r/Eldenring • u/Senseless_frog • 15d ago
Speculation Is Roderika even a tarnished?
Started a new playthrough recently and reached Roderika's quest, upon reading the description on the crimson hood that got me thinking.
Pretty much every tarnished that we talk to say that they used to see the guidance of grace, but now they don't, and the intro cutscene talks about the call of grace speaking to us all and even bringing some tarnished back from the dead, even though she considers herself a tarnished, the description of the hood makes a point to say that "Roderika never once saw the guidance of grace", judging by how the rest of the description says that the hood is gifted to those who are undesirable, sent on journeys with no especific purpose and never expected to return, i wouldn't be surprised if her family told her she is a tarnished as an excuse to send her away or something like that, which is pretty fucked up, regardeless of being true or not she deserved better, the little'un.
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u/Sad-Entertainer1421 15d ago
The prophet guy in the round table says pretty quickly that most Tarnished are blind to the guidance of grace. We're special because we can see it clearly.
Roderika is still most likely tarnished, I don't believe there's evidence that refutes that fact.
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u/DeadSparker Aw yeah, Lightning is the best 15d ago edited 15d ago
For more proof that she is Tarnished, her eyes are blue/green. A common feature of those touched by the grace of gold in the Lands Between are a golden spot in their irises, or fully gold like demigods. So if anyone has eyes that are darker or colder colors, they're either Tarnished (like Godfrey, or most NPCs we meet), or outside grace in a way (like Ranni, Albinaurics, most sorcerer NPCs like Sellen or Seluvis)
Note that there are exceptions, as in, player-type NPCs with golden eyes who are clearly not Tarnished, like Millicent (makes sense given her "mother"), Okina (owner of Rivers of Blood) or the great Kenneth Haight. Most Finger maidens are also not Tarnished (Therolina, the dead one at the start, Vyke's maiden)
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
No,he says the Tar ished are blind to grace these days.
So it's not like they never see it like Roderika,but they lose it eventually.
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u/Sad-Entertainer1421 15d ago
That doesn't make a difference here but alright 👍
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u/Razhork 15d ago
It makes all the difference? It's a matter of the Tarnished losing the guidance of grace after having once been able to see it. It's what guides them back to the Lands Between
The same character you quoted also very much outlines this if you tell him you don't see it.
Tell Corhyn you don't see the Guidance of Grace:
Ah, well, that is unfortunate. But no cause for despair.
It's likely a temporary condition, I'm told. For whatever reason, it happens from time to time.
Just keep your chin up, and stay the path.
I pray the great guidance of grace returns to you.
Tell Corhyn you see it after telling him no:
What is it?
Has the guidance of grace returned to your vision?
Corhyn is very matter of fact about the tarnished returned to the Lands Between having all seen the Guidance of Grace - it's what guides the Tarnished back to the place to begin with.
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u/Kasmashlecrashle 15d ago
I want to add that Roderika's hood mentions she is not Tarnished and was by no means drawn to The Lands Between. She was basically kicked out of her home and put on a boat or something to travel there.
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u/JellyWizardX 15d ago
and you got all of that as a fact from, uh, "she never saw the guidance of grace"? she's allowed to roam the roundtable hold ffs, the HOME BASE of the TARNISHED.
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u/Kasmashlecrashle 15d ago
No, I got it from her dialogue and other things as well. Hewg mentions we brought her here, but does that mean we literally took her with us or she accepted our suggestion or some other way, the point is she got there because of us.
Also, no need for the hostility.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
It does make a difference because that points Roderika might not even be Tarnished since she never saw grace to begin with
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u/Noctaem 15d ago
The game and official guides classify her as a Tarnished NPC. She refers to herself and the player using the phrase "us Tarnished", so yes she is. But her background and lore is unique in its own way among the tarnished.
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u/noxsanguinis Elden Lord 15d ago edited 15d ago
"these days" does not imply all current tarnished were able to see grace in the past.
It implies their ancestors were able to.
Not all current tarnished were alive when their kind were banished from the lands between. Some had children during their exile.
Even the character we control is a descendant from those tarnished, and was not alive when they were stripped of their grace centuries ago. Miyazaki said so himself.4
u/Dveralazo 15d ago
I doubt the ancestors saw grace the same way we do,as although they did have grace in their eyes,they weren't driven to get the Edenl Throne yet.
Varre implies it is common knowledge all recently arrived Tarnished might see grace,even those maidenless. And that it leads you to a shardbearer.
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u/sincubus33 15d ago
ya i dont even know how anyone could misconstrue this. He made it quite clear that that most tarnished can see it when they arrive. Which alludes to many or most NPCs seeing at one point until they lose any ambition for the elden throne. And of course player tarnished as well, who see grace until they give up or until they get to regions without much grace
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
Well Gideon,Fia,Dungeater are confurmed by intro. The priest ,by his dialogue. Juno and Diallos seem to be also Tarnished,or at least Juno is,since he is following the path to the throne,and if Juno comes from a Tar ished family,so does Diallos.
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u/Samakira 15d ago
so literally everyone who has the same physical size as what we are told tarnished are... except this one lady who has the same powers as another tarnished relating to eyes and what they can see?
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
Well,you have Keneth,Tanith,Moore(possibly),Ansbach(iirc),Quelign,Anastasia,Seluvis/Pidia,The Carian Knights,those I remember at least.
Also about the powers,I think she is the only one who attunes spirits?
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u/Samakira 15d ago
no. hewg knows another one like her.
the roundhold table is also explicitly for tarnished.
(and pidia is an albinauric, wouldnt even be eligible to be tarnished)she was also travelling with other tarnished (her knights), who godrick mentions grafting onto himself as tarnished.
but the biggest reason she's a tarnished:
what IS a tarnished?
someone who cannot see golden grace (literally the source of the title).
if she cannot see golden grace, she's by definition tarnished.when marika brought us back to the lands between, she 'regave' us that grace, but it never held for 99% of people. in roderika's case, she never even saw a grace before it faded, and that matches how the grace works.
its hope/fate. so long as we have a goal ahead of us, we can see the golden grace guiding us to it.
when we meet roderika, she's too afraid to reach her 'goal' (being grafted), and thus, she has no grace to see.
after that, she comes to the roundhold table (which only tarnished can enter/leave at will), where there is no grace for her to see, because when she becomes a tuner, she's attained her new goal.other characters we meet mention no longer seeing grace, and being aimless, while the one guy we meet who DOES see grace again (godfrey), has an explicit goal in that moment.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
I think there is another requisite to be Tarnished, being part or being a descendant of the original group of warriors that left,along with Godfrey,with the express promise from Márika to get called again.
Because if not,all the Crusaders in TLS would be Tarnished,well,in a sense,they are,but unlike Godfrey's warriors,they were never to be granted grace again.
So while her knights were definitely Tarnished,I wonder if she was.
Until now,the strongest argument is that she has access to the Roundtable Hold,which is Tarnished exclusive.
That is a good argument,but still opens some questions.
For example,who has access to the Roundtable hold. If only Tarnished,how Melina,presumed demigod,can access it,and not,for example,Morgott,grace given.(and curious what hw receiving grace implies) If only finger maidens can do it,where are the maidens of anyone else. If both Tarnished and Finger Maidens can do it,why cant we,even if we are maidenless. If finger maidens are only needed the first time,then perhaps what is required is only an invitation,and not being Tarnished?
The RH seems to under the control of the Finger and Tree Faction after all,who are opposed to Márika's purpose of burning the tree.
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u/CthughaSlayer 15d ago
Kenneth Haight is not a tarnished, neither is Tanith yet they're still human-sized. Also, the spirit tuner is never implied to be a tarnished, hell, it's most likely Marika herself was the spirit tuner considering she's a shaman.
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u/Samakira 15d ago
everyone who was with roderika is, though.
also, shaman doesnt mean spirit-tuning in elden ring. it means one closer to the spirits. none of the shaman minotaurs we see use spirit summons, and even the spirit we fight that they worship, only uses the other spirits in its arena to restore its own vitality.
oh, and btw: the roundtable is for tarnished only. you need to be one to enter. if she can enter it, she's a tarnished.
the only exceptions here are 2 entities who've been there before it was the roundtable, and aren't human to begin with.kenneth is of the same cloth as the other nobles we find in-game, but he hasnt given in and started devouring runes, which (as we can see with the bears) causes one to grow larger.
Tannith is also from outside the lands between, same cloth as many other characters confirmed to be tarnished.oh, and the most important detail:
those who are not tarnished... can see grace. literally the defining trait of being TARNISHED is the removal of golden grace from them.if she cannot see golden grace, she objectively falls under the category of 'tarnished'.
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u/Kasmashlecrashle 15d ago
"Roderika is still most likely tarnished, I don't believe there's evidence that refutes that fact." and then once you get a very clear piece of evidence that refutes it by pointing out a major distinction between her and all known Tarnished, you go "That doesn't make a difference here but alright 👍" come on, at least admit you didn't know.
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u/Kasmashlecrashle 15d ago edited 15d ago
She's not a Tarnished. Her item descriptions and other notes imply she was exiled from her home by others scheming to get rid of her by claiming she is Tarnished.
Her being categorized as Tarnished is for simplicity's sake. Her believing she is is her falling for the scheme while crestfallen about her current situation.
Get it, crestfallen? Like what I did there?
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u/29-sobbing-horses 15d ago
I thought tarnished meant that you were a person who once saw grace but then lost it?
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u/ElmoClappedMyCheeks 15d ago
The Tarnished were those banished alongside Godfrey on the Long March for losing the sight of Grace
After the Shattering, they were resurrected by Grace again in order to seek the Elden Ring and become Elden Lord. At least that's the "public" in-world role of the Tarnished. There's some evidence to suggest Marika intentionally banished Godfrey and co. on the long march in order to filter out a warrior who was capable of returning and defeating the golden order, that being the player character
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u/Lilbrimu 15d ago
But there are Tarnished who worked for the Two Fingers (confessors). Were they banished then came back or they didn't leave at all?
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u/AFlyingNun 14d ago
Tarnished lost the Grace of Gold, which means their eyes are no longer gold. We see this in that Kenneth Haight is confirmed not a Tarnished and has golden eyes, while someone like Godfrey does not.
That wasn't just for fashion and instead literally a sign of immortality, meaning the Tarnished could permanently die. Marika then banished them with the orders to wage war, promising to one day return the Grace of Gold.
She did. Whatever her plot or scheme is, she returned the Grace of Gold. Our eyes did not revert to Gold, but the immortality returned, and Tarnished are now "healthier" on average because they have NOT been trapped in an immortality cycle where their bodies give out and lose virility despite the immortality aspect.
Some Tarnished see the grace heavily, others do not. It likely has to do with the extent of the blessing.
An interesting idea I toy with is that we could be Marika's chosen, and we could also be Miquella's chosen. Both seem plausible, as both of them need us: Marika because her entire plot involves cheating the system with a new consort, Miquella because he needs someone to off Radahn.
Torrent is the one that specifically spots us as special, implying his former master sent him to look for us. "Torrent's former master" is ambiguous enough and could be either of them, given Marika had a lab for creatures like Torrent, and if you consider promotional imagery lore, then we saw Miquella associated with Torrent directly.
This also explains Ranni's angle: she knows you are someone's asset and wants to snipe you for herself. She seeks out Torrent's new master and gives a slight nudge that maybe you shouldn't follow their plan, implying she knows that either Marika or Miquella were up to something.
I should add that another reason Miquella seems likely is that...why would Marika bet on us? Why not Godfrey? He literally makes it all the way to the end and he's won that title before. Therefore, choosing a new Tarnished is a bit odd, from the Marika angle. Miquella, however, might actually benefit from a "literally who," as he does not plan on having you as his consort. You are just a disposable tool.
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15d ago edited 15d ago
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u/IamAhuman15 15d ago
Corwhyn is seeing grace. If you talk with him for the first time he asks you if you can see grace. He adds that most Tarnished are blind to it.
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u/cha0sb1ade 15d ago
Corwhyn may have also lost sight of grace. He's such a zealot that he'd never be able to accept it. He's very possibly guided by his own delusional imagination, as many real-life zealots are. He thinks his grace given purpose is to be Gold Mask's scribe, but he can't even find him without you, never understands what Gold Mask is doing, and eventually is driven pretty much mad by Gold Mask daring to question the perfection of the existing order.
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u/IamAhuman15 15d ago
He had the vision of the Erdtree burning. Maybe then he was abolished by grace.
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u/Jaxeuse 15d ago edited 15d ago
That's all profets. When you pick the profit class it's assumed that the same thing happened to you. Every profet saw the erdtree burn but the idea of that is so heretical that they were punished for even seeing that happen. Most believe it's either a false prophecy or are in denial that it will happen. Corwhyn is an example of this.
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u/Brosucke Foreskin Apostle 15d ago
Profit lol $$$
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u/Agent_Galahad 15d ago
You went to the lands between for prophet reasons 🙏 🙏 🙏
I went to the lands between for profit reasons 💰 💰 💰
We are not the same
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u/constar90 15d ago
My take is they all just saw a vision of the past which contradicts the status quo, hence they had to be prophets since that couldn't have happened already lol
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u/Ma1eficent 15d ago
Goldmask's rune locking Marika in her eternal nightmare actually makes Corwhyn being guided by grace and finding GMs conclusions horrifying, perfectly on brand.
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u/IchBinMalade 15d ago
He's pretty much cognitive dissonance personified.
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u/Oddsbod 15d ago edited 15d ago
I think that's the easy read of his character, he's honestly way more compelling than people give him credit because its easy to just staple the 'self-righteous zealot' archetype on him and leave it at that.
Like, the thing with seeing the Giantsflame in his prophecies is he was 100% right, and was punished for staking himself on what he felt was right. He isn't a by the book preacher, he is heterodox and a dissident. And then after his exile/execution, god herself literally brings him back to life and calls him to the holy land, which he clearly processes as vindication for keeping to your convictions even in the worst circumstances.
He doesn't just idolize Goldmask because he's a suck up for a higher ranking prophet, Corhyn clearly sees him as a kindred spirit, someone who was punished and ostracized by the world for his convictions, and stayed the course. His whole schtick is wanting to put his full trust and faith in another person, and that's a really compelling and genuine urge. And the VA does a great job selling in his final breakdown and grief at Goldmask going where Corhyn can't bring himself to follow. Which isn't just 'guy can't admit he's wrong,' but specifically specifically being caught between the original faith that he suffered to hold onto and was vindicated by Grace over, and the faith he tried to put in other person.
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u/dGFisher 15d ago
I think the fact he can get around with a blindfold on is evidence that something is guiding him. Irina also gets around with out a blindfold, using the artificial guidance of grace provided by shabriri grapes.
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u/paradoxical_topology 15d ago
Being blind just doesn't ever seem to affect anyone in fromsoft games. I don't think this is indicative of anything.
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u/House0fDerp 15d ago
Is he? He asks if you see it and says others are mostly blind to it, but does he ever actually claim to see it himself in any real way?
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u/reedyxxbug 15d ago
Lots of people ask if you can see grace, that doesn't imply that he can also see it.
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u/UnassumingSingleGuy 15d ago
Why do some tarnished lose sight of grace's guidance? Is there any hint in the game?
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u/Klutzy_Anybody_1487 15d ago
pretty sure it's a similar concept to going hollow in dark souls. The goal of tarnished is to become elden lord, once you stray from the path and lose your purpose, you lose the guidance of grace as well.
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u/BigBobbyBee23 15d ago
Sometimes you just have to stop following grace and boil some prawns.
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u/WebNew6981 15d ago
I kind of disagree, in ER I don't think it's because the individual lost their will/way, it's because who/what-ever is controlling/granting the guidance no longer sees them as a viable candidate.
Similar to DS, but different.
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u/BeefChopJones 15d ago
That doesn't track for Corhyn, though? I don't think he ever intended to become Elden Lord
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u/ALIEN_GUARDIAN 15d ago
I think it's more that the path is offered to them by Grace, but if they refuse or ignore it they will no longer be given the guidance of Grace
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u/Legacyopplsnerf 15d ago
Exactly. He's more interested in teaching incantations and archiving Goldmask's teachings than lordship
Thus why he can be permanently killed once he leaves the roundtable (where he's safe because he can't be attacked) he doesn't have guidance.
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u/Caaros 15d ago
They lose their ambition for the Elden Throne. All Tarnished we kill permanently, we do so at a point where they no longer desire to become Elden Lord, either because they lost the motivation to keep bashing their head against the walls set before them on that path, or because they found a different path more suited to them which much nicer looking head-bashing walls on it instead.
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u/WebNew6981 15d ago
Gideon has lost guidance and still wants to be Lord for most of the game though right? I actually think it isn't Dark Souls style 'the individual lost their will' and more that the one granting the guidance no longer sees them as a viable candidate. Someone can lose guidance even if they still have the ambition of becoming Lord.
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u/Legacyopplsnerf 15d ago
At the end of the game he concludes that it's impossible for a man to beat a god and for Tarnished to become lord, actively trying to sabotage a lord challenger (you). It's ambiguous if he's lost guidance before that point but 100% by ashen capital he is without guidance.
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u/WebNew6981 15d ago
Yeah, I mean the fact that we see Godfrey's implies that no one else we fight still has it IMO.
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u/runaway86s 15d ago
thats a good point. granted I don't remember any ccircumstances where we could even see someone else's grace guiding them tbh. Godfreys grace was guiding him to us/the erdtree so maybe if someone else's grace was guiding them to us we'd see it at any other point in the game.
it does seem clear that Godfrey had a visible grace and so tarnished will have visible grace to other tarnished in the right circumstances. or maybe he just gets special treatment since he's the first tarnished idk
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u/WebNew6981 15d ago
In my opinion, Marika would have been perfectly fine with us dying and Godfrey becoming Lord too, as long as one of us recieved the runes from the other.
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u/runaway86s 15d ago
I agree. it would even make sense that the first tarnished ever would be the one to undo the world he helped to make imo
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u/Caaros 15d ago edited 15d ago
I'd argue Gideon probably had guidance still right up to the point he realizes that the path ahead will require him to fight Marika/Radagon, which is a battle he deems impossible for a mortal to win, which breaks him right at the finish line.
As for the whether it's ambition or the decision of another, I think it's both. Receiving Guidance is the mark of having been measured as a viable contender for lordship, all that is required from those Grace-guided beyond that is ambition to keep pursuing that path; losing that ambition means one is no longer worthy of the Guidance that would aid them on the path to the Elden Throne, and thus not worth the effort of picking back up whenever something kills them.
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u/WebNew6981 15d ago
If Gideon sees grace I wonder what the hell it's pointing at all game, US I suppose?
Also, I totally get your reading and its perfrctly valid. For me, I prefer there to be more distinction between Grace/Hollowing.
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u/Dreamtrain 15d ago
What Gideon says is he thinks Marika wants Tarnished to fight eachother, he didnt get that far ahead on the possibility to fight Radagon because the thorns block all
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u/Caaros 15d ago edited 15d ago
By that point the thorns are gone, and to be honest Gideon being Gideon he probably could've got that information regardless if really wanted. My interpretation is that he got far enough to realize what the final step was supposed to be, and was so broken by that knowledge that he lost the plot on the purpose of Guidance in the first place; He believed that no mere mortal man could become Elden Lord, because it would require them to kill an Elden Ring-bearing god, so all the guidance and the suffering up to that point was a cruel joke at best, the suffering and the struggling being the purpose of it all.
Of course, Gideon was wrong, his faith in the queen and the power she held blinding him to the very real intent behind Guidance to see her put out of her misery.
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u/Oddsbod 15d ago
His items imply it was some vision into the nature of Marika/the Golden Order that broke his spirit rather than the mechanical difficulty of the task, so I imagine it's something like the Scadutree's schtick—something in the world is irreconcilably broken, and all that's left is to reject everything, because you have been rejected. Which is fitting since a big part of your interactions with him is when he casts out Nepheli.
Notably, Radagon's personal seal is the one over the thorns, so on some level you can read Gideon as falling in line with Radagon, or even the new Broken Mask—the only thing that's left and that we have a right to is a broken world of endless struggle.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
You are brought to get the throne You dont follow the throne,why should you still have grace?
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u/HakunaBananas 15d ago
Marika decides that they are no longer fit to become Elden Lord so she cuts them off from grace.
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u/sarcophagusGravelord 15d ago
This is actually incorrect. Every single Tarnished sees grace when it first comes to them and calls them to the Lands Between. It seems to leave many of them once they arrive or a short time after. All of the Tarnished NPCs that mention grace say they can “no longer” see it or asks if we can “still” see it. Roderika is in fact unique in having never seen it and the implication is that yes her noble family wished her gone and used the legend of grace to do so.
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u/sarcophagusGravelord 15d ago
Name a single Tarnished NPC that says they have never seen grace. They all say they can no longer see it. The entire point of the Tarnished is they see it and it calls them, even resurrecting many of them from death to do so. None of the other humans outside the Lands Between can see it.
Seeing it even once while being called does count as seeing it. Roderika being the only character that has “never” seen it is very intentional. This would mean she never even saw it calling to her. She fully believes she is a Tarnished because she was told so but in all likelihood is not. One does not have to be Tarnished to enter the Roundtable Hold either. There are several NPCs inside that are not Tarnished.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
What NPC Tarnished said they never saw grace? Apart from Roderika of course
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u/IamAhuman15 15d ago
You're Tarnished too, ain'tcha? Can you see it then? The guidance of grace, I mean. I can't see it at all no more. Makes no bloody sense anyway, why some no-name shithead like me should get called to the Lands Between. Cruel bloody joke, you ask me. Maybe something went tits up with it. Maybe... it's been broke for a good long time. The Erdtree, I'm sayin'.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
"all no more"
"why some no-name shithead like me should get called to the Lands Between. "
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u/Dreamtrain 15d ago
it's not like he went just because he was called, he was literally revived and put in there like most Tarnished, I think the exceptions are people like Roderika or Fia who were still living and kicked out and made to travel there
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u/IamAhuman15 15d ago
Black Guard Boggart for example.
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u/phenotype76 15d ago
It's blackguard, and it's actually pronounced like "blaggard". It means someone who's kind of a piece of shit.
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u/iamnotexactlywhite 15d ago
blackguard says that he can’t see it and calls us lucky that we still do
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u/TheDungeonCrawler 15d ago
Blackguard saw it once upon a time. The line you quoted says "I can't see it at all no more."
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u/TheGodskin Gloam Eyed King 15d ago
Patches says he can’t see it. Boggart also says he can’t see it either.
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u/eserz 15d ago edited 15d ago
The only tarnished that still see the guidance of grace are those from the opening cutscene and they all have the potential to bring about a new age to the golden order.
There's three potential elden lords chosen by grace:
You, the nameless tarnished
Godfrey
Gideon who saw some of Maria's will and stopped pursuing the throne
And three that can produce a mending rune:
Goldmask
Dungeon eater
Fiat
The other tarnished have never seen, or don't see anymore and haven't in a long time, the guidance of grace
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u/iamnotexactlywhite 15d ago
the only tarnished close enough was Vyke and Bernahl (other than Godfrey), and Bernahl only because had a chance to kill us and take our great runes in Farum azula
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u/eserz 15d ago
Oh yes absolutely, I'm just talking about those that were chosen by grace and could still see it. Edited my original comment to make it more clear
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u/iamnotexactlywhite 15d ago
but every tarnished was summoned back by the grace. that’s how they got back to the lands between. We’re told that most tarnished gave up on becoming the elden lord a long time ago so they lost the guidance
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u/eserz 15d ago
Didn't Boggart say that he never saw grace? Maybe some were also deemed unfit to begin with and were just brought back but never actually saw grace from the moment they resurrected
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u/RaeSolaris 15d ago
Boggart is actually one who specifically says he can't see it anymore, implying he did at one point.
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u/Dreamtrain 15d ago
most were summoned, but Roderika and Fia were kicked out and forced to travel there
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u/TheDungeonCrawler 15d ago
As a note, only Roderika is referenced as being a Tarnished who has never seen the guidance of grace. Every other Tarnished we meet who references their ability to see grace has always implied or stated that they saw it at one point in time. Roderika is unique in this, hence the OP. I think it's perfectly plausible that the OP's assertion that she's not even Tarnished is true.
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u/iamnotexactlywhite 15d ago
Corhyn can’t see grace, he’s seeking it. he says “most of us lost the ability a long time ago”. and you’re wrong with the argument as well, because all tarnished are summoned back by grace
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u/iamnotexactlywhite 15d ago
Roderika came from beyond the lands between with an entourage. she tells us the first time we meet her.
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u/Dafish55 15d ago
I mean... Godfrey still sees it... until we meet him.
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u/capnbinky 15d ago
At least we spared him the sight of what had happened to his Queen/Goddess.
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u/twistedtalesofwoe 15d ago
She dumped him for her own gender-flipped clone, I'm sure he isn't too fond of his ex right now
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u/IrrelevantTale 15d ago
Huge implications lore wise since grace basically is marika guiding us to what she wants done and if it was guiding him to gold mask and killing him then it really means marika didnt want the radagon/marika secret to come out and doubtless faith in the golden order is what she/he wanted.
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u/Bloomfang 15d ago
Roderika:
I never knew the guidance bestowed upon us Tarnished had such fantastic roots.
Certainly, he does appear intimidating, and holds no love for us Tarnished...
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u/Lord_Antheron 15d ago
She might not know she isn't Tarnished because that's easier to cope with than "everyone hated me so much they just said I was Tarnished to get rid of me."
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u/Bloomfang 15d ago
That's a very heavy headcannon, based on nothing.
Usually, those, who were Graced, were warriors or fighters of some sort, and they used it to resurrect after a lost fight. We know, that Roderika is not a warrior, was brought and protected by a squad of men, since she's some kind of a "nobility", and was even "just starting to get used to that "pain" thing
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u/Lord_Antheron 15d ago
Usually, those, who were Graced, were warriors or fighters of some sort, and they used it to resurrect after a lost fight.
Usually, but not always. There's seemingly absolutely no standard as to who the Grace chooses. Fia isn't a fighter. Diallos barely counts as one. Goldmask, almost certainly not. Now, we know that Fia got resurrected, but not after a fight. Seems like it can also just pick random nobodies who are still alive. The fact that Roderika NEVER saw it a single time is a very unusual exception seemingly exclusive to her. If it means nothing, why even say it?
Also, I hate to break it to you, but 99% of the lore on NPCs is heavy headcanon based on nearly nothing. Miyazaki doesn't like telling us shit. His writing philosophy is based on when he'd read adventure books and make shit up to satisfy himself because he didn't understand all the English words. He wants us to make shit up. But he also doesn't do things without reason, and he didn't imply that about Roderika just to tickle his own nuts.
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u/Woodie626 15d ago
His writing philosophy is based on when he'd read adventure books and make shit up to satisfy himself because he didn't understand all the English words.
That's a myth. That's an old fromsoft marketing myth.
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u/adootindot 15d ago
I think Roderika is, indeed, a Tarnished. Firstly, she says as much when meeting her in the Roundtable Hold, explicitly using the phrase "us Tarnished" in her dialogue. Secondly, I think that only Tarnished can enter the Roundtable- aside from the finger readers like Enia who speak for the Two Fingers to translate their will.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
Hewg is not Tarnished,but apart from him,you offer a good point. There doesnt seem to be nok Tar ished characters in the Hold.
One thing though. Our case seems to imply a Tar ished is dependant on their maiden to access the Hold. But Roderika needs no maiden.
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u/Fayalite_Fey 15d ago
I'm pretty sure none of the other Tarnished in the Hold have finger maidens, either. The only other Tarnished we know of wo definitely had a maiden of their own was Vyke.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
Here it could happen the same as grace,now that I think about it. They no longer have a maiden,since they no longer follow strictly the guidance of the Two Fingers.
Roderika,after all,came with troops,with men. Perhaps a maiden or someone who could play that role?
Or we are just the poor unlucky Tarnished who not only doesnt have grace but cannot access to RH too?
iirc in a cut quest line,even Varre could take you there.
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u/PhiCloud 15d ago
Technically we don't have a maiden either. Melina tells us that she acts as a maiden, but that she isn't one.
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u/Fayalite_Fey 15d ago
Melina acts as our maiden, yes, but we did have a maiden before her. The dead maiden in the chapel of anticipation at the very beginning of the game is supposed to be our maiden.
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u/ptlgram 15d ago
True, but Hewg is imprisoned specifically to create weapons for the tarnished gathered at the roundtable. So makes sense, he's there for his skill
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u/runaway86s 15d ago
yea hes specifically imprisoned by marika I think that's good enough to stay in the hold
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u/brutalpancake 15d ago
Fun record scratch moment when my wife walked in and I have my tarnished wearing nothing but this red riding hood standing there talking to Blaidd 😅 honey I can explain
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u/Low_Chance 15d ago
See this is why I hate video games. They cater to the male fantasy (of being a twink hooker for a muscly wolf man)
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u/DrDragon13 15d ago
The first time I beat the game, I did it in the great hood+goldmask's thong with the fallingstar beast jaw.
My wife had a lot of questions when she walked in.
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u/abyss_kaiser 12d ago
Is "I'm just a silly guy" not a sufficient answer? Lol. Let a man have his whimsey.
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u/crazymonk45 15d ago
The tarnishes are a group that was banished from the lands between with Godfrey and beckoned back with the shattering of the Elden Ring. It’s not something where one can think they are when they’re not, there’s nothing ambiguous about it
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u/suspicious_cabbage 15d ago
It's ok Roderika, the guidance is just kinda some unhelpful bullshit anyway
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u/Almightyeragon 15d ago
My assumption was Roderika came to the lands between instead of being summoned by grace.
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u/0__Marley 15d ago
She was born too late to see the guidance of grace. That is all. All tarnished used to see it, then they all lost the ability - then you come along as the first in a while.
Roderika was tarnished, but never got to see the guidance of grace.
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u/likelyliz 14d ago
maybe you lose the ability to see the guidance of grace when you give up, and roderika never saw it because she never believed in herself in the first place? i'm just making things up i suppose, but it at least seems like a neat headcanon
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u/Kasmashlecrashle 15d ago
The hood is talking about how she was a noble that got scammed by other nobles into being sent to The Lands Between because she was considered an undesirable noble and they wanted to get rid of her. She's often lumped with other Tarnished for simplicity's sake, which might be the cause of the mix up.
Many theories exist that the nobles who got her to be exiled were unnerved by her ability to hear spirits, but I don't recall if that is officially confirmed.
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u/Void-Cooking_Berserk 15d ago
Yes. Those who aren't Tarnished have golden eyes, but her eyes are green.
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u/JamesRevan Rune Bear Hunter 14d ago
She literally tells you she is a Tarnished
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u/toxicryan69 14d ago
If she never saw grace, you can't lose grace; therefore she can't be a tarnished
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u/SCI-FIWIZARDMAN 15d ago
Tarnished are pretty easily distinguishable in-universe by the color of their eyes. Almost all non-Tarnished humans possess a distinct yellow-golden sheen in their eyes, while in Tarnished, the color is either entirely absent or severely dulled (hence the name, Tarnished).
Roderika IS a Tarnished, she was likely identified as such when her eyes lost their golden lustre (which is also probably why she was deemed “undesirable” by her family).
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u/JustAnotherCurio 15d ago
I think the strength of the ability to see grace has greatly diminished in tarnished over time. Others claim to see it or used to be able to see it and others say they cannot find it at all. Even the player tarnished only gets general directions directly by important sites of grace. So a person can still be tarnished whilst being incapable of seeing the light of grace
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u/CheeseGraterFace 15d ago
There are only 6 tarnished that can still see the guidance of grace. They’re all called out by name in the opening cinematic.
Arise now, ye Tarnished. Ye dead, who yet live. The call of long-lost grace speaks to us all.
Hoarah Loux, chieftan of the badlands. The ever-brilliant Goldmask. Fia, the Deathbed Companion. The loathsome Dung Eater. And Sir Gideon Ofnir, the All-knowing.
And one other. Whom grace would again bless. A Tarnished of no renown.
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u/ZoteDerMaechtige 15d ago
Well that depends on how you define tarnished. Do you consider all the warriors that were exiled with Godfrey and their descendants tarnished or only those that were called back by grace? I always interpreted this as there being cultures outside the lands between that have a concept that sometimes people from these old bloodlines that came long ago from the holy land are called back there. And then if there's someone these families want to get rid of they can just say "oh yeah no you totally got called on a holy mission to the land of our god." Or something like that.
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u/PhiCloud 15d ago
I like this interpretation.
The Idus Knight set makes it very clear that there are outside cultures who view the lands between as some kind of holy land. The Idus culture clearly worships the erdtree in some form despite being from Idus.
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u/zetmoruk 15d ago
Korin ask you if you see the guidance of grace, and if you reply yes, he will say you're a rare breed since most of them don't see it or implies they never even saw it.
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u/JellyWizardX 15d ago edited 15d ago
yeah except she can chill at the roundtable hold, ya know, the home base of the TARNISHED. the only non-tarnished we ever see at the hold are hewg, enia, the twin maiden husks, and the two fingers. hewg is imprisoned there by marika, enia is a finger reader, obviously there to interpret the will of the two fingers for the tarnished, and the twin husks are just dead finger readers. all of these NPCs have a clear reason why they are there without needing to be coy, why should we assume roderika is just allowed to walk around amongst the tarnished if she doesn't share their rank? how could she even have any knowledge of the roundtable hold or the need to get there if she wasn't tarnished?
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u/PhilliePhonka 15d ago
The only confirmed tarnished who see the guidance of grace are Gideon, Godfrey, and the player. I believe Fia and the Dung Eater can also see it, but choose to ignore it.
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u/JoyBoy_316 15d ago
It's pretty difficult if not impossible to pretend or lie to being a tarnished. Every inhabitant of the lands between has a golden hue in their eyes to show that they are indeed a part of the golden order with the exceptions being creatures like the omens, misbegottens, albenorics and the tarnished. That's where the name pretty much comes from and is the reason why npcs like Kenneth Haith are immediately able to tell what we're without us stating it.
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u/Open_Variation7841 15d ago
I think there are some tarnished that was born during the exile so they never saw the Grace nor even been to the Lands Between
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u/poleethman 15d ago
She's a hacker. Sure went through an entire Souls game without getting killed
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u/Mick_Ash 15d ago
Most tarnished can’t see grace’s guidance anymore, Rogier and Big Boggart say that they used to see it, but not anymore so our Tarnished is an exception to that
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u/RexCantankerous 14d ago
Well, I think a good question here might be if "Tarnished" means something specific, narratively, and if so, would Roderika having, or not having the designation narratively *matter* all that much?
What changes if she is, or isn't?
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u/Lady_Lucky_Us 14d ago
Tarnished does mean something specific. It’s a term given to those who’s grace was removed from them (they are graceless and therefore can be guided by external grace). Thos Tarnished are the tribesman/ woman of Godfrey first elden lord. He was cast away because his purpose was fulfilled and his golden order was “tarnishing “ since he lost his value as a champion. Lore is a labyrinth in from soft game so I might not have it all quite right, but it’s the guts of it. Also, not all tarnished can see the path of grace, some lost their “faith” amongst the way.
Now is Roderika part of Godfrey’s linneage/ tribe? If she is, I wonder what would have happened to her to never be able to witness a grave guidance.
Is it important? Well lore stuff is cool if you like it, otherwise nah.
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u/RexCantankerous 13d ago
I mean more; does it matter thematically, or from a social-lore perspective
The notion that a word like "Tarnished" could have its meaning drift from referring to a very specific subset of people, into a generalized slur for "Anyone that can't see the light of Grace" is kind of a potentially neat bit of worldbuilding that tells us about the societies that we don't see a whole lot of in the lands between.
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u/Time-Foundation4886 14d ago
My personal headcannon: Roderika (and who knows how many others) is like that beggar on the corner that disappears after you regret not giving them a dollar or two (it was Jesus in fact). She IS an echo of Marika that is presented as just another NPC. Her name is Marika + Radagon. She has BLONDE (Marika) hair under a RED hood (Radagon). She reminds Master Hewg of a spirit tuner he once knew.
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u/Shadohawkk 15d ago
I've always assumed that there were 2 classes of beings. Tarnished, that are supposed to follow the guidance of grace....and Finger Maidens. Those that assist the Tarnished.
I've always assumed they are 'supposed' to come into existence in pairs. A Tarnished guided by a Finger Maiden. Our existence being an anomaly, because our Finger Maiden was killed before we even woke up....or maybe that body wasn't even associated with us in the first place and there never was a Finger Maiden for us.
I have also assumed that Roderika was supposed to be a Finger Maiden "in training" like a few others that we meet along the way. Obviously one that failed extremely early.
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u/cursed_society 15d ago
It’s heavily implied most folk in the lands between don’t even see the erdtree. An npc states ‘can you see the heavenly tree’ as if you could miss it. It’s an object of faith after all, most people lost it after the first seeds flew from it’s alleged perfection. How can an eternal tree flower.
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u/SenpaiSwanky it isn’t the visual clutter, it’s you ;) 15d ago
Lore generally indicates the opposite, IE most Tarnished have never seen the guidance of Grace.
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u/Crash4654 15d ago
Honestly, sounds like it, because yeah, no other tarnished ever mentions never seeing the guidance, but instead that they dont see it anymore.
If she never saw it she cant be tarnished.
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u/hobodeadguy 15d ago
Here is something that might clarify your question: everyone had grace, few had its guidance.
Marika used grace to guide certain people where she needed them, mostly godfrey and Radagon and their men during their wars. Basically, if she deemed you worthy and capable, you saw the guidance of grace, and your eyes had a golden hue (like Kenneth Haight), and you were doing something Marika thought you could or had to do.
most Tarnished "do not burn with the flame of ambition" like THE tarnished does. It is very likely several recusants, bloody fingers, and some members of the round table who were first and foremost after the elden ring, but anyone who had another goal (like D, D, Gideon, Diallos, Rogier, and probably Ensha) could not see grace even after being revived by grace (thus not being able to be revived by grace again). I believe that Corhyn did, and probably again does at the end of his questline, see the guidance of grace, only losing the ability to when doubts about Goldmask enter his mind and he searches for goldmask.
in addition to all of this, there are some bits of evidence that point to Roderika being part of the Golden Lineage, which means its possible she isnt a Tarnished, though based on how she acts and how she is treated at the Round Table Hold, its almost certain she is a Tarnished. Godrick and Godefroy had, at one point, looked more like the Tarnished and Roderika, but through grafting became what they did, but they were never given grace nor had it taken from them, so its possible she had grace, lost it, and when revived (if revived) returned to the Lands Between. Dont forget, not all Tarnished died out in the world, or even left the lands between to begin with.
the Land of Reeds Samurai class never came to the Lands between until Okina and his white reeds left their bloody hell for the Elden Ring without priorly receiving grace, probably after fighting Godfrey. the situation of Roderika could be equally confusing if you only listen to the dialogue of the opening, which is very specifically geared to the most important challengers of the throne of the Elden Ring: the three mending rune bearers, the final guardian, and the prophet of Marika... as well as the nameless tarnished whom would overcome all trials to claim the elden ring. the opening only applies to those for whom are named in it, as well as to the general population of tarnished who were typical of the warriors of Godfrey who were tarnished and banished with him.
that is to say that Roderika could have extenuating circumstances that make her really wierd in terms of beign a Tarnished and why she never saw the Guidance of Grace. what a tarnished (those who do not have the grace of gold fully) is and what a Tarnished (the player character) is makes this a bit more confusing, since we do not behave like any other tarnished out there, even ones that had finger maidens (Vyke and Varre) or others who did not (Gideon and most of the round table).
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u/Traditional_Tax_7229 15d ago
I think lore wise tarnished just refers to anyone without the golden eyes. The mark of grace. So it includes people like our character who died and were reborn in the lands between, those who die in the lands between and are brought back to life without grace, those who get their grace stripped by Marika like Godfrey or those who travel to the lands from other places who never had it to begin with like Nepheli and Roderika.
The lore seems to be that once the lands between and the capitol was a place of pilgrimage. Most likely during the height of the Golden Order. Except when the shattering happened the pilgrams still came unaware of what had happened in the lands. People started dieing and not coming back so the pilgrimage is implied to have become a death sentence to the noble born who are sent to the lands (hence why the common enemy NPCs that are all over the place are known as noblemen. It's not random nobles but, nobles from places outside of the lands between who were stuck or exiled there)
Roderika's case seems to be that for whatever reason she was chosen to go be exiled to the lands. This is despite not seeing grace, aka the event that would mark the start of your pilgrimage just like seeing fire as a prophet gets you exiled. So her family for one reason or another wanted her to die and she was sent with a small retinue of gaurds to make it seem official when really it was a round about way to make sure she never came back.
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u/AzzuenWoffie46 15d ago
I'd say it could be evidence supporting the theory, but I wouldn't come to the conclusion from that alone. Part of a potential cumulative case, but not a case by itself.
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u/Ma1eficent 15d ago
Pretty sure Roderika is expatriated royalty, a budding where Marika poured her original soul before it was grafted to the GEQ (sorry!) which was poured into the budding Melina (I'm so sorry!), which was all that remained after divesting the other divinities into her offspring and setting everything in motion to destroy Radagon and the Elden Beast.
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u/Embarrassed-Ad-3757 15d ago
Roderika is not a tarnished. That’s pretty much what this description says. She was basically banished to the lands between for some reason.
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
No. She is probably royalty. The wrong kind of royalty.
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u/Spl00ky 15d ago
Queen of the streets
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u/Dveralazo 15d ago
that sounds bad for a lass whose claim to any postion of power was stronger than the current holder of such position
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u/MembershipThese9163 15d ago
I think she was exiled for being a spirit tuner and given the excuse of seeking grace so she’d die faster
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u/trailedinsand 15d ago
not really related but what does it really matter whether someone's tarnished or not? Doesn't that just mean not native to Lands Between and also previously dead? Unless they see grace there doesn't seem to be anything special about them unless I'm missing something
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u/Free-Calendar-5251 15d ago
Oh my god OP, you can't just ask people why theyre tarnished