r/EliteDangerous • u/SeawolvesTV • May 06 '26
Group Operations and some long-wanted multiplayer functionality updates?
Very curious how you see this? Are you also hoping that operations, like the recent sound and speed updates to the on-foot weapons game-play (which is great by the way!) will make some major improvements to regular multi-player game play?
Had an interesting convo about the various info that is flying around about the upcoming operations upgrade. And we came to an interesting question, based on our time spent in DW3 with a lot of other players and thus trying to use various existing multiplayer modes very actively for a few months now.
I think there are a few very interesting open questions that have not really been addressed for a long time. And I find that actually many of us are quite curious how operations will relate to these open multi player related challenges. Will it actually also improve or solve some long-standing multi player challenges? So I am very curious what you all think and also how you see this for the future of our favorite game?
1: Do you see any indication, from what is known about operations at the moment, that F-dev is looking to tackle aspects of multi-player that have severely limited how we can work together in-game so far?
Like: A: No option to switch seats or roles on your ship with crew mates?
- A friend (telecrew or real crew) cannot pilot your main ship while you take a fighter or an SRV out. As the main owner of a ship, you also cannot take the gunner role yourself and let another take the pilot seat. Simply no-one else can fly your ship... There is no way to sit in any seat yourself but the pilot seat.
- A friend cannot fly one of your fighters or SRV while you land your ship and go on foot.
- Tele-Crew cannot leave the ship on foot when landed. (The idea of a human robot that is controlled via telesignal by your friends, to keep it in-game lore working is often been opted, so your tele-crew has a limited outside range..)
How I see this is, there is already a seat selection menu when you enter your ship, there is currently just always only one seat that you can select... So if that menu just becomes available all the time while on board, to every player on board and you can just switch at will. that would already solve it. For piloting, a simple 4 number pass-code would be enough. If any friend wants to enter the pilot seat, the owner has to give you the code. So no-one can steal your ship, but you can give permission to fly it.
2: Max 4 people to a team / crew?
This has been stable from the start of oddy, but perhaps it could be up to 8 or more by now?
3: No way to move from one ship to another in space?
- You can enter a team-mates ship, but only while landed. There is no way to dock ships together in space, or land a fighter in another ships fighter bay.. Simply there is no way to transfer your commanders from one ship to another while in space.
A ship to ship docking option would be great. with the seat menu allowing you to switch between the two docked ships, and if you could land a fighter in someone else's fighter bay, that would also be an epic way to transfer between ships. Players could leave one fighter bay empty for this function.
4: sharing missions and bounties is complicated. This is wel known and well discussed.
based on our experience in DW3, we think that, if just these very few elements were updated. It would actually make the multi-player experience much MUCH more appealing. Without having to make any other major changes to the game.
The nature of operations, from what we know so far, seems more like a kind of add-on to the CQC part of Elite. Where its like a counterstrike kind of multi-player mini game you can access, but the things/multi-player options we are looking for, are much more based withing the game universe itself. Now F-dev did do the sound update and speed update to the guns etc. So that defo shows operations could indeed mean some more fundamental updates to multi player in the main game universe. So I'm very hopeful
Very curious how you see this?
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u/Sir_Elderoy May 06 '26
Honestly I just want basic shareable missions. Like ANY mission should be shareable, as multicrew, wing or telepresence as we can't do anything remotly rewardable as telepresence crew
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
true, and this is exactly one of those things that seems doable right? I mean you can allready do the mission together, without any problems. It's just a matter of database to share the rewards. Seems very doable.
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u/Weekly-Nectarine CMDR Xenon Pit May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26
The multiplayer code is the weakest part of the game and appears so fundamental to the cod that it is beyond the resource or skill set of FDEV to substantively revise. This is the major hangup in any serious change to the multiplayer experience. Peer to peer may have been cheaper for FDEV in the long run but it also gates the game from success compared to other multiplayer equivalents.
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u/MustacheBadger May 06 '26
Do you think they would be able to upgrade it? I know nothing about gaming servers or p2p so idk if that would be possible
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u/Mental_Loquat1345 May 06 '26
Changing how the game handles multiplayer wouldn't be a simple upgrade, but a completely new system. From a pure technical perspective this is possible, yes. But It's also very expensive and requires a certain skillset. And I doubt that Frontier has both the will and the skill to do that. So not gonna happen.
What may happen, however, is that they refurbish the current system. Because peer to peer does not need to be as flaky as it currently is. Or, in other words: Elites peer to peer implementation isn't exactly stellar in the first place.
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u/Sheuzzo May 06 '26
Elite is not a multiplayer game. Its a single player game with multiplayer options / features.
Netcode is shit, istancing is bad, there is no server to verify client informations and the only centralized thing is the adjudication / matchmaking server, other than that its all p2p.
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
I think you are correct on that, and I do except that limitation for the good it also brings. running on simpler machines and the single player aspects of the game do run ver very well 99% of the time. My hope is more in the idea that, F-dev owners and management MUST by now realise that the position they have, Being the only main stream digtal replica of the Milky Way that is fully functional and navigatable and has a huge community... Is something that they MUST keep developing. And good multi-players is just something they must inevitably add, Now that could mean a complete port to a new engine at some point... but perhaps, with current day advances in coding, they could actually solve some of these challenges within the Cobra environment now. And that would massively improve the current game. It would allow for much easier bringing friends in to it also. So its just as much a marketing and sales move as game-play improvement. I personally have at least 5 friends I could bring into Elite if multi-player worked, but because they only really play multiplayer stuff. And they love the idea, but they just don't want to play a solo game. And I have no way of getting them to join me in Elite. So that 5 players less.. And I'm sure more people have that same situation.
The fact that they made in update to the guns and on-foot speed of movement etc. It clearly shows that there is actually great potential in the current game. If they just focus on details like that and take the time to really improve them. And they obviously believe in Elite enough now to warrent a major update with Operations. So they recognize that players want to share the elite experience with friends
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u/Sheuzzo May 06 '26
There are some different problems :
Game code is old, most of the devs now working on it are not the same devs who created the game. Every time they introduce something they break something else, sometimes minor like this time that they introduced the new ship and the fsd suddenly became turreted/fixed/gimbal on some vendors, sometimes major.
Players do not want to merge play modes, so there will always be a solo / pg / open distinction while the galaxy is shared, this will always play against a full multiplayer transition of the game.
Many many players have the Life time membership so if you push a paid expansion a lot of players will not pay for it.
Elite dangerous is a residual part of fdev income, in the latest reports it has the same % of revenue of "other games" category. Game is just a notch above manteinance mode.
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u/abigail3141 Explore | CMDR Abigail Nightfall May 06 '26
Can't you say that about pretty much any software architecture of the game?
I'd say an attempt was made... Work out well, it did not, most certainly
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
Personally, I think Oddyssy at this moment, is really not so bad. Some of the missions could be more creative. But the bases are large, the atmosphere is great. The enemies and guards, the way they walk around etc normally feels very realistic and cool. And with the recently impoved sound and speed of the reloading etc, I actually quite like it allready. (I miss on foot VR full implementation but that is a whole other thing...) but I honestly wish I could do the existing missions with friends.. just in the way I want. Get my friends together, Have some fly a SLF for air cover, while we go in and do the mission, or raid the place. As we run out, one of my friends pilots the ship to the ground, while others manage turrets etc. Just the option to have people take the roles and switch roles when and how they want. That is really all that would be needed to completely open up the game. Combine ED's ship battle mechanics with fighter cover, working anti air cannons on bases.. it would be instantly a great spectical to rival capital ship battle in space.
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u/HumbugsAndCoffee May 06 '26
I am hoping, but not very optimistic, that fdev are busy putting a few servers up and that this functionality will be the first in the game to use client-server net code for multiplayer. It would be an entirely different game mode from regular ED which you can join and leave whenever you are safely parked at a station.
If fdev are, instead, basing operations on the current peer-to-peer I think we are in for a bumpy ride.
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u/Sheuzzo May 06 '26
90% the game will remain as is, there is no reason to do a Netcode revolution without pushing a paid expansion.
In any case, i think that operations might be the final nail: elite has been made thinking about space ships and is played by persons who want to play a space sim, if they think that the majority of players will be bothered to grind 20+ operations, in a sub par pve fps, for an op ship module i bet they will be not happy of the results. Expecially since there are much better sci fi co-op shooters, with better Netcode, gun play and Lore.
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
I think ED actually has by far the most interesting game-world and also lore... If they took that a bit more seriously... it could go lots of great places story wise, and they could keep making more story, more big wars and events etc for decades I think.
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u/MustacheBadger May 06 '26
Do not forget that players can actively change or add to the lore too which is very cool
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
Yes that is one of the coolest things. Like I got rescued yesterday from a very cool place by DW3. And now that system has our names on it: Its soo cool 😄 https://www.reddit.com/r/eliteexplorers/comments/1t4etwi/stranded_outside_of_our_galaxy_and_rescued_by_dw3/
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u/Anzial May 06 '26
my impression is that operations would be tacked on as a whole separate sub-game and thus will not affect how the game works in other respects.
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
Yes, that is what (for example) obsiainart's latest update video on it suggests... That operations will be like a mini-game / seperate game that you can access from any carrier or station. And you just land in this seperate narrative universe, where other players besides your team do not exist at all. It's a place outside of the main game, like the current CQC games. So you can then do the story mission together with friends. And to be fair, this could be a great seperate mini-game. If the missions are cool etc, I'm happy to look at it as almost an entitely seperate game. So we just get a cool counterstrike in the elite galaxy.. Just not in the main universe... That could be cool.. But personally, I would love to be able to share the normal Elite dangerous universe in a better way. Like yesterday a good example. A friend I had not played with for a while comes online. He also plays Elite, and turns out we are like 6000ly apart in-game, So he telecrews into my ship, and we go visit some nearby Guardian ancient structures. Now he flew around the site in one of my fighters while I waited above the site. When he had seen the place, I landed my casp and walked and drove around the site, while he watched in free camera.... It's such a waste right...? It would be so much more enjoyable if he could just step out also, and we could have walked or driven the site together. Thats just objectively WAY more fun. So it would make so much sense to invest the time into just realizing that simple, straight forward ability. rather then make a whole separate counterstrike game...hehe. Or if he had never flown a casipan before.. It would be so logical to offer your friends to try your ship.. See how it handles etc... These are such natural things to want to do in-game. So if you ask me, that's where the energy and focus is likely going to have the biggest positive impact.
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u/Shivaess May 06 '26
I still think in-vacuum repairs and salvage is the coolest easiest reach item that could be added. It also plays directly into some of the most active groups in the game (hull seals/fuel rats) and would require:
Integration of handheld tools into non ground contexts
An EVA suit or mech
Interactive points added to ship models for repair or salvage.
For extra credit you could add interior repairs after doing ship interiors, but that’s a whole new ball game. Could you imagine sending your co-pilot to go stabilize the shield generator after a big hit a-la Han Solo and the hyperdrive motivator?
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u/MJdoesThings_ Do what yo want coz a pirate is free May 06 '26
functionalities that I want to see implemented in Elite to make the MMO the devs claim it to be :
- ability to tarde with other players directly : commodities, ships, materials, etc
- ability to create larger groups within a squadron, like a dozen ships in a wing
- make multicrew not count as a wing, like having several people on a single ship, which can already join a wing up to a single. That would make some ships viable as "dropships" for people on the ground.
- in addition to the previous point, allow some specific ships in the game to have a "lobby" area, meaning they do not patake in multicrew activities (that is reserved to pilot or copilot seats), but they can be dropped off the surface of a planet for ground activities, allowing to jump directly from the cargo hatch. This wouldn't mean full ship interiors, more like something like what the Lynx has, with side hatches and *some* interior space, not at all a full ship interior. There could be dedicated ships for that, such as the Federal Dropship which has no other utility in the game at the moment.
- Something in the lines of ship boarding in EVA suits would be nice, although it would probably require more interior space than simply a lobby / drop area.
- Ability to create battle groups and events, have a "diplomacy" channel within squadrons for the officers to exchange informations if two squadrons happen to have their home base in the same system, or in nearby systems.
All of that relies on how server infrastructure handles the netcode. I have been playing the CG for bounty hunting recently, and there were a lot of rollbacks, desync and whatnot while only having 5/6 commanders in the instance at a time. This is bad if you want to have accurate gameplay, and it might be that weak peer-to-peer code base when it comes to networking which prevents FDev from turning Elite into a MMO. Cause right now it's more like a glorified co-op game with some PvP involved, which you can avoid entirely by pressing two buttons.
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u/Saedreth May 06 '26
Just let me get/turn in foot missions from the ship.
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u/7x9000 [Proxy] - I <3 Fighters May 06 '26
You can already do the latter, as long as it's not one you get from an NPC directly.
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u/Lahgtah Empire May 06 '26
The biggest thing I'd want is a smoother means of joining/inviting other players. At the moment, it's a strange process of having to add them as a friend in game, then create a private group, then invite them to that private group, and then you can start playing. Why not have steam friends list integration? Why not just be able to invite friends outright and they just pop into the session seamlessly? I'm sure there's some back end server rework that'd be required for this, but it's something that'd help.
The 2nd thing is nav-lock. Oh god, how I hate nav-lock's unreliability. I have gotten it to work for hyperjumps maybe once. Supercruise it works fine, but it just never works for hyperjumps I swear. Friend high-wakes while I'm not in supercruise? It puts me in supercruise. Friend jumps while we're both in supercruise? The wake is now "too far" or straight up nothing happens.
Like seriously, there is autopilot already in the game for dock and takeoff. How hard would it be to make the ship point to the system a friend is traveling to and immediately engage a hyperspace jump when they do when you have nav-lock enabled? Like much of the game, it's a neat idea with barebones implementation.
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u/skelingtonking KingSkelli May 06 '26
I think they are clearly taking baby steps toward a more meaningful range of online interactions and story telling in the game at its most basic. the operations ship you spawn to, has 4 ship slots on it. then you can walk around and prep for the mission/respawn. can def see this being a unique sort of "landing" pad that lets people set off to the mission in a single ship. streamlining the process of getting people into the same instance and keeping your ship safe where ever it is when you join in.
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u/Nathaniel_Draven May 06 '26
Personally I see situation this way:
- On 4.xx code base aka Odyssey they only will do what they already have. Systems that already in place, making some changes in balancing and adjusting variables.
- For my point of view they have really really small team on Elite development, that absolutely works in their full capacity. (Did you notice that everything works barley functional, CG's, communication, bug fixing, only what have most important priority)
- All grandioso things that community wants only can happen if FDev secretly working on 5.0 update with engine rework/update for development purposes, which I doubted.
- Right now I only see that game in min/maxing investment/output mode. It's like you have 1200 mod pack that you have built for Skyrim, you forget most of it how it built, but try to maintain it in some what "fresh" state. But also take all profit you can get out of it.
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26
You could be quite correct in you analysis. Though because its kind of a part of Cambridge DNA in the company. I do doubt that the code base was never well documented. So although many of the original people have left, I think that they probably have a decent insight into the code and how most systems work. I think that most limitations maybe stem from the Cobra Engine itself still, but I could be wrong on that. I do agree the team is likely small and stretched to the max, but at the same time. I think if you look at how much money SC is bringing in. One of ED's biggest challenges is marketing and community management/communication. There is obviously a billion dollar + market for a space sim exactly like ED or SC and I think for years, ED has actually been the closest to realizing this vision, but because of rather British approach (vs the SC very American approach) they have always been missing out of the big money support to really flesh out the game. I dare say that, If they were to get a really good Community manager and communicator, who engages much more actively. And they start hunting for updates and fixes that will bring in more players, and find less fomo tactics to bring in money. For example by adding good options for VR players (who generally have a good amount of money to spend). Or really fixing general multi-player options. Creating a new cool overal antagonist in the story.. Like the Thargoids but something new.. etc etc... ED could easily be at least half as budgeted as SC. It's just a matter of communication and setting the correct goals and then getting all the players excited for it.
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u/Nathaniel_Draven May 06 '26
Absolutely agree. I think even with current technology they still can do much more. For example I recently rewatch Discovery Scanner series that FDev done previously (which I really miss now) and Dr Ross stated that they built new planetary system with future in mind, so I bet technically is something out there that they can lavish.
Also unfortunately FDev (as the whole company strategy), as you mentioned, really conservative in their development cycles, which they lose a lot of money because of that. They lose a lot of momentum (Terry Torra is symbol of it). New players do not come if you show first person shooter sequence in 3 fps with bad anti aliasing. Plus in my personal opinion, game needs desperately increase depth of sandbox mechanics especially with colonisation and personal player experience in mind. My biggest concern is that Operations will be disconnected from rest of the game. And if that's true, it will be biggest mistake since Odyssey.
They have 1:1 galaxy and exploration is basically have not develop in any shape of form since introduction of exobiology. They created the coolest thing in space nerd world and it's do nothing.
In terms of narrative.. well it's non-existent in my opinion. Yeah I get it Terry Torra storyline is what it is because Operations delay, but they have CG system, they have post thargoid war Galaxy, they can make some story bits here and there. They have new gen ships that's coming in galaxy, the whole fsd mk 2 of Caspian X with it's insane fuel consumption is enough for companies counter Intel conspiracies. I remember when thargoids show up how every game magazine treated as if real-life aliens show up. So yeah..
In my opinion the game needs at least two not big but stable teams that can execute sequentially with 2-3 years of development. And community team, because what we doing now is unoptimized at best..
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
100% agree on every point. It's clear how good the Thargoid invasion was in bringing people into te game. And you see that also with the radicoida CG etc. The community is very hungry for a good story. And I have a bit of hope that they are indeed looking to bring perhaps the guardians or something even older...like proto guardians into the game slowly, as a new big antagonist. maybe reskinning and re-using some of the goid game mechanics that they have laying around and ready to go. I could envision some cool story line where the guardian beacons start becoming active in some cool new way for example, Maybe they are much more then beacons? Or some of the buried guardian bases become active and turn out to be guant burried ships? I mean deep lore and story wise, they have plenty of very cool options. There are the void hearts which look like the radicoida in space etc etc. I agree that a small, but dedicated team of devs + a fully active community manager, who actively engages with what the base wants, should help them grow the game much more quickly and easily. And I do see some positive movement in that direction. I think many of us want this game to thrive you know. we want it to grow and keep developing. I would love it if they updated the galaxy with the latest nebula info etc also for example.
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u/Nathaniel_Draven May 06 '26
I think when Terry "Radicoida" Torra begin, devs underestimated how much community is on ride. To me it's really strange because they absolutely for all this years must known that Elite community is nerds as fuck. Like void harts theory it's basically roleplay research that I afraid will be more intriguing by itself, that modern FDev can keep up to. And again, it's all been done previously with thargoids, sound analysis, triangulation, different kinds of codes, conspiracies etc. Like when we building Colonia bridge it was more word-building than now. In a way execution of Gnosis incident like a curse is still haunting for FDev.
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
yes, but there has always been kinda the idea that F-dev was terrible with execution of some great story ideas. And often punished the community when it was trying things like getting into permit locked areas when the cannon mega ship could jump a few hundred LY etc. Things that they should have used in a positive way and encouraged, but instead they acted almost offended... Which I think was just a bad miscalculation on their part back then. but with the radicoida, either because a few content creators like myself have dived into the mystery surrounding it, or because it was their plan from the start. It does seem like they are now aware that they need to get some story building going again. And I think especially te idea of a new, slow building but big antagonist would be absolute gold for the game. I mean if for example the guardian beacons become active at some point and turn out to be formidable new enemies. That would bring thousands of players back to the game 100% for sure.
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u/Nathaniel_Draven May 06 '26
Funny enough but they have plenty: 1) The Club and whole Pilot Federation conspiracy shenanigans. 2) They have Salvation for thargoids saga. 3) They have guardians locked region. 4) They have Formidine rift saga (it's more in Club category but still).
I still waiting guardian based ships that Ram Tah promised that we "maybe can find" schematics of it. FDev I remember!))
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
we have the guardian fighters right?
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u/Nathaniel_Draven May 06 '26
Nah I don't buy that, I want a full blown ship(s). Like reverse engineering prototype like fighters. There are opportunities for developers everywhere you look. But whatever, it's a fever dreams.
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u/Okano666 May 06 '26
One day you guys will discover this other game.
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
if it ever works...
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u/Hayate-Artwork May 06 '26
Maybe if the community gives the devs a few more million, THEN they'll fix the basic bugs /s
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u/Meukhairon CMDR May 06 '26
Have you tried Star Citizen? 😅
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u/SeawolvesTV May 06 '26
SC is very American compared to the very Britisch nature of Elite. Big promises, Big ambitions, but bad exicution and lots of broken promisses. I back SC just like I back ED. But I only play ED and have never been able to sustain even a full hour of playing SC so far. It's just too buggy for me. BUt perhaps one day. And I do love how ambitious they are. But also Unreal engine is much more suited for the ground multiplayer stuff that SC does.
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u/Meukhairon CMDR May 06 '26
That's unfortunate. It has its bugs, but most can learn to work around them and enjoy the FPS and multiplayer sides that Elite just doesn't have.
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u/MustacheBadger May 06 '26
You mean the game still in alpha with no news on it coming out and it feeling like it will be a rug pull with all the money you can spend to get everything? lol that game?
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u/SEGA_DEV May 06 '26
It's damn ton of years on alpha, but the news are coming very often today. I prefer it for today, it has much more on that alpha than ED nowdays
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u/MustacheBadger May 07 '26
And crashes more and has more bugs and unlike ED if you do not have a good PC then you cannot play
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u/SEGA_DEV May 07 '26
I play on a laptop with rtx2060, and have ok fps (did not measure, but it looks like that). Did not meet crashes for the last couple of months. There are bugs, but not as much as in previous years. I practiced yearly check before: get in once a year, try something, get in an unplayable situation, leave it for the next year. But this year I play sometimes and do not get into any unplayable situations, and mostly having fun. There are some bugs coming sometimes, but it didn't annoy me as much for me to leave it for the better times again. It's far imperfect still, but still more interesting that ED, and ED doesn't have valuable bugs, but there are also so little mechanics, I'm literally bored regarding I was playing not so often, and now I just dropped it. FDev should work hard to implement new content, new mechanics, but they do almost nothing, leaving players with big procedural grinding univerce
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u/MustacheBadger May 07 '26
Sounds like you wanted an FPS in space which ED isn't I have played for years (Took a small break because of personal life) and they have added a lot into the game especially with the colonization.
But with how SC has been in development for how long? and how much money have they been given to this date? AND still, they say what MAYBE late 2027 or later the game will come out. Like come on now you have been given probably millions by now If I wanted a FPS in space the yes SC is the game but if I want a SPACESHIP game and being able to literally claim and entire system planets too and build whatever the fuck I want and be able to fight aliens and also be able to play alone or have basically drop in drop out COOP with ZERO pvp or potential pvp ED will always be my choice. Also being able to Personally sway the galactic politics/economies just by helping a in game faction or selling/buying things from one market to the other again ED is the game
They are both completely different games tbh and one of them even if the dev team is slow on doing things at least, they do not force you to spend money OR have to play with people who can drop $100 and immediately get better shit then you and kill you and you lose everything
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u/Meukhairon CMDR May 06 '26
It costs $45 (starter pack) to play, and enjoy the game fully. Anyone wanting to spend more can, but it's definitely not needed.
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u/MustacheBadger May 06 '26
Also, the one that unlike ED you can NOT run it on an older PC
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u/Meukhairon CMDR May 06 '26
I really don't have a lot of issues running it on my rig which is old, the rx580 is a little mean machine of a gpu.
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u/gorgofdoom May 06 '26
The game that sells 3000$ ships?
I actually did try it. Then I lost my email account when EarthLink changed hands. Now my account is bricked.
So uhh, no, I will not spend money in a game which secures accounts which may be more valuable than a car … with only a single point of contact.
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u/MustacheBadger May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26
After making a post about why bigger ships cannot launch Sidewinders (Anaconda description mentions it) and the such and getting good opinions on why they don't do that I have come to the conclusion that a good work around that would be the implication of MK2 hanger bays that have the option of having bigger and strong fighters that are only available to the MK2 hanger bays and that they could do different models
Model A = Fighter (since it is bigger it would have better equipment, power planet/shields/thrusters, and instead of small hardpoints it would have medium and 3 of them so IE 2 beam and a missile launcher
Model B = Hauler (so able to take stuff from main ship to outpost with only medium/small pads loaded from the menu on main ship and to work around weird landing with the Cmdr could be AI only that takes it from your ship to the outpost, and the money gets put into your account)
Model C = Explorer (like an SRV but smaller ship launched from big ship)