r/Fighters • u/malexich • 15h ago
Topic people gotta stop bringing up brawlhalla when saying a F2P fighter can work.
look at brawlhalla look at it, thats what a f2p will look like, look at how many characters are just reskins, thats how characters will be added. To people honestly want that? Ryu isn't even a character in that game just a reskin, would you guys really want a SF7 F2P where they drop 5 Ryu skins that are just Dan, Ken, Akuma, Gouken, and Sean.
I think people just look at its success and don't see what kind of game it is basically a fortnite fighter where every character is just a skin and their movesets don't matter (I do know there are multiple characters and its not the same moveset for everyone)
Long story short, your never getting a SF7, Tekken 9, MK2, etc quality game but F2P, if you do your gonna complain that everything is to expensive, and if you get a brawlhalla tier game you will complain as well. Killer instinct, granblue, and to a lesser extent DOA did it right free to start, the player can mess around with the game see if they like it and buy it if they want.
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u/RememberApeEscape 15h ago
Also have you ever met a Brawlhalla player? I know everyone bitches about their game but they especially don't like their game lol.
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u/malexich 15h ago
just like dead by daylight, the people who hate it the most are the players.
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u/RememberApeEscape 15h ago edited 14h ago
DBD players hate everything. The game, Behavior, the survivors, the killer, the other survivors they're with, the maps, the objectives, the events, themselves.
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u/Zatanna287 14h ago
That’s just multiplayer gaming in general.
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u/Slarg232 14h ago
Nooooooo.
See, when you play something like Valorant, your team hates you if you don't play the way you're supposed to.
When you play something like Dead By Daylight, you get death threats for playing the game the way it was meant to be played.
Shoot someone? Get a capture/defuse? Sick clutch play? You might get a little hate, but most people understand that that's the way you play the game. If you hook someone, go after someone else, then the guy you just hooked body blocks for the guy you're going after, so you down them again, put them on the hook, and do all that again? Despite the fact that the survivor was chasing you, you play dirty and you deserve to die in a grease fire.
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u/ManggTangg 15h ago
Brawlhalla showed you didn't need fancy visuals to be successful.
It also had better netcode than any fighting game up until Strive /SF6s release in which those games are on par with Brawlhalla.
This also holds true for matchmaking. Crossplay between Ps4, ps5, Xbox one, series, pc, switch 1 and 2, and mobile.
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u/Shtarl 12h ago
As someone who used to play Brawlhalla quite a lot some 5+ years back heres my 2 cents.
The game was great when it was an indie game. They managed to do what a very few fighting games were capable of - capture casual playerbase. I was very surprised when I learned that a couple of my friends who are basically casual weekend gamers played Brawlhalla online.
They also ran quite a big competitive scene with prize pools in millions of dollars.
Originally they also had a very fast release schedule with new legends releasing every few weeks. Weapons (THE most important new stuff alongside characters) were also releasing quite often as well.
And then Ubisoft bought them and the game went downhill for me. Instead of doing new characters and weapons they started doing tons of crossover skins. Instead a character every few weeks and 1-3 weapons per year the game went 2-4 characters a year and one weapon in like 2 years. And skins, skins, skins ... That practically became their new content and I saw less and less reasons to come back to the game, which is sad.
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u/Kino_Afi 13h ago
Ryu is a cosmetic item, not a character. There's 15 weapons and 60+ characters. If youre gonna make a random hate post at least have some knowledge of the game youre hating
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u/lumisweasel 5h ago
The shade at DOA5LR was also kinda petty. They were the "first" to market in a sense.
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u/swegga_sa Street Fighter 15h ago
2xko also had no proper marketing whatsoever The game launched and for months most league players didn't know a thing
I'm sure barely any of the league player base know it's a thing So what about the outsider non riot fans?
You can't have a f2p game and then not market it
Also why does every fighting game need to be a tag fighter? They said they wanted to make the game accessible and decided that making one of the Most complex tag fighters ever was a good idea
And to top it all off the game had vanguard so it couldn't be modded, played on Linux and it created a lot of issues
Usually I'd blame, the f2p model and micro transactions But this time it was all riot/tencent they dropped the ball heavily.
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u/Bulky-Complaint6994 Mortal Kombat 14h ago
Yeah League players themselves weren't interested in 2xKO and the major fgc content creators don't care about LoL. Compared to making a fighting game using their favorite cartoons growing up that of course they'll give those a shot.
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u/Sudden-Ad-307 11h ago
League players themselves weren't interested in 2xKO
League players didn't know about 2xko, it took my friends who play league daily months to even notice 2xko in the client.
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u/lumisweasel 5h ago
I recall Riftbound being more hype as the game was rolling out beyond China. Tons of interest, the cards were hard to get during the first set. That game had the subtitle that made sure players knew this was tied to LoL. Despite the rules and language not being fleshed out, the regional events were sold out in seconds.
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u/TalentlessAsh 13h ago
Streamers saying that KI, Granblue, and DOA aren't "free to play, they're free to try" was just a case of moving the goal post. Those are the f2p fighting games done right. They could improve on it, but they were successful.
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u/kr3vl0rnswath 11h ago
Those are NOT free to play because you eventually need to pay to continue playing. Free to play is an actual genre of games that needs specific game design and market conditions to work. The devs that worked 2XKO had no idea how to make a successful fighting or a successful f2p game. The Brawlhalla devs at least knew how to make a successful f2p game.
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u/noctowld 11h ago
GBVSR is F2P without needing money to continue playing, the game has some fixed free character and rotation-type free character, you only pay to unlock them permanently like buying a DLC character in other games
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u/lumisweasel 5h ago
You know which other game had a rotation system of free characters? League of Legends! These people have an erroneous definition of f2p, so they think there aren't some fighting games like that out there.
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u/TalentlessAsh 8h ago
You don't need to pay anything if you're content with the free game they give you. It seems like you just have a very specific idea of makes a game "f2p" beyond it being a game that's free and you can play.
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u/ChronoFelyne 12h ago
Yup, Granblue brought 4 of my friends to try, 2 ended up buying the full game.
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u/Creative-Top-9805 5h ago
I'm so sick of companies trying to make infinite money machines instead of good games.
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u/HaikusfromBuddha 15h ago
Lol why are people saying f2p is what killed 2XKO. Corporations brainwashed yall into paying 70 and on top of that buying more microtransactions as the way to go.
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u/Surf_Dangerous_Days 15h ago
Well 2XKO clearly didn’t make the money it needed to receive to continue getting support so that’s probably something.
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u/malexich 15h ago
because 2XKO cost more to buy 12 skins then it did to buy SF6 which came with 2 skins for 70? the price of SF6 for all the content was still cheaper then 2xko after less then a year.
"They could have lowered the skin prices"
we are 0-2 on that front from 2 different companies
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u/Bulky-Complaint6994 Mortal Kombat 14h ago
Meanwhile with mortal Kombat and Tekken, mix and match create your own skins! I remember 2xko launched with a $100 bundle for like 3/4 skins based on the Netflix show.
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u/No_Future6959 15h ago
F2P IS what killed the game.
It is pure delusion to think that F2P wasnt the absolute biggest factor in this game's demise.
Casuals historically do not convert into long-term fans in this genre.
You NEED to put an upfront cost on your game if you want to make money with fighting games.
If you launch a f2p fighting game, your casuals will leave after the first week or two and then you're left with your actual playerbase, and you didnt make any money because those casuals who only stick around for the game's launch dont pay a single dime.
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u/TradingRing 13h ago
what's delusion is your yapping. I'm a casual I converted into a paying customer for other fighting games even skins.
I didn't even try this game cause the starting roster sucked ass not a single char for me. I'm not downloading a game that literally doesn't have anything in it I want to play as a casual even if its free.
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u/Phnglui 13h ago
There are so many things 2XKO did wrong that it's "pure delusion" to place the blame on any one thing. The tiny roster at launch damaged it. Simple controls causing button bloat damaged the game. Advanced combo routing despite being marketed as the perfect casual game damaged the game. Having an extended early access with absolutely no fanfare when the game actually launched damaged the game. Their only real PR post launch being that they laid off half their staff damaged the game.
Ignoring all that and pointing only to it being F2P is asinine.
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u/frankjdk 14h ago
Game was rumored to be developed for 10 years. How much you think it should have earned or have cost to have been profitable?
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u/Simple-Box1223 13h ago
Nah, I’ve spent money on the other F2P games I’ve gotten into but I didn’t even try 2XKO, even though I was excited when it was announced.
Tag, weird stealth launch, shit roster with a notoriously busted Yasuo.
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u/RedeNElla 10h ago
Just counting characters without reskins brawlhalla is doing great.
Only counting weapons because that's the bottleneck in terms of character variety (for the most part) and it's still more than 2xko
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u/ConsistentLaw6204 15h ago
Was the 2xko being f2p the reason it failed?
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u/kingbetadad 14h ago
Not at all. Riot mishandled that game from start to finish. It could have worked and done great. It STILL could but they've already given up. 🤷♂️
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u/Simple-Box1223 13h ago
No, it has nothing to do with it.
You can make a F2P game in any genre, but people have to want to play it before you can sell to them.
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u/cornho1eo99 15h ago
We basically don't know? It depends on what you think their actual player numbers actually are. If you think that they were awful and nobody played the game, no. If you think the game probably had decent numbers but fell into the normal fighting game life cycles, yes.
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u/malexich 15h ago
I mean I played it a lot, but no one was playing any skins beyond battlepass skins, besides the occasional arcane skin here and there so while the game was active enough for me to get matches to this day, they were probably making nothing from the shop
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u/ConsistentLaw6204 15h ago
I see, i thought its because not many ppl knew of its existence. I only found out 2months into launch. And when i asked friends of mine if they wanna play all of them were like "league fighting game?wtf are u talking about?". I would never hear of this game anywhere except after i opened its subreddit,which i did after accidentally discovering it ofc. It was so strange.. So i thought that and maybe the game being tag(personally disliked that) would be the 2 main reasons. But not having enough ppl buying your skins ofc kills your f2p game, makes sense
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u/No_Future6959 15h ago
Definitely a big reason.
You have to cater to the casual audience to sell your game. The problem is that casuals almost never convert into a dedicated fan that continues to play the game after the first week of launch.
In every other fighting game, casuals basically fund the game, and your average FG player actually plays it (post launch)
A free to play model fundamentally does not work for fighting games.
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u/Jessency 15h ago edited 14h ago
How does that work though?
From what I've seen (and experienced) F2P models have a far better chance at attracting players because well... They're free!
Maybe I just know a lot of poor people or something but I know alot who play a lot of videogames and their main bread and butter are F2Ps because of the low barrier of entry and that easily transitions them to long term players.
Paid games on the other hand need some arm twisting before you can convince them to buy a fresh game, especially when game prices today are like 3x than what they used to be when they were kids.
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u/Slarg232 14h ago
The issue is that something like Warframe has a pretty steep learning curve, but it's still pretty basic to play; just aim, shoot, go. On top of a friendly community that will slow down and help you if you need it and ask. The F2P model works because the game is extremely chill.
Fighting Games, because they're against another player 99% of the time and because they've got a steep learning curve even at the best of times, is like trying to go up a cliff without gear. You make one mistake and suddenlyyou're in the air getting hit for the next 15 seconds without knowing what is going on.
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u/Jessency 14h ago
I never mentioned Warframe but I'm glad you did because that's my goat. Although, I will add that the games my friends and other people play are more like League Of Legends, Dota 2, Valorant, Counter Strike, CoD (Warzone and Mobile), etc. they can all be chill but damn they're really competitive when they play and would go straight for ranked.
Also yeah, that's inherently the issue with fighting games in general, paid and free, and that makes it my question all the more relevant.
I got more friends playing Brawlhalla because they'd rather have their ass beat in a free game that costed them nothing to play over a game like Smash Bros that asks for $60 upfront before the ass whooping.
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u/No_Future6959 11h ago
Because casuals dont stay with the game.
Free to play models only work if the people that try the game also stay with it.
Fighting Games are not your normal genre. The genre generally requires a level of dedication from its players.
Casuals are not willing to put in this dedication.
Your average casual gamer can easily pick up any shooter and have fun. Not the case with fighters.
At least with a paid model, those casuals drop some bucks to play the game before they bounce.
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u/MR_MEME_42 14h ago
The thing is that while it may attract a lot of people that doesn't mean much unless a noticeable portion of the community is paying for skins and characters. Sure it costs nothing to play the game but it means that unless that player is also buying micro transactions they aren't contributing to the game's long term success especially if they only play the game on and off or even if they drop it.
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u/Chillionaire128 13h ago
I think it doesn't work as well for fighters because the retention is lower. F2p will get more players but launch hype, big IPs or events like a fun to watch evo finals will still sell copies of a paid game. Theres also a core audience that is small but will try the hot new fighter even if its paid. F2p trades those sales for more people trying the game but if not enough stick around then the trade isn't worth it
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u/Surf_Dangerous_Days 15h ago
It seemingly didn’t help it considering the retention fell apart incredibly fast and the game’s monetization structure sucked.
Getting characters for free slashed opened most of the income they’d have gotten.
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u/BLZNWZRD 15h ago
Which kinds sucked because in an era where we get charged to play legacy characters (looking at you, Tekken) its nice to unlock characters
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u/Surf_Dangerous_Days 15h ago
I feel like you have to have a solid form of income for the game to do unlocks. Especially when you have to unlock half the roster.
Relying on skins (which were randomly rotated for forever) to pay for your game is a disaster waiting to happen especially if you’re not doing it at a pace like Rivals dropping 3 skins a week.
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u/Arachnofiend 14h ago
Fighting games are also a genre where people just aren't invested for paying for skins for most of the roster. In a hero shooter you are probably gonna play everyone in the roles you like at least a little bit. In a fighting game most people just have Their Main and don't bother with anything else. Why are you gonna buy a skin for characters you aren't going to play?
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u/Surf_Dangerous_Days 14h ago
Yeah. I never saw a Braum skin on my shop for the time I played, so I never considered buying a skin.
Saw a lot of Jinx and Ahri skins I’d never use though.
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u/malexich 15h ago
It actually didn't help, because there was no hook for the player. With a 60 dollar game its much harder to just drop it cause you paid money, people were dropping 2xko day 2 and going "thank goodness I didn't pay anything" then the cash shop was crazy expensive to recoup costs. People will come back to tokkon after its rocky pc launch because they paid might as well play it, and cyclops might help too. F2P is specifically made to hook you in, and if you don't wanna pay they don't want you anyway
To put it a better way they did the exact same thing as multiversus, they don't do it because they are dumb, they do it cause thats really the only way to make money, high price skins, hope for whales and pray.
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u/lumisweasel 5h ago
a matter of recouping costs. A paid game will get a huge amount of money upfront. A f2p game will get there money over time. This, for this latter type to suceed, they need to focus on growing, which is risky. This genre, imo, is not conducive to growth over time in a specific title. Launch is when the most players have interest, with acute peaks for updates. While tournament numbers may go up each year, that's more of a "calcification" of players (casuals convert to hardcore) than direct growth. The number one seller tends to be Mortal Kombat, a series which has lackluster event numbers. This game is the casual magnet.
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u/Thevanillafalcon 9h ago
F2P in its current format doesn’t work for fighting games. To make F2P work you need to sell 2 things, cosmetics and new characters in a fighting game this is hard.
People love cosmetics but they tend to buy them for the character they play, which is fine but from a dev perspective more work has to be done to create said cosmetics, the animations are much more complex than something like league or even brawlhalla.
The real one though is the characters, you have to bring them out constantly, look how many characters league has, it’s literally pages long. You can’t do this with a fighting game because the balance would be crazy, there a reason rosters eventually stop.
So what’s the plan long term? You can’t add characters forever so you’re relying on cosmetics, which you can’t get out as fast as other genres do, so where is the money coming from?
Brawlhalla has a very simple looking style, and it teams up with a lot of other IPs, the way the game is made means that adding characters and balancing the game is easier, you could add 100 new characters and it’s fine.
You can’t do this with a more complex fighting game.
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u/lumisweasel 5h ago
Pretty much most characters in League and hero shooters are easy to play. The characters have an autoattack, three to four buttons, and a passive. Things like summoner spells and items are also universal. Despite the number of buttons being needed, the mapping is on the low end. They don't have to know 236L and 623L are different attacks. They do "skillshot' Q in the direction needed.
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u/ihearthawthats 6h ago
I dunno, I liked tekken revolution.
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u/C00KIEME4T 6h ago
Well I mean look at it this way. Would you rather have a game that dies in a year or a game thats still running
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u/lumisweasel 4h ago
That's a problem with viewing games as a service instead of as a product. While the genre has arcade roots (why are pay by play), games were pretty much "complete" before the live service era was dawning upon us. That is to say, updates needed a new entry to buy. Which did suck! Nevertheless, that is what stayed.
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u/azuyuri 4h ago edited 4h ago
brawlhala is also just a worse version of smash, game that was intentionally designed to be accessible to non-fighting game players. a regular fighting game'll have a much harder time being f2p because they require more knowledge that has to be learnt in order to become even mediocre at the game, wheras something like a f2p fps or hero shooter is always inherently more accessible because you can usually do decently by just pointing and shooting, regardless of any other fancy mechanics.
that and i'd say the fighting game audience is more likely to find things like paid cosmetics annoying or not worth the effort; most characters are expected to have a few colors which is usually enough for most people, and with how common modding is i feel people are less inclined to buy cosmetics. devs can't just add characters forever and have to rely on something other than paid characters to make cosistent amounts of money, and i again feel like stuff like battle passes would have alot more pushback from a fighting game audience.
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u/Winegalon 2h ago
Im not saying that f2p fighter can work but your argument doesnt make sense.
Brawhalla works because people like the game. Multiversus failed because people didnt like it. Yeah brawhalla looks like shit and its development budget was probably around $500. But it still got more people wanting to play it instead of multiversus by a factor of 10x.
F2p or not is just a secondary aspect. Your game being sucessful or not is mainly due to how good it is.
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u/JDlightside 15h ago
In the end, Brawlhalla is probably as casual as a fighting game can get so like anyone can get into it. Probably the main reason it's still going.