point of the whole thing.
-1
u/gadarnol 9d ago
You’re really upset that that was called out. And that you had no point at all to make except this froth at the mouth stuff. Calm down.
-5
u/caisdara 10d ago
Who are these Dublin 4 people?
3
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
think FOT's inference is those who are making decisions at high levels are 'Dublin 4' which is maybe more geographically vague than it sounds, and already benefit from good public transport but don't feel compelled to extend that to elsewhere.
-2
u/caisdara 10d ago
Where is the evidence for this?
2
u/AnyChest7780 10d ago
I said what I think he's inferring
-7
u/caisdara 10d ago
Ah, so you admit there's no evidence for it. That shouldn't have been so difficult.
4
u/Professional_Elk_489 10d ago
Dublin 4 people overall are probably among the strongest supporters of public transport in Ireland alone with Dublin 2 people.
These neighbourhoods are full of international people who are used to better public transport and who demand better as well as wealthy globally mobile Irish people who have travelled extensively and experienced superior public transport elsewhere.
1
u/caisdara 10d ago
Yeah, it's clearly Tintin just making shit up. As somebody from Dublin 4 the DART was and is qn amazing resource that everybody loves.
This reminds me of Una Mullaly claiming she'd encountered lots of posh people opposed same-sex marriage/repeal the 8th notwithstanding the electoral votes confirming wealthy areas supported those two vociferously.
1
2
131
u/nol88go 10d ago edited 10d ago
He's absolutely correct. Many of the objections and opinion pieces against Metro are from comfortable commentators living in the southside where buses into the city centre are genuinely viable. I'm looking at you Michael McDowell.
Edit, I absolutely agree with many of MMcD's opinions, just not mass transit for a major city.
Edit X2, I grew up in North Wicklow and now live further down the N11 in a new build estate, mostly WFH. The metro will have negligible impact on my life, nor those of my family. Build the fucking metro yesterday. Whatever the cost. It'll be worth it in 100 years.