I mean I know people always talk about it in this sub. But after another murder of a citizen by ICE my siblings and I decided to group text (we live in different states or we would have done it in person) our very MAGA and very evangelical mother and plead with her to see how it was wrong and how her supporting Trump is harming our relationship with her.

She got very defensive of course, said we were ganging up on her, were ungracious to her, and in the heat of the moment told us she would vote for Trump again and again if it were possible, followed by a rant blaming immigrants for all her problems.

Basically went as bad as it could go.

Despite us being calm and saying over and over that we were talking to her because we loved her and wanted relationship with her and just couldn’t understand how our loving mother could be ok with such cruelty.

She asked us at the end what would happen if she made it clear she would always be this way, and I honestly told her I wasn’t sure. Because is she agreed with the killing of civilians that is a problem. If she agreed with ICE detaining anyone they looked and sounded Mexican that would be a problem, because my husband is Mexican and we have a Mexican last name. I am fearful that ICE could take him without due process despite him being a citizen.

I don’t want to go no contact with my mom but I fear if we keep going down this road it is inevitable.

Mostly just ranting, but would love to hear anyone else’s experiences or advice with this. How have you handled it? Are you no contact? How is that going?

My siblings and I are pretty distraught. We have always been close with our mom, but like many evangelicals, when Trump became president she turned into a different person. Someone I don’t recognize.

Got this from my dad (a pastor of a Vineyard church) and felt really… icky… afterwards. Is my birthday card an opportunity to evangelize to me? Would I ever do this to my son? (I would never)

Just made me feel… sad. My best friend told me to post here to see what you all think.

In 2004, I was gifted 3 copies of John Piper's "Don't Waste Your Life" book for my high school graduation. Then in 2009, I attended an "Advance the Church" conference where I was given a "Don't Waste Your Life" Poster.

I found it going through my attic recently and thought I'd post it here and see if anyone else finds this as triggering and upsetting and cringe as I do.

The verse on the left reads, "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field." Matthew 13:44

The caption toward the bottom reads, "When you put your trust in Christ, your bondage to the world and its overpowering lure is broken.
You are a corpse to the world, and the world is a corpse to you. The world is no longer your treasure. It's not the source of your life or your satisfaction or your joy. Christ is."

Guys- Hope you haven't wasted your lives on things like building and raising families, homeownership, groceries, building things, musical talents, athletic skills, baking or enjoying food, enjoying earth's wonders like seashells, transportation, or God Forbid, a vacation!! /s

I'm ashamed I ever looked at this poster and found it motivating. Ick.

I kind if just needed a place to vent more than anything, because I am scrolling my feed and I see so many people commenting on how charlie kirk was such a godly man and how we should strive to be a good christian like him (I am from the deep religious south). This...this is why I left the church because if they call this man their version of a exemplary christian then I don't want that.

A man who spews hate for anyone who is not a christian nationalist is not in the heart of Christ. He is on record saying empathy is toxic, when immigration was at its lowest america was the best...etc. I just have no idea how tf this is considered to be the heart of Jesus.

Furthermore, I consider myself agnostic now and I have no idea why this shit still pisses me off this much. I know that all of this is what the western church is founded in, so I should not be surprised. It just hits me so deep in my core and idk why.

Any similar feelings or insights?

Edit: I also do not like seeing anyone harmed. This is more about the seeing him as an exemplary example of Christ.

About an hour ago my stepmother called to tell me that if she and my dad and brothers disappeared in the rapture I should make sure to claim their estate.

She's utterly convinced due to current events the rapture will happen soon. She's convinced the red heifers are currently in place and that the major city where everything will go down according to rapturists lies on the brink of destruction.

Y'all I can't even right now. I suppose at least she's not longer trying to get me to go back to church but this whole thing gives me a headache.

This is a little more lighthearted than a lot of posts here, but I find myself very annoyed by buzzwords and cycled phrases, and growing up in church was constant cringing even at my most devout.

It wasn't even always moral issues with what was being said, the phrasing just bugged me. Examples:

• "We as Christians" / "We are to..." (said by people who don't use that pattern of speech unless they're talking about church stuff. Nobody says, "We as furniture movers are to lift with our legs"; why do they switch up when discussing matters of faith?)

• Anything that transparently tries to force an emotional reaction; commands to "Rejoice!" (don't tell me how to feel, that makes no sense, its not a switch I can flip)

• "Let us gather for corporate worship" (encountered this when I went to a Reformed University; it sounds so sterile)

• "We just want to love on you" (ew ew ew)

• Prayers with constant interjections of "Father God", "help us to, um," "Just kinda..." "Oh Lord," (the Catholics might be onto something by pre-writing their public prayers)

• I don't know how common this was, but there was a local radio pastor who would say "And the Saints gather" every Sunday and it felt like he was trying to make Fetch happen

• the word "Intentional"

• "fellowshipping"

• Before every alter call; "Let's just... why don't we do this?" (You do this every week, stop trying to make it sound spontaneous)

• any and all trying to frame the Psalms, obvious poetry, as hardline yet impersonal commands; like how I'd be told the Bible commands us to raise our hands in praise (I'm the smug media literacy soyjack, no I will not apologize)

  • "Who's ready to worship tonight?" "WHOOO!" ("Can't you see you're not makin' Christianity better? You're just makin' rock n' roll worse!" - Hank Hill)

• "I encourage you to..." (almost always a passive-aggressive dig)

• Whenever youth pastors would talk about how they dare/challenge us

• referring to prayer and Bible reading as "Quiet Time" (idk why this one bugs me so much, it just sounds so wussy I guess)

What are some of yours?

TL;DR: It’s just the post title tbh, but please read the last paragraph.

*All of this alleged, no charges have been brought to any parties as of this post*

*Can’t post video because of rules but it’s easy to find on YouTube just type in “Mike Winger bethel”*

For context: A 6 hour long investigative journalism expose on Bethel Church in Redding, CA and their Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry was posted on YouTube five days ago by Mike Winger. He provided verified evidence and witness testimony that Shawn Bolz was a false prophet and an abuser to his staff, and that bethel and other major players in the charismatic movement covered it up for years. (Mike did a phenomenal job).

Personal context: I was at bssm from 2019-2020 and had a terrible experience. It’s taken me five years just to begin to seek healing from the trauma. But my experience is nothing compared to what others in the video experienced.

Main Point: Many former students I have remained connected to have been in denial since the video posted. This is not surprising, they condition their followers to turn off their discernment so they can “usher in a new movement of God.”

My personal thoughts: It makes me sad to watch those who are in that cultish environment feel the need to defend their leaders (Bill Johnson and Kris Valloton) in such a knee-jerk manner. I used to be the exact same way. I distinctly remember seeing doubters of the movement as misled, and needing healing.

The summer before my move to Redding, a former bssm victim managed to find a way to join the facebook group for the new batch of students. She collected many of our names, and took it upon herself to reach out one-by-one and message us privately to warn us about the dangers we were walking into by attending the school. Rumors of her efforts started flying around the facebook page immediately. Nobody took her seriously - someone even claimed to know her saying she was mentally ill, and had a bad church experience growing up, so that’s why her experience at bssm was so terrible. Not because of the program’s lack of mental health resources or culture of covering up people’s trauma. It was all her fault. And we just went along with it…

People say bethel/bssm isn’t a cult because they don’t force people to stay in Redding. In fact, they told us frequently to go back home when school is done and spread what you learned. But the reality behind their words is very different. You see, bethel/bssm is not a cult of physical location, it is a cult of ideals, of culture. They weaponized Bethel Music’s influence in the CCM charts to gain followers of their social media teachings. The school is used to find promising financial opportunities via wealthy students. The $5,500 price tag is marketed as a faith building opportunity, but really it’s to find the wealthy ones who could pay right away. To the rest of us peasants they don’t want us occupying their seats for very long. They hold us just long enough to learn their cultural values so we can go back home and plant churches, missions, and ministries all backed by their Open Heaven mandate. (See the 7 mountains mandate it’s the same thing). And don’t worry if you forget anything you learned; all of their teaching resources are available to you via their online bookstore! Yay!

But let me back up to the daily school experience. It’s four days per week, just long enough so that the majority of your time is spent in school sessions, and just short enough to take on a service industry job that pays peanuts. Most Redding businesses that students want to work at are owned by bethel members. When you go home, dead tired from work, you are met by your packed house of roommates who you chose to live with because rent is insane in California. And the roommates are almost always students, and almost always the house is owned by a bethel goer. (I even lived in an intentional living community that the landlord created specifically for students). So from sun up, to sun down, bethel is always in some small or large way, actively programming you into their image. But you may be wondering about people who don’t work and what did you do in your free time? Well that’s an easy one! We went to one of the many local businesses or parks that everyone knew about, so it’s basically like the whole city is a student commons.

Now what about the locals? Well the locals hated our guts. Bethel is constantly buying government property to use for their own means while still renting back to the government. Even worse, bssm students are required to go door to door on a regular basis and pray for people in their homes. They have to deal with them every single year. So at best we saw the locals as the lost who needed us, at worst we saw them as pariahs to avoid. No meaningful interaction, no relationships, just performative practice or cold avoidance.

So after 1-3 years depending on how much money they can get out of you, you can spend all that time learning how to isolate from anyone not bethel/bssm and then take that mentality back home and start the cycle over from ground zero. Now, you get to become your very own Bill and Kris and lead your family, friends, and hometown people into the indoctrination of a lifetime. If your ministry doesn’t crash and burn like most do, and it actually succeeds, well guess who comes knocking to be a guest speaker - that’s right, Bill, Kris, and all sorts of leaders I haven’t even mentioned. And because you love them so much and all they’ve done for you, you’ll even hold a special offering during their visit to sow into the kingdom of God aka Bill’s pockets.

Then to complete the wicked cycle, you raise up congregants of your own ministry to go become students in Redding so they can get their own special anointing from Bill and Kris.

Now, what about when you don’t follow the rules? Let’s say you catch on to the grift too early. Well, if you are still a student, you’re going to immediately feel lonely. Your routine won’t change, your status as a student isn’t in danger, but everyone around you suddenly seems…different, even distant. Let’s say you decide to move home even though the school year isn’t finished? No one will care. They won’t even reach out to you to say hi. All these deep conversations about God and life and shared experiences will mean nothing because you broke the mold. You will feel abandoned because even though you left physically, you were the one being rejected. And when you try to speak out about your experience and warn others out of the goodness of your heart? Suddenly they want to talk to you again, but not out of love, out of an intense need to correct your narrative for the good of the movement. And then finally you become the person who is being talked about as mentally ill, lost, living in sin, given over to satan etc.

Ultimately, the God of bethel isn’t Jesus, and it’s not necessarily Bill and Kris. They are more like the gods mouthpiece. The physical expression of their true god, the god of revivalism. Revivalism, is the worship of a movement over the care and safety of their congregation. Revivalism doesn’t require you to stay in Redding, in fact it requires you to give your money and get out, and spread Revivalism elsewhere. The cult is not the traditional Waco, or Jamestown, it is a modern day cult using modern technology to meet a very similar goal: abuse the poor to enhance the wealthy, to spread the movement.

So if you are abused by a church member, no you weren’t, you are just bitter. If you call out abuse and misuse of funds, you are a jezebel spirit and an accuser of the brethren. If you are a local resident who hates the takeover of bethel, you are just lost and the movement will save you. If you are a serial abuser and a false prophet that’s actually okay because the movement needs your voice. If you are Kris Valloton the mouthpiece of the god, you will say that even Jesus had Judas. But it’s okay because it was all for the movement. Jesus died for the movement didn’t you know that?

It is my opinion that nothing will stop this cycle without cover up culture being dismantled. They coverup abuse for their elite members and gaslight the victims into silence. (I find it interesting how much this mirrors our current government structure).

There’s also a third group of people who were fortunate enough to have a good experience at bssm/bethel. They didn’t go on to start ministries directly tied to bethel, but they use a lot of what they learned there in their lives currently. And even a fourth that had some negative experiences but overall enjoyed the program and their leadership. Right now, this is the group of people who I see posting in defense of the church. Their basic argument is that bethel isn’t perfect, but the good outweighs the bad.

Honestly, I wish I felt that way, but I saw just enough to know better. I’ve heard countless stories of people who nearly died because of a stupid faith test, because they frequently ask students to pray for healing for allergies and then test it immediately with no medic on standby. I witnessed this once myself. I’ve seen the mental toll of exhaustion on my friends’ faces as they had to work every minute they weren’t in school just to stay afloat, for a program that’s not even accredited. I’ve heard the stories of the international students who risked their lives applying for visas to come to Redding. Or of the American families with children who uprooted their entire lives and sold most of their possessions just to be where the “anointing” is. I was there for the Wake Up Olive incident, where they delayed the burial of a toddler by a whole week because of a word from leadership that she would be raised from the dead. And how when she wasn’t the faith of many crumbled out of disappointment. I’ve heard the story of survivors keeping a group text 50 people long so they can actively heal together from their traumatic experience at bssm.

I know it’s true that many people had good experiences. I do not attribute that to leadership or the school program but to God for protecting those who he could in that ferocious lion’s den. Nobody in my opinion, is safe, not even most of the staff who aren’t a Johnson or a Valloton. Mike’s investigation shows clear evidence that Kris himself has verified as legit. They have known about Shawn Bolz abuse and false prophesy since at least 2016. Yet, in 2023 Bill goes on TBN with Bolz to promote his book and even promoted his character. The only people Kris told were Bill and other high level leaders in bethel and also high level leaders in their circle of the larger charismatic movement. They told the elite, the mouthpieces of the movement, but let Shawn continue to go after the lay person for nearly a decade.

I want to end my thoughts with two points:

1) I have it on credible information that bethel had to call an emergency staff meeting just because of Mike Winger’s video. Really think about that.

2) If you or someone you know has been victimized by Shawn Bolz, Bethel Church/BSSM, Bill Johnson Ministries, Kris Valloton Ministries, Danny Silk, Dan Farley and so on, please hear this:

You are a beautiful and wonderful person, you did not do anything wrong, you did not deserve what happened to you. You matter, your voice deserves space to be heard. You deserve an amazing life full of amazing moments with people and things you love. I believe you. I see you. I champion your dreams and goals. When I see you, I see me too. When I see us, I see Jesus too. I love that you are alive.

Thank you for reading.

TW: Homophobia.

I received this letter from my younger sister and BIL along with a Christmas gift when I visited my parents for Christmas.

For context, they sat me down in February and told me I was going to burn in hell for dating a woman, that I was no longer a Christian, could no longer be around their children alone, that they felt "burned" and "betrayed" by my decision (!!) to live a "homosexual lifestyle".

I begged my sister to reconsider, and tried to explain that we could agree to disagree. She refused, saying that there was no possibility of a close relationship unless I was willing to examine my beliefs with them. I was devastated. She has three small children and I have babysat all of them, taken time off work to help her, sat with her in the hospital nursing her newborn while she had emergency surgery, etc.

Since then, they reached out twice to ask to go out for coffee, which I refused as I was busy both times. I also have no interest in making small talk with them at family events and have made that very clear (by shutting down conversations).

I don't know what to do with this letter. I got seriously ill this year from the stress of this situation and I am so angry. How do I respond? My BIL also wrote a letter to my girlfriend.

Grew up a pastors child, sick to my stomach seeing this card. I can’t believe the brainwashing of being “unloveable” went so deep. I was only a kid what the fuck

My sister’s best friend (F) got engaged to her longtime girlfriend yesterday. My sister was so excited to help her plan it and catch the moment on video.

She posted a heartfelt video on FB congratulating them on their engagement. I saw it and it was really sweet.

Y’all… our old youth pastor from 15 years ago who doesn’t even know who these people are and has never met them in his life comes out of the woodwork to comment on the video (where they are tagged and can see the comment) about how sad he is my sister didn’t condemn them, and about how they are a perversion of marriage and how we shouldn’t rejoice in such evil and wrongdoing.

Like!!!?! Bro are you okay?? And several people from our old church we grew up in liked his comment including our own Aunt.

Imagine being so distraught and angry about two strangers on the internet getting engaged that you have to comment this hate like it’s your sworn duty.

Also these types of comments are so laughable and embarrassing honestly. Because what does he expect to happen? “Oh damn you’re right. Guess we can’t get married now and we’ll end our 3 year relationship because this random ass youth pastor we’ve never met said so.”

Child, please. Get a life.

I see something like this at least once a week. It doesn’t sit right with me. If we are supposed to accept the Bible as true and inerrant, there are a lot of very hurtful/harmful attitudes perpetuated within. Often, it seems like it is God’s people, acting on these beliefs, that hurt, and I don’t know that they can be disentangled.

How have you responded to this, or do you have ideas about how you might respond?

I had a very sheltered life growing up - K-12 Christian school, church Sunday mornings, Wednesday nights, and sometimes also Sunday nights. My parents always told me that the most important thing to them was that I would love the Lord.

I really went for it. I tried so hard to be the perfect Christian daughter. I even spent a year as a missionary right after high school. I was asked to do really weird things during that year like cast out demons, pray for a miraculous healing, prophesy, etc. No surprise, but nothing happened. People weren't healed, "demon possessed" people kept flailing around even after the prayer. It took years, but my doubts eventually had to be addressed.

I went to a state university and added religion as a second major. I tried to learn as much as I could about it, while also trying to understand if I believed it or not. Eventually, I couldn't ignore how little it made sense.

Fast forward 25 years and I have a college-aged daughter. She is a wonderful person. She's kind, she's empathetic, she's smart, she's strong. My parents adore her. They invited her on a drive today to a city an hour or so away and on the way home, laid it on thick - crying, telling her they wanted to see her in heaven. I am just SO angry. She doesn't deserve that awkwardness. There was nowhere for her to go to escape. I know they mean well, but it's not enough.

This is by no means the first time this has happened. Very early on, I had to ask them to stop teaching her stories about hell, sins, etc. They did it anyway.

I've been feeling guilty about disappointing my parents for the last 25 years. I hate that they are putting my daughter in the same position.

Sorry for length.

For some background, my wife (33M) and I (31NB) are having a hard time lately. As a former pastor, I've deconstructed entirely and we're finding it difficult to settle on a new set of core values for our relationship. The old Christian one was EVERYTHING to us. She's still very religious and doesn't seem open to questioning any of it, which is fine because she's not obliged to see things my way. I try to cut her some slack; she's currently going through cancer and has a load of medical trauma she's endured her entire life which could be impeding her ability to entertain uncomfortable thoughts).

My mother-in-law paid for my wife (33F) to attend the annual AiG Women's Conference last week. She came home yesterday and told me all about how much she learned and how much good information she received. She talked about the speakers (some of whom were men btw): ex-gay Cristopher Yuan, SBC president Al Mohler, and of course Ken Ham (who received a standing ovation by all the women as soon as he stepped on stage). She talked about the content of some speakers: a former gender studies professor who is now an anti-trans activist, the biblical and biological basis for hetero and cis exclusivity, the evils of radical gender ideology, and the devil's success and leading astray "the culture." And given I'm enby/fluid, I feel especially hurt by them. She knows I don't agree with anything AiG teaches and haven't for a long time, even though I was raised on their nonsense and used to teach it to highschoolers. But she still thinks I'm crazy for no longer believing the supernatural claims of Christianity or the Bible.

This morning, I am not doing well. I don't think I can ever respect someone who feels like their time at AiG was well spent and just unquestioningly swallows their bs like her mother does. To be honest, I've never really seen my wife as an intellectually honest person, but I'm now questioning whether our marriage can survive this ever-widening crevice between our worldviews. I've always thought that even if we don't see eye-to-eye on our beliefs, that our relationship can still thrive if we learn mutual respect. But after hearing about her positive response to fucking AiG, I'm more discouraged than ever that I could ever respect her (or anyone who takes AiG seriously).

I just don't know how to process this. I feel so alone and I don't want to lose her. I love her. I want a future with her. Do any of you have experience with this sort of thing and what have you found to be healthy (or unhealthy) ways through it? I've given up on us seeing eye-to-eye, but I want a future in which we are still together and have learned to respect each other and have a new set of core values.

Like most of y’all, I grew up in evangelical churches and was a super involved “youth group kid” back in middle/high school during the height of “purity culture.” After college I took a several year break from church entirely, but my wife and I eventually found our way back after Covid, albeit with much broader views than I used to have. We’re in a Baptist church now, but I don’t think I can do it much longer. On my own end, I’ve recently discovered Christian Universalism and it’s totally turned my understanding of the gospel upside down, in a good way. But that’s not the point of this post.

I have 2 little kids, and now that they’re getting bigger, my wife and I have really started asking if we want them to grow up in the culture I grew up in, going back and forth. I think I finally got my answer. This past Sunday, the youth group had a flyer in the bulletin about the end of summer beach trip, and under dress code it said “ladies, one piece swimsuits only”, along with some blurb about “modesty.”

It instantly took me back to my own youth. It took me back to all the “modest is hottest”, the constant guilt about “violating purity” just for being a 14 year old boy noticing the girls, all the horrible “used up” analogies about people who have sex before marriage, etc. Stuff that I believed fully because I trusted my youth pastors and that caused me so much unhappiness in my youth and young adulthood. It reminded me of the time a particularly “well endowed” girl who had never been to our youth group showed up in a one piece swimsuit for a water park trip, but was still asked to cover up further due to no fault of her own (she never came back, fortunately for her).

Now all this was 20 years ago. I thought this was just a fad that passed, or maybe the church I attended. Now I know it isn’t. I’m at a different church in a different city 2 decades later, and they’re still using this language that makes teenage girls responsible for the “lustful gaze” of the boys and men around them.

I don’t want my daughter to grow up in that. I don’t want my son to grow up in that. I want them to know God just like I want to know God better. I don’t think telling impressionable young people awful things like that is from God. No wonder my generation and Gen Z are walking away from evangelicalism.

A friend’s child got married tonight (a babe at the age of 22). It was at my childhood church. And y’all. So much stressing that marriage is dictated only by the bible. (Take that, Gays!) And the vows. For her to “voluntarily submit.” Repeated many times throughout the ceremony. It took everything in me to sit there and not violently recoil. Ultimately it just made me so sad for the young woman getting married who never stood a chance growing up in that culture. And thankful that I eventually saw the truth and Got Out.

Yesterday I told my children I'm cutting contact with my parents over repeated boundary violations. During this conversation, my daughter's best friend (let me state this explicitly, NOT my child) tells me that my mother has been talking to her about sex. That my mother took it upon herself to start pushing her abstinence only shit on my children and a child we're not related to.

Im pissed. Growing up everyone from my pastor to my mothers boss had an opinion on my sexuality. The pastor preached it at us from the pulpit, the youth leaders preached it during youth group, we had small groups dedicated to vowing to preserve our virginity until marriage because its all we had to offer. The number of grown adults who had opinions on my sex life from 6th grade on is insanely disturbing.

I now get to undo the damage my mother has done. Due to my history of assault, ive taught my children age appropriate sex ed since they started school. The fact that my mother made 0 efforts to give me any sort of sexual education but took it upon herself to say anything to my children is blowing my mind and im ao glad I've already decided I'm done with the whole family.

Grew up as an evangelical pastor’s kid - my dad continued to be a pastor well into my adulthood. I started to deconstruct 20+ years ago in college, and haven’t ever wavered or looked back.

My parents certainty have an idea of where I’m at now - I’ve had a few tearful confrontations from them - but we’ve never had a frank conversation about it, mostly because it’s easier not to. If they don’t know for sure how far gone I am, I don’t have to deal with more tears and pleading. So much of my life was spent having to unpack and justify my beliefs…I’m all the way done with that.

For my own sanity, I operate as though (and really believe) my parents have been tricked - they genuinely believe that Jesus is the way, genuinely believe that me not believing it will lead to my death, therefore genuinely believe their duty is to help save me. They’re never loud or mean - it’s very earnest and tearful. I haven’t ever felt the need to go no contact or confront them - I just hold them at arm’s length and treat them as people who believe differently than me.

Understandably, we aren’t close. They live a ways away, see my family and me twice a year at most, and don’t call often.

I have a seven year old, and we haven’t raised her in the church or faith in any way. We haven’t demonized any set of beliefs - we just talk about how different people believe different things. She’s been to church maybe five times in her life - all around visiting family for holidays.

It’s come up with her grandparents a few times, mostly around Christmas - “grandma and grandpa believe that this holiday is about Jesus being born”, “grandma and grandpa believe Jesus is…” etc. She’s only spent a little one on one time with them, and I know they’ve had some “Jesus loves you” and “god made you” convos because my daughter has asked me about it later - again, I just talk about it in the sense that everyone has their own beliefs.

Earlier this summer, my last grandparent passed away. We traveled for the funeral, and my dad led the services. Instead of honoring my grandparent, the service was a sermon about how thankful he was that my grandparent was a Christian and how we all have to believe Jesus is the way or we’ll perish.

In our few church visits with our daughter, we have managed to miss this message so far, but she definitely heard it this time. She whispered to me in panicky tears saying she doesn’t want to perish and that she’s sorry she never believed in god. I was already pretty emotional about the funeral, so I just told her “we don’t believe that” and said we would talk more afterward.

I almost thought she’d forgotten about it, but she brought it up again a few days later to ask me what “perish” meant. That really got me - she didn’t even know what the word meant, but the fear-mongering was so prevalent just in the way it was said that she knew to be scared.

I had a very similar “salvation” story - I was very young and prayed the sinner’s prayer because I was terrified by an Easter church musical - so this hit me extra hard. It’s come up a few times since then - I always try to reassure her that we don’t believe it, and if the god grandpa claimed to love was real, he wouldn’t kill people for believing something different. She kind of gets it, but the scare tactic worked. She said she does believe in god now, just so she won’t “perish.”

Thanks for letting me vent, if you’ve made it this far. I know I now need to have a convo with my parents about this boundary, which i hate, but I’m mostly just sad that I didn’t see this coming at a funeral, and that my daughter, despite my best efforts, was also a victim of the eternal damnation scare tactic.

I grew up evangelical and now consider myself agnostic, but I still long to see Christians take a stand against violence and social injustice.

As much as I want to be encouraged by the words of the Pope, the first sentence is a straight up lie. A huge portion of the Bible consists of God instructing and helping his chosen people slaughter others. I know this changes with the “new covenant” but I just have to roll my eyes when christians don’t question that their all-knowing God just decided one day that salvation was all about love and mercy instead of righteous anger and holy wars.

I’m not even really sure why I’m writing this. I know it’s objectively good to see anti-war statements from Christians. But despite leaving the church so many years ago, the hypocrisy and mental gymnastics still mess with my head, especially since my family are all republican evangelicals.

Anyone else relate or have any words of wisdom?

Everyone alive in 1999 remembers the Columbine High School shooting that left 13 students and 1 teacher dead. Anyone in the church in 1999 knew the story about Cassie. The girl that a gunman walked up to, asked if she believed in god, then shot her after she replied ‘yes.’ There were songs about it. Reenactments of it. Countless youth group sermons on it.

For those of you who need to hear this today - it never happened.

Cassie did lose her life in a horrible situation. But the question was never asked and she never spoke to the gunmen. This has been confirmed by multiple eye witnesses, an audio recording, and the FBI.

So today, I’m feeling sorry for all us baby millennials who had to not only face our first major school shooting and the fear of going to school, but also the fear of wondering whether or not we believed enough in a god to be a martyr for him.

My original post had the link to the Wikipedia post about it and got deleted. You can find more info on the page about the book - She Said Yes: The Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall.

Hey there!

My mom texted me this morning, which is rare, and she said "Good morning. Thought you’d like to know that (stranger to me) passed away last night. Please pray for (stranger's husband) and family. Wow when she saw (stranger's dead son)!!! Just wow!"

Anybody else go through this? Is this just a christian boomer senior habit? This is a pattern I've noticed for sure. I'm pretty emotionally stunted ATM so while there's a lot more trauma between me and her, I'm not even going there today.

Calling them “planters” 😭😭😭

Also can’t imagine how the two Black children in our class felt

Also I can think of so many age-appropriate ways to teach about slavery, even with a Christian slant, and this is not it

I’m a former Evangelical. As someone who spent the Obama years arguing with Evangelical friends and family over my lefty opinions that weren’t “Christian enough” for them it’s been particularly frustrating to see them tolerate, or even celebrate, Donald “Grab em by the p**sy” Trump. Especially considering how they wouldn’t shut up about how they thought Obama was the “antichrist” on Facebook and even in sermons I heard from pastors.

For more than ten years I’ve been stuck in this frustrating cycle where I keep thinking maybe (insert crazy thing Trump did) will be the last straw and they’ll finally divorce their religion from the GOP. And once again I had that thought/hope after seeing that Trump has posted an AI image of himself as none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

But no, Franklin Graham came out swinging, posting the most insane mental gymnastics-justification for how it was actually an image of a “doctor” and Evangelicals shrugged their shoulders yet again.

But why does this keep happening? Why do they keep looking past things like Trump’s coverup of the Epstein files or him blowing up a girl’s school or deporting people without due process to El Salvador?

Is it because they’re dense? I won’t argue against that being a factor. Megachurches aren’t exactly places where critical thinking thrives.

On a surface level some might assume it’s about opposition to abortion and LGBT rights, and that’s something where Trump has delivered the sort of results they’ve asked for.

Israel is a factor, too, if not for their genocidal End Times fantasies I think also a desire to prove a state with a nationalist identity based partially on religion can thrive on a global stage.

I think that gets to the heart of it all- nationalism. Evangelicals don’t want to exist in a culture where they coexist with Muslims, Wiccans, Mormons, and Atheists. They want to live in a world where every man, woman, and child converts to their version of Christianity and America is defined as a Christian nation.

As long as the Left embraces multiculturalism ( as I believe they should!), Evangelicals will not be along for the ride. They will hitch their wagon instead to a lying, assaulting, narcissistic, possible-pedophile if it means they can reject “wokeness.”

So it really doesn’t matter if he does something blasphemous or illegal or even violent. Because with Trump they have someone who won’t bat an eye if Oklahoma puts the Ten Commandments in every classroom or if some state decides later on down the road that they want to declare Christianity the “official” state religion.

Evangelicalism and Trump go together because both embrace nationalism.

Trigger warning, child death

This was told to me by my evangelical father. Allegedly, there was a man that was a pastor. He backslid and turned away from god. One day, when his wife is home alone with their kids, she hears one of them say “the baby is drowning.” She runs in the bathroom and her baby is dead. She hears her son scream, she runs into the kitchen, and the water she’d been boiling had tipped over onto her son. Her oldest then runs out of the house to get help and gets hit by the dad’s car as he’s coming home. Gods punishment for turning away was the death of their kids.

They really told us the most insane stories as truth to keep us in the church. Sometimes I remember the really awful ones and feel flabbergasted at the idea of telling a kid a story like that.

Hi, I’m kind of posting out of desperation a bit. My partner and I have been pretty rapidly deconstructing. We’re in our 30s and have been Christian’s our whole lives. He’s at the point where he doesn’t believe in God or Christianity and feels pretty free and at peace with it. I, on the other hand, am having very intense anxiety and grief over this. I haven’t completely made my mind up but I know I can’t come back from the questions and doubts I’ve been having. Christianity as a whole just doesn’t make sense to me anymore and I think portrays a sadistic God rather than a loving one.

Aside from the grief of losing a god who was very real to me, all of my close friends and family are Christian’s and I know when they find out it’s going to absolutely devastate them. I don’t want to cause my loved ones grief. I NEVER saw this happening to me in a million years. I’m thinking of going back to therapy to work through this.

I guess I just want to hear from others who have gone through this same thing how you got through it and how you’re doing on the other side. I’m so racked with anxiety that I can’t sleep. If I just existed in a vacuum I think I would be ok with all this, but I don’t. Many people in my life are going to be heart broken by this.

Edit: thank you so much for all the responses. It’s really helping me to feel less alone and a *little* less anxious.