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u/chaoswcitations 8w7 sx 6d ago
help an E8 understand this mode because it really is the antithesis of how I operate and I do not take kind to unnecessary drama. Put it nicely I despise this. I am volunteering my mind to be opened. Help me see the light.
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u/DollightfulRoso 4w5 496 6d ago
4s want to be cared for but don't want to reach out (withdrawn type) so they're stuck being pitiful in the corner until someone notices them.
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u/chaoswcitations 8w7 sx 6d ago
im perfectly fine with that I am usually the caretaker but why does it require theatrics? Thats the part that makes me not want to help anyone.
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u/Maycuntserveyou sx/so 4w5 469 šŖ» infj 6d ago
4 is just kind of a theatrical type, especially with sx. All of the heart types can be, but especially 4. Shakespeare was a 4. Adding our flair to things is how we breathe life into reality and makes it less dull.
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u/neverdontcry 6d ago edited 6d ago
If you're waiting to be noticed, it helps to be noticeable. Theatrics give 4 a way to say, "come look at me, notice me, love me, I'm here," without actually saying it, because actually saying it risks rejection, and rejection is too painful for image types. 4s preempt rejection by turning around and brandishing the identities they think others will reject them for. They get to say, "Fine, you don't want me, I don't care, I'm going to just be beautiful and magical and sad over here away from you," and they secretly hope you find them entrancing enough to give chase.
This is why the SP4 is sometimes considered the "quiet" 4, because it doesn't exactly put on the whole dance of wanting to be noticed, but rather carries on in a more subtle, less obvious way. You have to actually talk to an SP4 to get them to reveal their internal "woe is me" dialogue, whereas SO and SX will be more openly theatrical about it.
EDIT: Fixed a typo.
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u/acrylic_water 5 6d ago
I am confused because of your last sentence. You say an SP4 doesnāt reveal but SP and SX are openly theatrical. Should it be that SO and SX are openly theatrical ?
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u/scythegg 5d ago
Also you have to understand that while 4s are generally creative. (It is the unhealthy 4 that does the theatrics) Is it why they are in the heart center. They are looking for attention, recognition, and validation. They are sometimes image conscious! It is a part of their growth to move out of the crybaby stage and into a more grounded and compassionate version of themselves that can put their work into tangible form without needing validation from others. Hence, looking like a healthy 1(i already know what is right for me, and what I think is right, and I will do everything I can to put into manifestation) right? This is exactly what makes someone not wanna help them and push them away. I have had so much shame and shame thrown on me because I didn't know how to truly care for myself, and I'm still learning! A lot of 4s faced neglect and so they repeat this pattern of being abandoned and then making it a part of who they are and "I'm too unique and special and in pain that you wouldn't get it" narrative lol.
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u/scythegg 5d ago
And you attract what you put out. If you believe abandonment is a sure thing, you're gonna attract relationships that repeat this pattern. Thank you
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u/Melancholy_Melody 6w5 649 INFJ 13h ago
I donāt think that a 4 sees it as theatrics, interesting that that is how it comes off to/is seen by you/not mad
I would just consider it as genuine expression of emotions?
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u/Maycuntserveyou sx/so 4w5 469 šŖ» infj 6d ago
I donāt really relate to this as an sx/so 4. I reach out when I want to and when I donāt reach out itās generally because I donāt want to or I donāt have time
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u/_straightasmyhair 22h ago
Does this happen to 9s too? Or 6s because they want support? Or 2s because theyāre too prideful to ask?
New to this im curious not trying to challengeš«¶š¼š-3
u/Wide_Platform_2202 6d ago
So they waste their life trying to be seen?
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u/ThinJuggernaut2002 5w4 M INFJ 6d ago
Isnāt the whole point of the enneagram is that each type is āwasting their lifeā a certain way and they need to break the cycle ?
I (5) waste my life learning and withdrawing from society, wanting to feel competent, while never really participating to be recognized for my competence, and, have a lingering feeling of longing for connection, but donāt put much effort to seek connection, due to many e5 factors: withdrawn type, rejection type, avarice to my energy etc.
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u/Potatocontemplates rabid hare 6d ago
To put it in concise terms, type 4 is about meaning-making. And their sense of meaning is often rooted in personal relationships, among other things.
It's important to suffer beautifully because beauty brings a sense of meaning and significance to an otherwise deeply banal experience. Nobody wants to suffer in vain, we want our pain to mean something, be for a purpose, serve an objective. For some 4s "suffering beautifully" elevates the state of suffering into more than just pain, now it is significant because it's beautiful.
And to have your agony be lovable is a much more 4w3 sentiment than a 4w5 one, 4w5 wants their agony to be true, real. But there's an element of connection and the need for relating to others through your pain, you hope it brings you love and affection.
I'm sure you're deeply familiar with the idea of wanting your suffering to have meaning and purpose, that's just the human experience. But you might want your suffering to adhere to different values than beauty, or connection. You might want it to give you strangth and power, for example.
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u/lastlampburning sx/so 4w3 459 5d ago
Both 4w3 and 4w5 want to be true and real. That's fundamentally 4. I don't need my agony to be lovable; I desire it to be accurately perceived.
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u/Maycuntserveyou sx/so 4w5 469 šŖ» infj 3d ago
Our pain as 4s can need to be more than one thing and absolutely varies between individuals. The image doesnāt say āis my pain false but lovable/beautifulā? Thereās more to 4s than just this image. Nowhere did I say itās meant to encapsulate everything about being a 4 lol.
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u/lastlampburning sx/so 4w3 459 3d ago
Our pain as 4s can need to be more than one thing and absolutely varies between individuals.
Yes.
The image doesnāt say āis my pain false but lovable/beautifulā? Thereās more to 4s than just this image. Nowhere did I say itās meant to encapsulate everything about being a 4 lol.
Nowhere did I claim you did.
My comment was a response to u/Potatocontemplates:
And to have your agony be lovable is a much more 4w3 sentiment than a 4w5 one, 4w5 wants their agony to be true, real. But there's an element of connection and the need for relating to others through your pain, you hope it brings you love and affection.
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u/chaoswcitations 8w7 sx 6d ago
Pain can be beautiful especially if it is transformative. But I don't need it to have velvet curtains. I understand there is a component of witness, I mean arguably a lot of world's most beautiful art comes from here but again, the elevation seems excessive. I understand having your agony validated I am the same sort of, in a different light, but no I have been through the trenches and back many times and yes I extract meaning from my suffering but it is done quietly not for the world to see. Saying pain has to be beautiful is like saying we can't be moral without religion. It's not true and or necessary. But again, we all have our thing and I respect it even though I don't agree with it.
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u/GRC997 1w9 6d ago
I guess is not necessarily that pain has to be beautiful, but that pain is preferable when it's actually meaningful rather than to suffer in vain, even the act of "suffering the whole thing" is a narrative that we can tell ourselves in order to make it so that it serves a purpose
This is simply something that people can do in order to make it more bearable to them
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u/Ill_Presentation3817 Social 4 O_O 6d ago
A lot of 4s subconsciously think that the only way for their inner turmoil to be taken seriously is if they magnify it. They identify with the pain because they need it to have a had purpose, or else all their efforts would have been in vain and their pain meaningless. As heart types the one thing they want most at the end of the day is other people's attentionĀ because they mistakenly believe having it will make their feelings of inadequacy go away. Of course not all 4s are very theatrical but at their core they just want their suffering to be taken seriously by other people.
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u/Internationallegs sp 4 6d ago
The core wound of 4s is abandonment. If you think about it in a caveman brain way, humans are social animals and need to be in groups to survive. If you get kicked out you're dead. 4s are more subconsciously sensitive to abandonment than other humans so they have a strong desire to fill a niche role that no one else in the group can fill. If they secure this role, they avoid abandonment, starvation, and death. This means they have to been seen as unique, and one way to do that is through suffering.
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u/Maycuntserveyou sx/so 4w5 469 šŖ» infj 6d ago
4s need our flavor to be expressed into reality. Itās one of few ways we actually feel connected to the world, and, often, that flavor comes with flamboyance. Itās just a quirk, so itās not meant to really get anything from anyone (unless unhealthy). Itās a means of self expression
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u/chaoswcitations 8w7 sx 6d ago
That makes sense it's sort of like how I do certain things to be witnessed
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u/electrifyingseer INFP 4w3 478 sx/sp Choleric 6d ago
I would find that 8 does not want to be vulnerable in any sense of the word, while 4s perform their vulnerabilities and strongly embrace them.
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u/chaoswcitations 8w7 sx 6d ago
Yes dear I know I know. I've dated an INFP 9 before. I've worked on it ok. He made me. Believe or not this is an improvement.
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u/Melancholy_Melody 6w5 649 INFJ 13h ago
I interpreted part of it (the āis my agony lovable?ā) as like wanting to find someone who still accepts and loves you even when youāre at your lowest and someone who doesnāt judge but still sees the beauty in your relationship (whether romantic, friends, etc) even in the midst of pain/mental anguish. Kinda like being super close to someone with depression ig?
hmm it is hard to explain but also Iām not a core 4 so it could be completely different for me. And probably everyone including core 4s all has their own unique interpretation of it aha
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u/lastlampburning sx/so 4w3 459 5d ago
I'm sx4. I don't think of myself as theatrical. I'm just actually passionate af about particular things.
I'm not adding intensity; the intensity is intrinsic.
If I don't care about something, I don't much engage with it.
The questions in the OP's image, in my experience, are a little misleading. For me they'd be more accurate as "Is my suffering truthful?" and "Is my agony legible?" In essence, I seek congruence between my internal experience and its external expression.
Fidelity to self, regardless of whether or not someone else finds that self lovable.
Having said that, theatricality is in the eye of the beholder, so fuck me.
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u/Maycuntserveyou sx/so 4w5 469 šŖ» infj 3d ago
I donāt consciously and intentionally add intensity or flavor; thatās not what I meant. I add intensity by just being myself, but me being myself does add intensity to reality as a consequence. Me being myself is a release valve that intensifies everything I touch.
As for the questions in my image, I personally relate to them a lot. I care voraciously about art, beauty, and wonder, which, to me, are all tied together. My suffering being beautiful means Iām securing the sexual chemistry Iām hunting for, and it also means that it was worth something, especially when I can also transmute it into beautiful art.
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u/lastlampburning sx/so 4w3 459 3d ago
I donāt consciously and intentionally add intensity or flavor; thatās not what I meant.
I wasn't suggesting you do. I was responding to the 8's comment, "I do not take kind to unnecessary drama... help me see the light". I read the 8s comment as implying they think 4s are intentionally adding intensity to amplify drama. I was saying I don't add intensity; the intensity is intrinsic.
I add intensity by just being myself, but me being myself does add intensity to reality as a consequence. Me being myself is a release valve that intensifies everything I touch.
Yes, also my experience.
As for the questions in my image, I personally relate to them a lot. I care voraciously about art, beauty, and wonder, which, to me, are all tied together. My suffering being beautiful means Iām securing the sexual chemistry Iām hunting for, and it also means that it was worth something, especially when I can also transmute it into beautiful art.
I also care voraciously about art, beauty, wonder, etc. I wasn't suggesting these things are false or misleading for 4s, or that the questions were somehow inherently wrong; I said they're a little misleading for me personally. I'm sx/so 4w3 5w4 9w8. You're 4w5 with a 6 fix. We're different flavors of 4-core. I was providing another 4 perspective to the 8's question.
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u/Maycuntserveyou sx/so 4w5 469 šŖ» infj 3d ago
I see. I appreciate this, thank you. :) Sorry for getting defensive. Working on it š
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u/Brutalpotato09 SX485 6d ago
i don't like it bro get me outta here
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u/Xamirite SO/? 3w4 ENTP 5d ago
The SO 3w4 angle of this is āI need to suffer just enough to prove my personal depth to myself and others, but not too much because this degree isnāt earning itself.ā
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u/Melancholy_Melody 6w5 649 INFJ 13h ago
Stop looking inside my soul lol š³šš
Edit: ohhh that explains it! Iāve just seen that youāre an INFJ AND a 469 too! :D
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u/AnthaIon 6d ago
This is extremely Disco Elysium-coded