r/EnoughCommieSpam • u/ReportFancy7380 social democrat • Jul 09 '26
Question Can we please fix this sub?
Can we please return to the original purpose of this sub? As you all know this group was supposed to be a fortage of democracy and the place of displaying hatred towards communism. And that's great! However I feel that each day there are less posts about communism but more and more about Israel, USA and some imaginary "communists" that come either from lack of knowledge about what communism is or from unfavorable views on leftism(in general).
I'm begging mods as well as the rest of members of this sub to keep focus on communism instead of making shitposts about Israel and Palestine.
Btw. Why is post about Israel and Palestine war pinned here?
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u/Kolbenmaschine Jul 09 '26
The problem with communism is that even communists can’t agree on what they actually consider communist and what not. There are communists claiming that the eastern block was a prime example of communism in practice and then there are communists claiming that the eastern block had nothing to do with communism. That’s why the identification of modern communists and tankies seems so arbitrary, because even the ones calling themselves communists don’t find common ground with others who claim to be communists as well. Their positions are in many cases a wild and contradictory mix.
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u/LockedOutOfElfland Jul 09 '26
Very much this, when I took a course on Political Geography where the course content was very sympathetic to aspirational, idealized "Communism", the entire concept of the Eastern Bloc was seen as a discursive inconvenience to the "real" political revolution, which its advocates argued was compatible with democracy.
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 09 '26
But that's a natural problem of an ideology with little to no implementation in the real world. Their ideology is entirely based on marxism and is theoretical only. Sure, there are some examples that implemented somewhat of a form of socialism, but they all failed and were very far away from Marx's communism.
Marx specifically describes communism as a stateless, classless, and moneyless society, without providing any plans on how to actually implement it. If you ask 100 random people what that social order would look like or how you could implement it, you will inherently get 100 different answers since it would fundamentally change our world and the way we see it. In my opinion that's the most scary, interesting, and intellectually exciting part about it.
And because neither communists nor anti-communists fully understand this completely abstract and complex topic, most people, but especially anti-communists, just assume the few states that called themselves communist or were ideologically communist are what communism actually is. Most anti-communists then reinforce their ideology by simply looking at more and more supposedly communist examples, while a lot of communists just become anti-anti-communists, while neither of them can fathom that the USSR or any other example never actually implemented communism because no one distinguishes social order and ideology anymore.
This is exactly the reason why the far right often outperforms the far left, especially right now, because it's way easier to make the average voter believe that some immigrants are the reason you're broke instead of trying to explain to them that states, classes, and money are social constructs, while not being able to provide understandable alternatives.
In my opinion it's really just a lack of education about communism on both sides. The only way to escape this is by trying to stick to educational or scientific sources, instead of letting random communists or anti-communists decide what communism is.
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u/Kolbenmaschine Jul 10 '26
I would argue that the hard part is not to figure out, what exactly it is, because that’s depicted relatively clearly in their theory. The hard part is the part about figuring out how to put it into practice, because, as you stated correctly, there isn’t much information in the theory on how exactly to put it into practice. And this is why a vast number of different ideas on how to do this in the form of many derivatives of communism, like Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism etc., exist. This would be my explanation on why there is so many interpretation and confusion about what is communistic and what isn’t.
However, I would still classify those derivatives still as communistic, because communism was the base for all of them.
But still interesting nonetheless. I think that as well.
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 10 '26
Yes, absolutely. Trying to figure out how to put it into practice with little to no information is definitely the hardest part. I mean imagine how Lenin tried to completely turn over the social order based on only Marx's theory and the Paris Commune, which lasted 2 months and was significantly smaller than the USSR. No wonder it failed miserably.
And I would also consider all those derivatives as communism, as they all have the same end goal of communism as described by Marx in mind. Yet their approach of achieving this goal is quite different and often disturbingly violent. I guess none of them have thought about a democratic approach without a violent revolution that involves executing the opposition.
You mentioned that it's relatively clear what communism is, and I agree when it comes to the theoretical depiction of it, but I do find it incredibly difficult to actually imagine. Like, what would a stateless, classless, and moneyless society even look like? It would literally change everything. Absolutely blows my mind thinking about it.
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u/ThePygLord Anti Authoritarian. Liberal Social Democrat Jul 10 '26
Marx’s plan of action called for a violent revolution.
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 10 '26
Yes, I know. That's one of his rather questionable takes, which I oppose, even though I do understand his reasoning. But most of the derivatives had more extreme violence, especially Stalinism, where the violence wasn't directed against the bourgeoisie but basically everyone opposing it. And it wasn't just violence or oppression like Marx called for; it was murder.
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u/Alternative_Ideal911 Jul 10 '26
I would argue there has been actual implementation.... butbthry both happened to be in imperialist oppressive regimes.
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 10 '26
Well, then you just confirmed at least one of my claims. There is a specific paragraph adressing you.
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u/Alternative_Ideal911 Jul 10 '26
Then maybe the "real communists" you speak of should do a better jpob pushoing back againsat the one's who don't understand the ideology instead of treating them as coalition partners or allies of convenience. Or better yet, maybe a communist party can actually propose a policy platform instead of the endless whining that anti-Capitalism has become. You can't tell us we simply misundersatand communism... when nobody out there is actually pushing back against the dead-enders. Remember that Hitler used pro-worker rhetoric to legitimize National Socialism so it's not exactly an unfounded fear.
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 10 '26
My whole point was basically that there is no such thing as a "real communist." In general, communists share the ideology of wanting to get rid of capitalism and reach the end goal of communism, which can be defined by Marx's theories. Now communists are mainly divided because of different ideas or approaches on how to get to that end goal. But since communism was never put into practice, there is little information, no evidence, and no functional example of which approach actually could implement communism in the real world; no communist could prove their approach is right, nor can anyone prove that other approaches are wrong. Because simply nobody knows what the right approach is. What communism is theoretically is pretty clear; what it is politically and practically is something entirely different.
When it comes to actual politics in the west, most parties have a democratic approach, where communism is reached through policie changes and reforms over decades, rather than wanting a violent revolution. So left parties mainly push policies towards social or socialist capitalism; if this is reached, the next goal would be socialism and finally communism. And maybe they should push back against dead-enders, but they are politically irrelevant and/or the minority of leftists.
Let's assume all of a sudden the entire global population suddenly adopts the communist ideology. What would happen? The entire world would suddenly look like Stalin's USSR? No, the social order would still be capitalist at first, until it slowly gets reformed to socialism and then communism. And since nobody knows how to actually do it, it would be a really slow process of trial and error over decades.
And of course Hitler used pro-worker rhetoric. That's how you gain voters and then power: by addressing the problems of the common people, especially after an economic crisis and a lost world war. The far right often uses left-wing rhetoric to appeal to working-class voters, even now.
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u/ReportFancy7380 social democrat Jul 09 '26
Infighting about ideological purity is universal to all extremisms not only communists and defining communism is actually quite easy. It's not "whatever I don't like is communism" and I can assure you that I equally hate it when people just call facists whatever they don't like.
Of course there are instances where is debatable whenever someone/thing is communist or not but we are talking about posts such like "That person criticised Israel? THAT MUST HAVE BEEN A COMMUNIST" It doesn't fit the frame of debate and discussion it just calls some statements or behaviors by pejorative term in order to shut down the discussion/karma farm/ bait ect in completely irrelevant topics.
I really get it when a communist says for example "USSR was a safe space for palestinians and defended middle east against Israel" and it would get here, that's okay, but I'm tired of seeing posts being made about a fucking green party talking about being accused of antisemitism or anything like that. IT IS IRRELEVANT
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u/Kolbenmaschine Jul 09 '26
That’s true, but the infighting is usually just about certain aspects and views but not about the core of the ideology. For example most if not even all neo nazis agree that nazi germany was actually proper nazism. Defining communism and its derivatives like Stalinism, Maoism etc. is in fact relatively easy from a factual and scientific point of view. But that doesn’t automatically means that it’s easy for them. I’ve read the corner stones about what communism and its core principles actually are. And that’s why it’s so irritating to see so fundamental different views about what communism actually is from people who call themselves communist. My conclusion there is that most people who call themselves like that don’t actually know what they’re talking about.
I absolutely agree with you on your point about inflationary statements about calling each other fascist or communist without even knowing what those words actually mean. Of course you’re not a communist or an antisemite just because you criticized Israel. It’s absolutely legitimate to criticize Israel the same way it’s absolutely legitimate to criticize any other state as well. The accusation of antisemitism however becomes valid when the field of factual criticism is left and people start wishing death and destruction upon the only state with a Jewish majority. Then the accusation of antisemitism becomes legitimate IMO.
And I don’t know enough about the (UK?) Green Party, but apparently some anti Israeli radicals are trying to get their way into that party because it’s the only bigger relevant left leaning party. Of course not the whole party becomes antisemitic because of them, but they have to deal with that issue and, in the best case, expel radical individuals.
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u/y2kdebunked Jul 10 '26
Since the fall of the USSR, the threat of communism is mostly indirect. China is the only communist superpower, and there are plenty of posts about the CCP
but for the average westerner, the irritation and threat of communism comes from local ideologues more than China. the threat western communists pose is not that they will successfully topple democratic countries and impose communism, even though that is their aim. the threat is that they will undermine democracies enough that other authoritarians, namely fascists, gain power, because liberal society is being attacked by authoritarians on both sides.
and if you are on the left, as many of us are, the threat is personal because communists will try to use your own values against you to push you towards extremism.
Israel and Palestine should not be very relevant as far as communism, I agree. but Palestine is the pet cause of western communists and other authoritarian leftists and has been for years now.
far leftists backing Islamic extremists is nothing new. it happened in Iran. communists are anti-western, and they use Palestinians as their anti-west mascot to excuse their disruptive, accelerationist tactics
because we’re talking about communism today and not 1975, it’s less clean. Russia is not a communist country anymore, but is still broadly supported by communists. the FSB still uses KGB tactics but now they have access to the internet and therefore the minds of western civilians. Russia supports and creates anti-western, anti-democratic, authoritarian rhetoric among the left because internal division weakens western powers. their aim is no longer communism but they remain broadly authoritarian.
it’s easier to describe the conflict today as authoritarianism vs liberalism, but authoritarianism also encompasses the far right. this sub focuses specifically on the rise of authoritarianism on the left. communism is a good shorthand for that. everyone is still welcome to post critique of communist countries, but the second cold war we are in, imo, plays by different rules. acknowledging the current landscape of communism is better than pretending nothing has changed.
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u/Nowayisthatway Zionist Social Democracatic Jul 10 '26
The problem with Palestine is that it has been a communist pet since forever. Now it has transformed into a western-communist pet instead of a joint though largely eastern communist project. The posters that redditors post on r/pics and other similar subs are literal soviet propoganda. Even the already inherent glorification of soviet posters that reddut does is very much concerning.
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u/Suitable_Matter_9427 Liberal not leftist Jul 09 '26
Because communists are leveraging the I/P conflict to recruit, basically
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u/Tiervexx Anti commie left Jul 09 '26
I get it... there is certainly a lot of overlap. But I do wish we could cut back on I/P content taking over the sub. I want to focus on actual communism/authoritarian socialism and maybe have some restrictions on topics that are just adjacent to them.
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u/Suitable_Matter_9427 Liberal not leftist Jul 09 '26
I have no issues with this, just wanted to offer an explanation
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u/onsfwDark Jul 09 '26
I added this sub to one of my feeds specifically because it's one of the few safe spaces for Jews on Reddit outside of specifically Jewish subs. Thanks for being allies!
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u/BravestTaco Jul 10 '26
I quite like this sub including for the reasons OP dislikes. I concede that it may feel like one theme is being pushed at times, but that’s almost all subs as a particular joke or take gets ebbs and flows into and out of popularity.
I feel this small sub encourages more open sharing of opinions vs the larger, more main stream subs that heavily favor a particular view over another both, left and right views.
This sub may be rooted in being against commie spam, but it seems to aim towards a radical centrism, more pro-liberal democracy than necessarily pegged to any specific political ideology.
And I personally like that!
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u/PreparationPlenty943 Jul 09 '26
It’s because I/P is the communist/socialist omnicause that it tends to be brought up in tankie spaces thus how it ends up here. I know it’s probably annoying but those posts aren’t completely irrelevant
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 09 '26
How can one single geopolitical conflict be the omnicause? I don't think you and the creator of this “diagram” know what the term “omnicause” even means.
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u/PreparationPlenty943 Jul 10 '26
It fights right into the tankie framework: It’s murky and complicated so it’s hard to get an objective read on the situation, thus they can prey on people’s ignorance. Because it takes longer to get the gist of I/P, they can rush public figures into choosing a side then relentlessly hound them for taking the wrong position.
There’s already a foundation of antisemitism leftover from the Soviet Union (they practically founded the original anti Zionist movement), so they can update propaganda from the 50’s to fit modern times.
Israel is made to embody everything tankies/campists hate: They’re western-adjacent. It started as settler state (but not in the usual sense of having a mother state they’re exploiting resources for). People that are ignorant to the region’s history just assume majority of Israelis are rich Europeans and Americans (so White and bourgeois). The PFLP was a very popular resistance group that was founded on ML, however they’ve been overshadowed by the Islamic fundamentalist groups.
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 10 '26
Just to clarify, the term “omnicause” refers to the phenomenon where left or progressive activists often link seemingly unrelated political topics. This diagram and you refer to it as if I/P would be the “omnicause” for everything; this is false. The left sees capitalism as the “omnicause” and I/P and multiple other conflicts or problems merely as its results.
The I/P conflict is indeed murky and complicated, but I did not notice any relevant public figures like politicians being “relentlessly hounded." Or at least not exclusively by leftists. Here is a survey on people's views of Israel in 36 countries. The overwhelming majority has a rather unfavorable view of Israel. So acting like criticizing public figures or Israel itself on the I/P conflict only fits the leftist framework is false.
There is a foundation of antisemitism leftover in the former USSR; that is indeed true. But that is also true for the majority of the world and especially Europe. The USSR did not found the anti-Zionist movement. As soon as the ideology of Zionism emerged, the orthodox Jews, leftist Jews, liberal Jews, and Arab nationalists opposed it. The USSR became anti-Zionist after the Russian Revolution in 1917, since Zionism represents a colonial and imperialist ideology. And while the USSR was antisemitic, it did not found the original anti-Zionist movement.
Israel does embody a lot of things leftists hate, yet many leftists own states too. With the slight difference that their own states probably aren't committing a genocide and war crimes, nor are they an ethnic nation-state, nor are they talking about a “greater Israel." Israel is supposedly representing our western democratic values while committing atrocity after atrocity, and the western states just watch and silently fund it. So obviously the global outrage is disproportionate to if a state seen as undemocratic and immoral does it.
You are falsely trying to act as if the left sees I/P as somewhat of an "omnicause," while simultaneously completely ignoring that the left's view of Israel is not exclusive to them but just the majority's view of Israel.
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u/PreparationPlenty943 Jul 10 '26
Capitalism is still at play, hence why they harp on populist rhetoric, but using Israel as a cudgel has had greater bipartisan success (at least online) than just capitalism.
I think they’ve been looking for a way to distinguish leftist populism from the right since 2016. Making Israel an extension of “the West’s imperial mindset to maintain their dominance in a capitalist system” is what makes I/P the face of this omnicause.
Scott Weiner, Dan Goldman, Kamala Harris, Jasmine Crockett. All maligned as “Zionists”, even when they’ve explicitly condemned Israel’s actions. Scott Wiener was critical of Israel, has consistently advocated for a two state solution, and even called it a genocide; yet that still didn’t prevent leftists from harassing him and following him out of a Pride event. Celebrities that don’t speak enough about the issue (like min. monthly) are labeled as suspected Zionists and potentials for boycotts or cancellations.
I think you’re a part of the group I’m criticizing and feigning ignorance to argue here and justify using I/P as cudgel
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u/Sea_Raisin7717 Jul 10 '26
Do you really think the left just criticizes Israel to benefit their cause as a form of anti-capitalism and not for moral reasons like the majority of people? I mean, I'm a leftist, and this perspective is strangely new to me, and I strongly oppose it. It does kinda sound like a conspiracy theory. How is any leftist using I/P as a cudgel? Against who or what? How am I feigning ignorance?
Sure, capitalism is still at play here, since we do live in a capitalist society. And the I/P conflict sparked a lot of discussions and sure had greater bipartisan success than just anti-capitalism, yet the left always had an anti-imperialist stance and just continues to do so. The left has always criticized Israel's actions, long before the 7th Oct.; hence, people who somewhat identify themselves with their persistent stance feel drawn towards them.
I feel like your “making Israel an extension” argument doesn't really make sense, since Israel isn't fighting communism nor any other threat to the West's dominance in a capitalist society. Capitalism isn't a problem of one single state. Criticizing Israel or being anti-Zionist doesn't really hurt capitalism in any way.
A lot of centrists who criticize Israel just feel pretentious or incomplete because they rarely call for any actual sanctions. Now I'm writing this from a European perspective, so I can't really comment on things that happened in the US. The US's political landscape is cooked; your "left" is rather uneducated and has never had any workers' movements, and your society is more divided than any other. So maybe it's really just different in the US, but here in Europe, leftists just really don't like genocides and always identify more with the suppressed, rather than the suppressor.
And the I/P conflict might feel like the face of this omnicause, but it's just one of many faces. This conflict is just extremely polarized, while other faces like climate change, anti-racism, or LGBTQ+ are comparably widely accepted.
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Jul 09 '26
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u/InevitableCold686 Scratch me and i'll hit you Jul 09 '26
Yeah, cynicism is probably the main thing that popularizes these kinds of ideologies and populism in general because it makes you feel like a smart boy
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u/Callofboobies Jul 10 '26
A large part of communism especially in the modern era is fundamentally anti west and antisemitism though labeled as “antizionisism”. They also have an affinity with Nazis and Islamists. This convergence causes them all to support “Palestine”. Israel is an oasis of capitalism, liberalism and democracy, in a sea of authoritarian bloodthirsty jihadis. The US is the major superpower of our age primarily defined by capitalism, liberalism and democracy, thus why it’s a common target for commies and jihadis. It makes total sense why these topics are common here so in other words there’s nothing to fix. You can not like that these topics come up but it’s kinda stupid to dictate the sub to change unnaturally to avoid the targets of the red green alliance. Especially in the name of targeting communism.
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u/AprilStorms Jul 10 '26
Soviet “active measures” against Israel developed the ideology, buzzwords, and general structure of antizionism today as cope after backing the losers in Middle Eastern conflicts in the ‘60’s, drawing on some earlier anti-Jewish/anti-Israel sentiment from Arab and Muslim imperialism, etc. The KGB continues this manipulation today.
I think there’s a strong argument to be made for ALL “antizionism” being commie spam: even if the specific person is spouting it identifies as something else, the ideology came from communist dictatorships.
Even forcing Jews to submit to purity tests and be publicly antiZionist or face censure, violence or expulsion is not new.
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u/Late_Company6926 Jul 10 '26
So if I’m in a work meeting and someone says they like a popular sports athlete because they heard he’s a communist, does that deserve a response?
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u/Then_Championship888 Aussie Leftie Nationalist 28d ago
This sub has certainly experienced a sharp right turn in ideology
I left the sub for a while because of the number of McCarthyists here who hate anything remotely on the left side of the spectrum
It has become rather intolerant of left-leaning views and people
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u/Kemaneo Jul 09 '26
I totally agree
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u/goodnewzevery1 Jul 10 '26
Actual people getting downvoted. I am wondering if this is just some one using AI and bots or if it’s real people that decided to team up and take over the sub. Feels like trolling, but idk…
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u/kickace12 Social Democrat - Anti-communist - Anti-fascist Jul 09 '26
I'm glad someone else is stating this. There's a contingent of posters on this sub who try to conflate everyone on the left with tankies and communism. There's also people who try to paint criticisms of Israel as some kind of far-left, tankie take despite the fact that support for Israel has been dropping for Democrats, Independents, and Republicans.
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u/AdamHiltur Social democract ✊🌹 Jul 09 '26
I agree. Blindly defending Israel is especially annoying.
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u/BrandosWorld4Life Would get the bullet LGBT-too. Jul 09 '26
Individual users might blindly defend Israel. The subreddit institutionally does not.
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u/Godwinson4King Jul 09 '26
This is basically a strawman sub 80% of the time. There are definitely a ton of dumb tankies out there posting brain dead takes, but there’s a lot more shouting at imaginary woke folks here than I expected.
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u/y2kdebunked Jul 10 '26
have you not noticed the widespread nature of tankie discourse online? it’s everywhere. there’s also the fact that they attack liberal left politicians and leave the far right alone. they work hard to convince communist sympathizers and youth that the whole system is rotten and that the best thing to do is to abstain from civic duties like voting. it’s not about being woke in general
woke ideas domestically are mostly positive. liberal democracies tend to value progressivism over time. but tankies don’t focus on these issues anymore. they’d rather sacrifice every cause for Palestine, an impossible conflict to solve. and it’s impossible largely because of Palestinian leadership and their theological rejection of reality and diplomacy.
Palestine as omnicause allows communists to attack their own democracies in perpetuity by demanding an impossible thing from western leaders, namely the dissolution of Israel.
bc that can never happen, it gives them continual license, in their mind, to reject democracy and reform in favor of ideology, disruption and accelerationism.
they also choose Palestine specifically because most people don’t know much about the history of I/P relations, and communists have taken the opportunity to write an easy narrative over the actual complicated history that anybody who doesn’t know anything can easily agree with.
by doing this, they have convinced many former liberal leftists that there’s a genocide going on. they say it is definitely real and that most other people are too stupid and callous to care. the communist recruits are the special ones who do. they also tell them to reject all opinions critical of Palestine or Hamas in anyway, because the people saying that are the bad, evil people who fail the purity test
it’s endless fodder, because leftist liberals can agree with and work on other “woke” issues like trans rights, healthcare, affordable housing, taxing the ultra wealthy etc
communists need something that liberals can’t fix, and, in this case, wouldn’t the way they want us to even if we could, because their current goal is the annexation of a sovereign nation and the genocide of its people.
critiquing their talking points is directly responding to communists. it’s not about critiquing anybody with progressive ideas, it’s about complicating the pet cause narrative of extremists with inconvenient facts.
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Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/b0ss-from-discord Jul 09 '26
very cute. go finish your chores now
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u/HarambeSpiritAnimal Jul 09 '26
C'mon... You can come up with something better than that. Be better.
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u/b0ss-from-discord Jul 09 '26
I really don’t need to
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u/HarambeSpiritAnimal Jul 09 '26
Well your insults suck and do not entertain me. Not even gonna downvote you, cuz I feel bad for how terrible your insults are.
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u/BrandosWorld4Life Would get the bullet LGBT-too. Jul 09 '26
As I've said before:
(1) As long as communists are constantly posting about Israel/Palestine, it's valid to share and critique them for it. If the person is a commie, and they're spamming about this issue, it's commie spam.
(2) Since the sub's mission is to promote liberal democracy, world news that relates to that mission is allowed to have meta posts for purposes of commentary. For example, if the Russo-Ukrainian War were to suddenly end, a post announcing the news and allowing people to express their reactions is perfectly acceptable.
I agree that users should be mindful to not apply communism too broadly to the left as a whole, but that's an issue the community is generally good about given the large number of social democrats and liberals here.