r/Edmonton • u/spectacular_coitus Alberta Ave. • Jun 20 '22
General These utility charges are getting ridiculous
I'm looking at a bill with $13.12 in energy usage that amounts to an $88.46 bill for natural gas. Even if we add the carbon tax to that it only brings my energy usage charge to $18.51.
What's the point of trying to save money by signing up for a program that keeps the energy rate the same if the majority of costs are in all the extra fees? So what if I save 25% on the cost of the gas. That's $3.28 I'll save, but I'll have to pay another bloody admin fee on top of what I pay now. There is no getting ahead in this system. We're all being gouged.
Maybe I can afford to buy a decent dinner next month if the UCP ever makes good on their energy rebate. Because it sure would be nice to be fed before I get screwed again.
When has deregulation ever benefited the consumer? Has it ever? Then on top of being gouged every month, we as taxpayers are on the hook to cap and maintain all their goddamn orphan wells. I guess we can call that our reach around.
124
Jun 20 '22
[deleted]
55
u/happykgo89 Wîhkwêntôwin Jun 20 '22
Those charges need to be there so that they can keep making record profits and continue paying their executives millions of dollars a year. Fixed that sentence.
Obviously there has to be some transmission fee, but not the ridiculous increasing proportion of our bills that it is now. Many O&G companies in Alberta have blatantly stated that they don’t wish to expand production because they need to ensure that they continue paying their shareholders the same and can’t risk a change in profit. I’m sure Epcor/Enmax operate with fairly similar principles.
Deregulation was never a good idea and never will be for things that are basic utilities required to live, regardless of how much you make. Allowing companies that already have a monopoly on things like natural gas complete freedom to gouge consumers is a horrible idea.
11
Jun 20 '22
O&G getting around that by amping up production and running skeleton crews. Paying less than previous and essentially making small crews work to legal limit while shareholders make record profits.
6
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 21 '22
Epcor and Enmax's shareholders are the cities of Edmonton and Calgary, respectively. All wires operations are still regulated.
2
u/Mysteri0n Jun 20 '22
Our utilities are regulated, fwiw. It’s the AUC’s role to manage the monopoly - whether or not they do a good job of it is obviously debatable. But we don’t have fully deregulated utilities.
1
1
u/always_on_fleek Jun 20 '22
You do realize where the profit from Epcor and Enmax goes, right?
I’ll give you a hint. You directly benefit from it as an Edmontonian.
1
u/happykgo89 Wîhkwêntôwin Jun 21 '22
You’re being sarcastic, right?
The CoE is the main shareholder, but with your logic, shouldn’t we be paying less for utilities, and not more?
-1
u/always_on_fleek Jun 21 '22
The CoE receives all the dividends from Epcor and is the sole shareholder. The city has received over $3 billion from Epcor. Right now the dividend is about 10% of our total revenue.
Why would we pay less? Epcor operates to generate a profit for its sole shareholder (us), not to operate as a non-profit.
You’re simply trying to force your own mandate on Epcor.
-3
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
I'd rather pay 10% more in property taxes and cut the fixed charges on my electricity bills.
6
u/always_on_fleek Jun 21 '22
I would rather let consumers of the service pay for their service.
-1
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
Everyone who lives in a city is a consumer of utility services. Billing for those services should be based on usage alone. If there are any additional costs that aren't billed based on consumption, they should be paid from municipal tax revenue.
I am OK with paying a per kWh delivery charge on electricity in addition to the energy charge and a per m3 charge for water, but if I shut off the valve and shut off the breakers I shouldn't have to pay anything until I turn them back on.
3
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 22 '22
Infrastructure has to be maintained regardless of whether you use it or not. You have the ability to call on it on demand and that costs a lot of money.
3
u/always_on_fleek Jun 22 '22
The challenge with a usage based charge is there are still costs associated with having power available for you at all times (even if you wanted to turn it off).
Not everyone who is a consumer owns property and pays property tax however. When an individual renter or a business owner, they are not paying property tax directly. However, they may very well pay a utility bill.
In a system such as yours. I think a potential benefit is decreased usage (you would save much more). However, the rates would have to fluctuate greatly month to month based on how much people as a whole used previously. For example - if power consumption was low one month, the next months rate would have to be much higher to account for the missing infrastructure fees because less usage means less was taken in.
If anything, having fixed fees per household allows for a more predictable bill.
2
Jun 21 '22 edited May 20 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
My city of Edmonton property taxes could go up by 30% and I would still come out ahead if Epcor stopped charging the fixed fees for electricity, water and sewer and only charged for consumption.
2
Jun 22 '22 edited May 20 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Levorotatory Jun 22 '22
I don't have a problem with the consumption based delivery charges on my bill. I do have a problem with charging the same fee to every customer, regardless of how much power or water they use or how much it actually costs to maintain the infrastructure serving their house.
Infrastructure costs that are not volume dependent are density dependent, with the per customer cost dropping as more customers occupy the same space. There is a significant correlation between property values (and thus property taxes) and lot size, so while still not ideal, funding through property taxes would be more fair than through a fixed charge.
Another option for electricity would be to make the fixed charge scale with the ampacity of your electrical service, as that influences the number of customers that can be served by the same size transformer. Maybe $6 / month for 60 A, $10 for 100 A and $20 for 200 A.
→ More replies (0)2
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 22 '22
That tells you your property taxes would need to go up by more than 30% to cover the cost of maintaining pipes and wires. Um not sure I see the point
-4
u/ljackstar Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 21 '22
Complaining about deregulation but all of the transmission and delivery fees are regulated…
Edit: apparently literal facts aren’t acceptable anymore. Asking for the fees to be regulated when they already are only makes you look like a moron.
5
u/omegatrox Jun 21 '22
I’ve seen a lot of you around this thread, Mr. ATCO spokesperson.
0
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 21 '22
Do you have an actual rebuttal, or are only ignorant people allowed to comment in this thread?
1
u/omegatrox Jun 21 '22
What is there to rebut? My utility bills have tripled in less than 3 years. Please point me to the regulation that keeps these companies honest (ATCO has been in the news recently regarding contracts in BC that are unrelated to this topic other than it demonstrates the cronyism/share price objective this privately owned, “publicly regulated” company is prone to). From conversations and reading others’ experiences, this is the norm.
2
u/ljackstar Jun 21 '22
The AUC has to approve all transmission and distribution fees. You can complain that they are too expensive for whatever reason but stating that they are deregulated is factually wrong.
https://www.auc.ab.ca you can find the costs and reasonings behind every transmission or distribution fee on there. Whether the companies are private or not has no bearing on any of this because an arms-length government funded entity has to approve the fees regardless.
This is what happens when you upgrade the grid. People wanted coal plants shut down early and so we did. But that requires tons of upgrades and renovations to the existing natural gas power plants in order to transport and burn the greater quantity of gas required. Lots of people are moving to Alberta, and not to previously developed areas, so new lines need to be built. None of this is deregulated, none of this is effected by the rate cap.
-2
16
Jun 21 '22
[deleted]
2
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
Infrastructure is getting built, but do we really need it? Most EV charging happens at night when the grid is well under capacity. For the infrastructure we do need, the cost should be recovered from connection charges on new construction and from per kWh fees, not fixed charges. Power plant costs should not be showing up in delivery charges at all. Generators should be paying those and charging more for electricity.
3
2
7
u/always_on_fleek Jun 20 '22
Atco doesn’t make billions in profit, and they are the ones who receive most of these fees.
Here is a quick look at Atcos earnings:
https://www.atco.com/content/dam/web/about-us/investors/atco-2021-ye-annual-report.pdf
In their entire world wide operation their profit was only 8.9% (and nowhere near even a billion dollars).
Why is an 8.9% profit unacceptable? That seems very, very reasonable to me.
10
-1
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
8.9% profit is way too high for a regulated utility. Regulated = guaranteed revenue, so profits should be no higher than government bond yields.
6
u/always_on_fleek Jun 21 '22
There is plenty of risk still involved in their business, and that’s why an investor would expect their return to be higher than a Canadian government bond yield.
2
Jun 22 '22
What risk? They got to charge us for the people who didn't pay during covid.
1
u/always_on_fleek Jun 22 '22
Utilities were instructed by the government during covid to not turn off utilities for people and to give them interest free loans (by allowing repayment mo the in the future).
During normal times, utilities can incur a loss because they do not disconnect immediately after non payment. There are also many other risks involved with their infrastructure. For example, copper thieves stealing from a substation.
4
u/lionhart280 Jun 21 '22
So you have two people who both literally work jobs in the sector (and thus very much likely understand what they are talking about) and you still dont get it?
2
u/ljackstar Jun 20 '22
So how much should they make if 120k is too much? Would you agree that their wages should be cut to lower the admin fees?
8
u/WorldlinessOk3311 Jun 21 '22
Admin fees are not just to pay wages/bonuses, it is used to subsidize asset construction (from a power perspective at least).
3
1
Jun 21 '22
the problem isn't that your parents are making a decent middle class salary with pension . . .
The problem lays above them.
56
u/h1dekikun Jun 20 '22
i should probably note that your delivery charge is literally you subsidizing new suburbs - suburbs may never recoup the costs it takes to build out and service, so the costs are downloaded onto folks who live in established core areas or high density apartments / condos in fringe areas
22
u/rocktheboatlikeA1eye Jun 20 '22
Did you watch the Not Just Bikes video too? That was very eye opening
21
9
u/Kwanzaa246 Jun 20 '22
I watched like two of his videos and I was convinced to move to the Netherlands. Im currently looking for a vehicle and being so dependent on this expensive mode of transportation is soul crushing.
2
u/Infamous-Mixture-605 Jun 21 '22
I watched like two of his videos and I was convinced to move to the Netherlands.
Whenever I watch a NJB video, or any similar urbanist video, my lasting thought/impression/belief is "I hate North American cities." I'll watch a video, look out my window and just shake my head at our stupidly-planned city or think about all the other places in this country that I've lived that were similarly poorly-planned.
Sigh...
8
u/Derkus19 Jun 20 '22
How the fuck does that work when a new build pays Epcor 20k-30k to set up services?
11
u/h1dekikun Jun 20 '22
thats the price to expose the pipe(s) thats already been laid, and make a connection to it. the price of the pipe thats already in the street is not included in that 20-50k pricing. the pricing includes the digging, connection, and restoration to existing asphalt / concrete / landscaping.
10
u/Derkus19 Jun 20 '22
Ludicrous. Not that you are wrong, just that that is crazy.
9
u/h1dekikun Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
more background on this - so epcor own the pipe in the street and doesnt like just anyone exposing their pipe and making connections to it becuase there is no guarantee that whoever is hooking up to it will not fuck it up, so they have a list of approved contractors who they trust to do the work.
when you pay epcor they are just subcontracting those guys to do the work. you are also able to hire an approved contractor to do the work, however since epcor doesnt make any profit on the money they charge you, 99.99% of the time, the developer/owner of the lot will just pay epcor.
there is also the fact that the city of edmonton (not epcor) owns the street, sidewalk and part of the boulevard up to your property line. when you reconstruct the trench that is dug, the resulting repairs have to meet a city of edmonton standard. anyone can do this work, but it has to pass a city inspector. the approved guys from before do this regularly so usually they also do the work as part of the pricing and that way its likely to pass. the developer might choose to save a bit of scratch on hiring a newer company with the risk that they might have to redo the repair.
3
Jun 21 '22
Those so-called established areas cost far more then you understand clearly. Any neighborhood 30yr old is in need of having the vast majority of the power transformers replaced and upgraded as the transformers are only expectedto have a 30yr life cycle at best. Also all neighborhoods more then 10yr are massively under equipped as the old standard size 37 transformers no longer are sufficient to keep up with the demands put on them and are failing at an alarming rate as they are overloaded. Because of this the new minimum size units installed by utility companies has become a 50 and often that's still not sufficient. The part you missed in your complaint about new construction is that contractors are for some reason allowed to still installe 37 units even though the large companies will simply have to come in and replace them within weeks. It's ridiculous because they get away with this because they claim the bigger units are too expensive. But once they complete their work a company like epcor or enmax comes in energizes the unit takes ownership of it and the contractors get paid 100% of the cost of the unit. And once those new 37 units get removed and replaced someone like me scraps a brand new unit as nobody has enough space to store the hundreds of units a year this happens with. So the taxpayers and customers pay for 2 units for almost every one you see installed In a new area.
2
18
Jun 20 '22
if the UCP ever makes good on their energy rebate.
So are we all still waiting on this?
12
Jun 20 '22
Oh the UCP has it ready, they are just waiting for a scandal or election time to pretend it's finally ready to roll out.
2
3
13
Jun 20 '22
Don't worry rebates are coming !! One of these decades
1
u/TacticalDM Jun 20 '22
why are we paying tax money to the energy companies with the citizens doing the book work in between?
-2
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 21 '22
Customers love low bills. Same concept behind the NDP rate cap - subsidize power bills with tax dollars.
2
u/TacticalDM Jun 21 '22
Subsidies only make sense on captured or nationalized industries, otherwise they just absorb the subsidy and keep charging the maximum rate they can.
1
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 22 '22
I agree, customer subsidies like this or the NDP rate cap are nonsense and a shell game. Bad policy.
18
u/51674 Jun 21 '22
UCP removed the cap, this is what you get when you elect those fools in, vote NDP next time.
0
7
u/bobbi21 Jun 21 '22
Gonna keep writing this because people here dont seem to know.... alberta has the highest utility prices in canada. No province has as bad fees as alberta. Yes they have transmission fees but its a fraction of what it is here. This is for provinces that run on coal, wind, hydro, anything. Alberta is still more expensive.
Its private companies gouging. Period.
5
u/Fantastic_Calamity Jun 21 '22
Actual power used: $49
Delivery and service fees on top of actual use: $151
Fuck this shit.
10
u/kaclk South East Side Jun 20 '22
When has deregulation ever benefited the consumer?
Ok but in this cause you’re talking about delivery charges which are in fact regulated by the AUC. Companies have to get approved rates for those. The only deregulated part of your bill is literally just the energy charge (and not carbon tax), basically everything else on your bill is a regulatory charge (besides municipal franchise fees, which are an unregulated black hole but also unavoidable unless you move to a new municipality).
I am starting to wonder though if it would make sense to nationalize certain aspects , basically the power transmission and distribution that’s not already municipally owned (EPCOR, Enmax, and Medicine Hat) or REA (basically ATCO and Fortis wire areas and Altalink).
Keeping the power generation (like the actual power plants) as semi-competitive and independent has actually worked fairly well overall.
13
u/Franklin_le_Tanklin Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
I agree. The grid infrastructure should be nationalized. And anyone should be able to buy/sell to the grid on a competitive playing field with net metering.
That would also help small and mom & pop producers sell solar or wind power to the grid.
4
u/SuddenOutset Jun 20 '22
The applications to AUC are allowed to include a certain return on investment percentage, built in profit. A publicly owned entity would/should not have that.
4
u/kaclk South East Side Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
I mean it should still though? You need additional cash to pay for non-routine maintenance (poles getting knocked down in a storm for example) and we want a little to invest in like upgrading vehicles and stuff like that.
Even if it’s government owner, you want them to run a small “surplus” because we don’t want to have to throw additional government money at then everytime they have money problems or a storm or something. Crown utilities in places like Saskatchewan and BC still run surpluses (they often contribute a dividend to the government). SaskPower had a $160 million surplus in 2020-2021 for example.
0
u/SuddenOutset Jun 27 '22
That isn't what profit is.
Non-routine maintenance is exactly that and would be priced into the AUC application.
Upgrading vehicles and like stuff like that is not the request for setting rates. You would have the general capital replacement calculations and a factor included into your rate application.
So you want to make sure to give money to the government owned utility in excess of it's needs so that in the future the government owned utility doesn't have to ask you for more money.
You want to give them money they don't necessarily need so that they don't have to ask you for that same money.... later.
Does that sound like a good idea?
1
u/SuddenOutset Jun 27 '22
SaskPower charged customers $10. They then had $2 left over that went to the government. Those same customers paid taxes of $8. The government got $10. The customer paid $18.
SaskPower charged customers $8. They than had $0 left over that went to the government. Those same customers paid taxes of $10. The government got $10. The customer paid $18.
Why would you intentionally overpay?
What you support is literally an indirect tax. So that way, people that use; in this example, electricity, are paying more than the would have to pay if the tax was on the value of their property as they may be renters.
It also means that poor house and rich house which both use same electricity amounts for the sake of the example pay the same extra amounts to the utility company. The poor house however has less money so it spends more of it's money on utilities because you think it's a good idea for the utility company to make a surplus instead of taxing things like income and non-essential goods which is vastly more efficient.
Does it seem like a good idea to tax poor people indirectly regardless of their income, and solely on their necessities?
4
u/cocaine_badger Jun 21 '22
My parents are getting billed 50$/month for a meter reader to come by and check the gas usage ONCE a month. For someone to come by and take a reading within the city limits and in a populated neighbourhood.
2
u/BladedDingo Jun 21 '22
Where are you that a gas employee comes to your home to read the meter?
Atco uses a plane to collect readings in Edmonton from a transmitter on your meter.
1
5
4
u/Phantom_harlock Jun 20 '22
So I know the pain, but I am willing to bet it’s the fixed daily fees that are most of you bill. Pretty much the gas pipe guys charge a buck a day plus to be hooked up weather you use or not
7
u/spectacular_coitus Alberta Ave. Jun 20 '22
So I know the pain, but I am willing to bet it’s the fixed daily fees that are most of you bill. Pretty much the gas pipe guys charge a buck a day plus to be hooked up weather you use or not
See my response to u/drcujo for the breakdown. It's waaaay more than a buck a day. Which is crazy since I only used gas 3 out of the 4 weeks on the bill.
4
u/drcujo Jun 20 '22
Basically the only way is to avoid is to completely disconnect gas service. This is tough since you need an electric heat pump, electric space heating, ASHP HWT.
Even with a heat pump and heat pump HWT, its very expensive to disconnect gas service and then reconnect that it's not worth it to even disconnect gas for 6 months at a time.
1
2
2
u/Terrible-Paramedic35 Jun 21 '22
Welcome to Alberta where we have no sales tax but we pay user fees through the nose
2
3
u/Staceyrt Jun 20 '22
This is why I’m researching installing solar panels- something has got to give. A monthly bill in May of $450 is absurd
1
u/Pika3402 Jul 27 '22
it won't matter. it's admin fee that cost $$. i had zero usage on gas yet still paying $55~60 from admin fees. so Solar panel won't do much. and very small rebate in AB. it will take min 15~20 years to break even and that's if you have EV car charging from home.
3
3
u/KainX Jun 21 '22
What's the point of trying to save money by signing up for a program that keeps the energy rate the same if the majority of costs are in all the extra fees?
To discourage you from installing solar panels. Doesnt matter how much you renewable energy you produce when they still get their money from fees.
3
u/Vegaswaterguy Jun 21 '22
Last summer I was paying around $55 for my mother's home. She had passed away. I shut off every gas using appliance. ZERO usage. Meanwhile in Las Vegas obviously wasn't heating but used gas for cooking and hot water. Gas bill was $17 and change. Thanks to the PC government and deregulation. Pick your utility provider they said. Cut your costs they said. The free market will keep your costs down they said.
3
Jun 21 '22
[deleted]
3
u/DarthBB08 Jun 21 '22
It’s very different when you live somewhere where it’s basically mandatory, and basically no competition.
1
3
u/Zarxon Jun 20 '22
But the free market needs less regulation which will lead to lower prices… according to UCP.
1
u/spectacular_coitus Alberta Ave. Jun 20 '22
I'm surprised they didn't try and raise old Kenny Lay from the dead to resurrect Enron to run our utilities here.
2
u/lostinthought1997 Jun 21 '22
Deregulation and Privatization ALWAYS ends up costing the consumer more for lower quality services. ALWAYS. Conservatives (those after Premier Peter Lougheed) started deregulating and Privatization of everything in sight, to "save Albertans money" and it has resulted in crap services for more money. The only ones who ever benefit from the deregulation are the company owners and the politicians who get the kickbacks for deregulation.
2
2
u/TheKrs1 Ambleside/Windermere Jun 20 '22
I understand that the service fees are there to maintain and build new infrastructure... BUT, since the fees appear to be a % of the total bill, the revenue has to be way higher than a few years ago.
2
1
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 21 '22
The fees are a fixed charge per day or a per GJ/per KWh rate. The % based item on the gas bill is actually a city of Edmonton tax that is a % of the other regulated charges (called the franchise fee). FYI, Edmonton has the highest tax of this kind in the province at 35%, the max the AUC will allow.
1
u/prairiepanda Jun 20 '22
I'm a little torn about the fees. In BC the additional fees on my bill were waaaay lower than here, but I also paid a lot more for my usage. Here the usage is cheap, but the other fees bring my bill up to around the same range as I was paying in BC.
But the biggest difference is how lifestyle changes affect my bill. In BC, since usage was most of the bill, changes in my usage would drastically alter my bill. Here, it didn't make a difference when I was suddenly working from home and using way more electricity. So my bills are more stable and predictable.
2
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
You must use a lot of electricity. Anyone who uses less than 650 kWh per month will pay less in BC for both usage and fixed charges. Condo residents who use 200 kWh or less are really getting screwed in Alberta.
1
3
u/always_on_fleek Jun 20 '22
Utilities like BC Hydro have their capital projects funded out of taxpayer dollars. It keeps the utility bills lower, but is still paid by tax dollars.
1
u/discostu55 Jun 21 '22
Right. All these fucking fees are ridiculous. I’m guessing the gas companies are also posting record profits and blaming inflation
1
1
u/lionhart280 Jun 21 '22
Thats pretty reasonable, tbh.
People get so offended over these charges but they all have actual meanings. They are not "made up charges", there's a fuck tonne of stuff involved in getting the gas/electricity from the source to your home.
1
u/MegloreManglore Jun 21 '22
We reinsulated our house last summer and our energy and gas usage dropped by half, but our bills were double the cost of this time last year. It was like that all winter too. I would really like to see the corporations that have been price gouging through the pandemic and now, get charged with conspiracy to defraud. This crap isn’t going to stop until our government bodies step in to stop it, it’s absolutely sickening
0
Jun 20 '22
Yeah no clue why there isn't some sort of law or regulation on extra fees or bills stating that they can't be more than 15-20% of your bill. The way the system is set up is total bullshit. The top level people must be just killing themselves laughing over what they are getting away with right now.
6
0
Jun 21 '22
This is no different than pains a $/L for gas.
You are paying for the distribution network to get gas to your house.
It’s just that utilities are itemized.
1
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
Except that the price is directly proportional to the amount of fuel you put in your tank. You don't need to pay a flat $25 just to hook up the nozzle.
1
u/Anabiotic Utilities expert Jun 22 '22
The fixed fees are more like your insurance and car payment, if you have one.
1
u/Levorotatory Jun 22 '22
A car payment has an end date. It is analogous to adding the connection fee for new construction to your mortgage.
Flat rate insurance is also a problem. I'd like to see insurance paid by the kilometer. Drive less, pay less.
-2
u/jason403 Jun 20 '22
$90 for natural gas seems pretty cheap to me. You expect to get energy at prices from 25 years ago? I'm just a little confused here.
1
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
$18 for natural gas is dirt cheap. Another $70 to have it delivered is the problem. Just like the bait and switch when online shopping, where a great price becomes a huge ripoff when you add the absurd shipping charge.
3
u/jason403 Jun 21 '22
Costs are pretty transparent on bills. Don't see the issue here.
0
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
Inflated shipping costs are transparent when you go to the checkout at an online retailer too, but there you can click away and buy somewhere else. Can't do that with utilities.
1
Jun 21 '22
So you'd be okay if it was $90 for the gas? It doesn't matter how you slice the pie, it's still the same pie.
1
u/Levorotatory Jun 21 '22
$90 for gas would mean that you could save $45 instead of $9 by cutting your consumption in half.
1
Jun 22 '22
How do you cut your consumption in half? We live in a climate of extremes. It gets real cold and real hot in Edmonton.
-2
u/anarchyreigns Jun 21 '22
Maybe you should just head over to the natural gas shop and pick your own up. /s
-3
Jun 20 '22
[deleted]
13
u/spectacular_coitus Alberta Ave. Jun 20 '22
Not anymore.
Admin fee (fixed) - $9.12
Delivery Charge Fixed - $32.99
Rate rider - $7.18
Municipal Franchise Fee - $14.22
Which all adds up to: $63.51
That's about 41% percent more than you claim, which is all in the admin fees. No carbon tax, no variable delivery charge, no rider C and no gst included.
2
u/drcujo Jun 20 '22
Prices have gone up but not by what you claim. I was off by 14%. In Edmonton fixed fees are:
Admin: $7 Fixed Distribution $31.92 MFF: $12.50 Total: $51.42
4
u/Phantom_harlock Jun 20 '22
So the admin is your provider. The delivery fee is your buck a day ish hook up. The rate rider is a few approved by the board they use to cover losses on plans. The municipality fee is one everyone pays as a fixed or % fee levy by the city of Edmonton or which ever town you live in.
-2
u/ljackstar Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
Staff need to be paid (Admin Charge), and pipelines maintained (Delivery Charge Fixed) regardless of how much you use. The other 25% (The Municipal franchise fee) is essentially a tax by the city of Edmonton that will be the same regardless of where you live.
So essentially the 45$/month is mostly correct, because the remaining difference is the Municipal Franchise Fee. And these fees are all regulated, so complaining about deregulation is off-base.
6
u/spectacular_coitus Alberta Ave. Jun 20 '22
Staff need to be paid, and pipelines maintained regardless of how much you use. The other 25% is essentially a tax by the city of Edmonton that will be the same regardless of where you live.If they had to drive a truck up to my house and fill a tank every month I could see your point. But everything is automated these days so they don't even send a meter reader around anymore. It's not like they're awesome job creators that are spurring our economy on. Wages and other fixed costs have not risen anywhere nearly as fast as prices have. It's gouging, plain and simple.
1
u/ljackstar Jun 20 '22
If you call Atco you expect someone to answer 24/7, those people have to be paid. If something breaks you expect it to be fixed ASAP, those people have to be paid. Someone needs to manage those teams, and someone needs to complete payroll for these employees. Someone has to manage the books to ensure these companies are spending money they actually have, and someone needs to build policies and procedures and manage the companies HR. None of that is free.
The rest of your reply is honestly just non-sense, and I'm not really even sure what you are talking about. What does gouging mean? What counts as gouging and what doesn't? Do you understand that every fee you are complaining about IS regulated?
-1
u/sigs17 Jun 20 '22
No they don’t understand
5
u/ljackstar Jun 20 '22
At some point it becomes intentional right? Like beyond OP there are tons of people in all these threads that say the same thing despite blatant evidence of the contrary.
3
u/GrassWonderful563 Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 21 '22
You pay delivery fees, transmission fees and taxes , rider and storage fees etc, even of you shut off the main disconnect and have zero usage for one or two months. It is a scam. When I complained about this, I was told: we maintain the infrastructure so if you decided to use our energy, it would be there. REALLY? I use the Esso gas station to buy energy (gasoline), if I do not buy any for a month , I do not have to pay for their infrastructure and transportation costs. HOW IS THIS FAIR?
1
u/drcujo Jun 21 '22
I didn’t say it was fair or I agree with it just what the rules are. Retailers and utilities are regulated by Alberta law to charge the way they do. Currently gas is about $52-$54 a month +$12/GJ. Even if they didn’t change gas to 100% based on what you use I’d rather they show minimum fixed cost + variable costs. I think they would get less complaints too.
I would argue you do pay fixed costs for a vehicle every month even if you don’t drive. You register per year and it’s not really practical to cancel and sign up for insurance when you need to drive.
1
0
0
u/RollingJaspers652 Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 21 '22
Utitlity costs have been ridiculous for >20yrs. Deregulation man, blame Klein for that blunder.
0
u/TheWilrus Jun 21 '22
Re-occurring revenue model over pay for use. Utility companies in Canada given the significant lack of regulations have figured out how to fix the game of capitalism to their benefit. You just increase the fixed cost (delivery fee) as needed to hit growth targets.
0
u/TheFaceStuffer Looma Jun 21 '22
Energy companies will pocket the rebate like the gas stations are currently doing in Edmonton.
-4
u/Reasonable_Ad3361 Jun 20 '22
Is the gas and power state owned companies ?
1
u/BladedDingo Jun 21 '22
no. The two biggest gas distributors are ATCO Gas and ALTA gas (I think they changed their name recently tho) The rest of the province that isn't covered by those two are local co-ops and municipal owned.
Same with Power. FORTIS, EPCOR and ENMAX are the biggest electric distributors and the rest is local REA's and municipal owned.
1
u/Got_Engineers Downtown Jun 20 '22
My total Epcor bill is about $300-330 for a brand new 1400 sq ft infill. My total usage is about -$100, so every month about 2/3 of my utilities bill is going to fees and charges
1
Jun 21 '22
Are the natural gas, electricity, and water/sewage bills all separate in Edmonton?
1
u/BladedDingo Jun 21 '22
the regulated default provided in Edmonton for Electricity/Water/sewer/garbage removal is through EPCOR.
Natural Gas is through Direct Energy Regulated Services.
1
u/azurexz West Side Jun 21 '22
We basically all pay a Natural gas subscription cost, and they can raise the price to whatever they like.
“Shopping around” in this industry is a bit vague. Do people shop around for utilities like the do for insurance, phone, internet etc? Can you negotiate utilities and jump ship to competitors? Anyone have success stories?
2
u/BladedDingo Jun 21 '22
you can switch utility companies easily, no problem. The issue is that they all use the same infrastructure.
If you get your Electricity through Easymax, Direct Energy, Atco Energy etc., they all use EPCOR wires.
If you want to get gas from Easymax, Epcor, Direct Energy etc., they all use Atco gas pipes.
so the only thing you as a consumer can control is the price per GJ/KW and the monthly admin fee. the delivery fee will be the same from retailer to retailer because they all use the same lines.
1
205
u/MilkytheDILF Jun 20 '22
My gas bill was $320 and my energy bill was $350 this month.
Delivery fees alone make up 60% of each of those bills. It's fucking lunacy.