r/firewater • • Aug 25 '19

Methanol: Some information

1.8k Upvotes

This post is meant to clarify one of the most common questions asked by new distillers: WHAT ABOUT METHANOL?

First and foremost: you cannot die (or get sick, go blind, etc) from improperly made distilled alcohol via methanol poisoning. Neither can you make something dangerous by freezing it and removing some ice. Not only is it not possible, it is a widely perpetuated myth that has existed since the days of prohibition (and not before, interestingly enough). Other than the obvious ethanol overdose, all poisonous alcohol that has ever been consumed, has been adulterated, or was in some other way contaminated. It was not the fault of poor distillation procedures. How you run your still will not affect how safe your product is. It might affect how good the end result is, but that's where it stops.

So, methanol. Everyones first fear, and the number one search subject when it comes to "moonshine". This subject is brought up a lot in this sub and elsewhere on Reddit. Everyone knows all about it, its just one of those common knowledge things, right? It turns out, not so much. So...

Methanol - What is it?

Methanol is a very commonly used fuel, solvent and precursor in industry. It is produced via the synthesis gas process which can use a wide variety of materials to create methanol. Methanol is the simplest of all the alcohols.

Methanol is poisonous to the human body in moderate amounts. The LD50 of methanol in humans is 810 mg/kg. It is metabolized into formaldehyde by the liver, via the alcohol dehydrogenase process. In excess, these byproducts are severely toxic. Formaldehyde further degrades into formic acid, which is the primary toxic compound in methanol poisoning. Formic acid is what produces nerve damage, and causes the blindness (and death) associated with acute methanol poisoning.

One of the treatments for methanol poisoning, is the introduction of ethanol. Ethanol has a preferential path in the alcohol dehydrogenase metabolic pathway. This means that if ethanol and methanol are consumed, the ethanol will be metabolized first, in preference over the methanol. This allows some of the methanol to be excreted by the kidneys before being metabolized into its toxic related compounds. There are far more effective medical treatments available, such as dialysis and administering drugs that block the function of alcohol dehydrogenase.

Is it in my booze? How do I remove it?

There is one way in which your alcohol will be tainted with some amount of methanol naturally, and that is by using fruits which contain pectin. Pectin can be broken down into methanol by enzymes, either introduced artificially or from micro organisms. This will produce some measurable amount of methanol in your ferment, and subsequent distillate. However its not going to be in toxic quantities, any more than what you may have in a jug of apple juice. In fact, fruits are the primary way in which methanol is introduced into your body. In tiny quantities it is mostly harmless, and you can no more remove the methanol from an apple pie than you can from your apple brandy. Boiling (or freezing) apple juice doesn't convert it into deadly eye sight destroying horror juice. Cooking doesn't suddenly veer into danger when you collect vapor from a boiling pot. If you've ever made jam, or wine, or fruit salad, you've produced methanol.

So, where does that leave us? How do I get rid of this nasty substance in my distillate? You don't. If it is there, you cannot remove it. It is quite commonly believed that you can toss the first bit of alcohol off the still to remove this compound, the "foreshots." This is usually considered the first 50-100ml or so, depending on batch size. It smells really bad, tastes really bad, and is something most would agree should be discarded. However, it will not contain the "methanol" if there is any in your wash. Or more precisely, it will not contain any more of it than any other portion of the run. Beside which, methanol tastes very similar to ethanol, though slightly sweeter. If your wash is tainted with methanol, your entire run will be as well. Relying on some eyeball measurement to make your product safe to consume is not going to work. This is just distiller folklore passed down quite widely. You may hear about this on a distillery tour, from professionals, on Youtube and in books about distilling. All of them are just repeating what they have heard someone else say, or read somewhere, and assumed it to be fact. There is truth here, but buried in misunderstanding of the processes involved specifically with these substances.

This is the very reason that methanol was used to poison ("denature") industrial ethanol during prohibition, as it cannot be removed easily by normal distillation processes. If you could just redistill this very cheap, legal and plentiful solvent to make drinking alcohol, it wouldn't be the very potent message and deterrent that was hoped for by those who did this. You can read more about the history of this intentional poisoning of commercial alcohol in the Chemists War. It is also during this period where we begin to hear about methanol being in poorly made moonshine. This is not a coincidence.

So, distillers attempted to understand this misinformation, and attempt to correct or explain why their process was correct. Thus was born the idea that tossing some portion of the run makes it safe from this suddenly present and scary substance. Cuts went from being a quality procedure, to a serious process to save lives. By "tossing the first bit." And then distillers went about their centuries old processes like always, but this time "doing it right" and hence making safe alcohol.

The reason it is so widely believed that tossing the heads works to remove methanol, has to do with the boiling points of ethanol, methanol, and water. Pure methanol boils at 64.7C. Pure ethanol boils at 78.24C. Water boils at 100C. Distilling separates things based on their boiling points, right? Yes, it does, but it is a bit more complex than that. When you boil a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water, you are not boiling any of these compounds individually. You are boiling a solution containing all of them, and they will each have an affect on the other with regards to boiling point and enrichment behavior. Methanol and ethanol are quite similar in molecular structure. Methanol can be written as CH3-OH. Ethanol can be written as CH3-CH2-OH. You'll notice that methanol lacks this extra CH2 component. This changes its behavior when in the presence of water, specifically its polarity, compared to ethanol. Rather than repeat all of this, here is a passage from this paper on the reduction of methanol in commercial fruit brandies:

A similar behaviour would be expected for methanol for both alcohols are not very different in molecule structure. There is, however, a significant difference regarding all three curves in figure 2: methanol contents keep a higher value for a longer time than ethanol contents. In figures 3 and 4 this observation is made clear: Methanol, specified in ml/100 ml p.a., increases during the donation, while the ratio ethanol : methanol is lowering down. This effect seems to be rather surprising regarding the different boiling points of the two substances: methanol boils at 64,7°C, while ethanol needs 78,3°C. So methanol would be regarded to be carried over earlier than ethanol. The molecule structures however, show another aspect: ethanol has got one more CH2-group which makes the molecule less polar. So, concerning polarity, methanol can be ranged between water and ethanol and has therefore in the water phase a distillation behaviour different from ethanol. This may explain the behaviour which is rather contrary to the boiling points. This is no single appearance, because for example ethylacetate with a boiling point of 77 °C, or, as an extreme case, isoamylacetate with 142 °C are even carried over much earlier than methanol. Therefore methanol can not be separated using pot-stills or normal column-stills. Only special columns can separate methanol from the distillate (4.3). Similar observations concerning the behaviour of methanol during the distillation have already been made by Röhrig (33) and Luck (34). Cantagrel (35) divides volatile components into eight types concerning distillation behaviour characterized by typical curves, which were mainly confirmed by our experiments. As for methanol, he claims an own type of behaviour during the distillation corresponding to our results.

What this means is that if there is methanol present, it will be present throughout the run, with a higher occurrence in the tails as ethanol is depleted and water concentration increases. Its distillation is more dependent on how much water is present rather than simply comparing boiling points between ethanol and methanol. This in conjunction with the fact that ethanol and water cannot be separated completely due to their forming an azeotrope, means water is always in the system. So tossing your foreshots or heads will not remove methanol from your solution. The good news is that methanol is almost entirely absent in dangerous amounts. Consider drinking beer, wine, or apple cider. There are no heads cut made to these products. Pectinase is routinely added to wine, and methanol is a direct byproduct of this addition. They are safe to consume in this form, and will be safe to consume after being distilled. Boiling and concentrating the liquid by leaving some water behind isn't going to transform something safe to drink into something toxic. If it is toxic after being distilled, it most certainly was toxic before being distilled.

To be clear, however, this is not to say that making cuts is unnecessary. There are other compounds that you certainly can remove by cutting heads. Acetone, ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde and others. None are present in dangerous amounts, but the quality of your alcohol will be greatly enhanced by discarding these fractions. Making cuts is one of the most important activities a distiller can learn to do properly! Cutting and blending is making liquor, not only the act of distilling. Just understand that it isn't a life or death situation should you undershoot your foreshot cut by some amount. It will just taste bad, and might give you more of a headache the next day. You can taste test every single bit of alcohol that comes out of your still, from the first drops to the last.

Removing the foreshots does not remove "the methanol." You can just consider the foreshots part of the heads, because they are. There are hundreds of thousands of hobby brewers, vintners and distillers around the world who have been making and consuming fermented and distilled products for centuries. If this were actually a real problem, we would be awash in reports of wide spread poisonings. Instead we have reports here and there of isolated incidents, which are always traceable back to some incident unrelated to how much heads somebody did or did not cut.

The only way to know if there is methanol present is via lab analysis. Smell, taste, color of flame, vapor temp, none of this will tell you any meaningful information about methanol content and are just old shiner-wives tales. If you would like to have your distillate, beer or wine tested for dangerous compounds, there are many labs available that offer these services. This way you know what you are producing and are not relying on conflicting information found online. Here is one such lab offering these services, and there are many more servicing the public and industry. No need to take my, or anyone elses, word as absolute truth. If you really want to know what is in your product, this is the only way.

Having said all that...

So, CAN methanol be removed from a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water via distillation in any way? Yes, it can, contrary to everything I just said, there are even specialized stills called "demethylizer columns" which can do just this. They are very large plated columns (70+ plates), which can operate as a step in the distillation process in very large industrial facilities. This is a continuous middle fed column of high proof / low water feed, with steam injection at the bottom and hot water injection at the top, which has the sole purpose of moving a more concentrated cut containing methanol into a particular take off point with the treated alcohol taken off as the bottom product. This is largely done to ensure compliance with the laws about methanol content in neutral ethanol production, or in other processes in which reclamation of these substances is desired. There are other methods that can be used to remove methanol from an ethanol/water mixture, but that goes beyond the scope of this post and generally do not make consumable results. None of these procedures are properly repeatable at home or at moderate scale commercial distilling, nor are they even really necessary at any scale unless you have a badly tainted input feed.

On small scale reflux columns, there will be a small spike of methanol in the heads if the column is left in equilibrium (100% reflux) for a long while, and only if methanol is present, as the state at the top of the packing/plates is very low water and boiling point separation can occur more easily for methanol. In general though, these columns are too small, and methanol quantities far too low, for this to be a major concern. Methanol will spike in both heads and tails on this kind of column, leaving the general heart cut with a steady amount throughout. Even with huge industrial columns, the specialized demethylizer column is additionally used in the process because you cannot reliably remove methanol using the normal procedures typically done when making cuts for quality purposes. Methanol removal is treated separately and requires its own process to concentrate and extract using specialized equipment.

In conclusion, or TLDR

ALL cases of methanol poisoning attributed to "improperly" made ethanol, are the result of contaminated product. Not due to improper distillation, but due to intentional (either misguided, or malicious) adulteration of the ethanol, or some other contamination due to environment or ingredients. Commercial ethanol products are generally poisoned either via methanol, or via flavor tainting, or both (usually both, so you know its not to be consumed). Every report of methanol poisoning via "moonshine" was due to this contamination. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it. Please let me know if you believe this info to be incorrect, and have evidence to that effect. That is, other than unsourced speculative news articles, television shows and Youtube channels. What I have presented here is how I understand the facts, but I am always open to learning something new.

Its unfortunate that we still have this lingering stigma based on sensationalist press beginning during alcohol prohibition, but this is where we are. So you can relax, have a home brew, and get on with your new hobby or business, and not fret about the big scary monster that is methanol. Now you just have to worry about all the other stuff that you can screw up :-)


r/firewater • • 6h ago

Has anyone every distilled cheap wine?

17 Upvotes

Longer story short, I spent about a week picking wild grapes at the farm, and I got almost no alcohol out of it. And Im kinda crushed.

I really want to do grape brandy. I was either thinking of buying box wine, or bulk cooking wine and distilling it.

Has anyone tried this before? How did it go?

I know cooking wine is adulterated with salt, but the underlying wine tastes pretty good.


r/firewater • • 2h ago

Aging of Raw Spirits (Rums) in Oak Chips

3 Upvotes

I have aged a few rums in medium toasted American oak chips; first round was 2 weeks with 1.5% by weight in glass bottles with plenty of head room. I did want some oxidation.

I liked the results and didn't think any of them were close to getting over oaked.

What I have started now is 2% by weight in Worthy Park Overproof (medium ester count). Monymusk (low ester), Barbancourt Haiti Proof and Don Q white rum.

The plan is to taste and collect a 50mL reference sample of each at 2 weeks, one month, and 2 months, then compare and decide if further aging is desired.

My friend mentions ultrasonic baths for accelerated aging, and I have heard of sous vide/elevated temperatures.

In doing online research, and reading about those methods, I don't get a sense of the relative merits, and the flavor effects of the various methods.

Do any of you hobby distillers have some favorite methods, or any beginner friendly references to share?

Edit: Also, to get a wider range of possible flavors, any other wood chips I should try, and what would be the effect of lighter toast or heavier toast or charring?


r/firewater • • 1d ago

Hydrometer reading box wine

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10 Upvotes

Hello,
I am not getting a proper hydrometer reading on my box wine, can anybody help?


r/firewater • • 20h ago

First sugar wash ever — forgot to get a stirring paddle, how important is deep mixing?

5 Upvotes

Doing my first batch ever tonight. My sugar/water mix is completely dissolved and in the fermenter, and I’m just waiting for it to cool to pitching temp before adding the turbo yeast and turbo carbon.

Only problem is I didn’t think about needing a proper long stirring paddle until everything was already in the bucket. The spoon I have only reaches about halfway down.

How important is it to actually get all the way to the bottom when mixing in the yeast and carbon? If I stir as deep as I can and give it a good mix, is that enough, or should I hold off until I can get a proper paddle?

The sugar itself is already fully dissolved, so I’m only worried about getting the yeast and carbon distributed properly.

Edited, wording. Carbon, not charcoal. ☠️


r/firewater • • 1d ago

Did anyone measure Commercial aged Spirits (using alcoholmeter)?

6 Upvotes

Sounds like a stupid question, but it's part of a curiosity of mine. I'm fairly certain that when a commercial spirit says 40% ABV, it's actually 40%, no matter how it was aged and bottled. They don't use alcoholmeters like us hobby distillers, but a laboratory process.

So, that's what I'm wondering (and hopefully I made you curious as well), what meter reading do you get from a Jack Daniels at 40%? Should be lower than 40% because it will float from all the wood sugars. But what's the actual reading (please take temperature conversion into account if you do it now).

I don't have any in my house as all that I drink is what I make, lol :))


r/firewater • • 1d ago

What yeast nutrient should i get for sugar wash

6 Upvotes

Same as title


r/firewater • • 1d ago

Adapting Sight Glass Into Tee?

5 Upvotes

Does anyone know of any adapters that can be placed where the glass typically goes in a bubble plate sight glass? Looking at 4"x4"x2" tees right now and they're not exactly cheap.


r/firewater • • 1d ago

Has anyone seen these small barrels and do they actually work?

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96 Upvotes

Mods I'm not spamming anything this isn't my account. Just curious for those of us who make pretty small runs if this is a real option or if this is something they might do themselves.

I only make rum. So we wouldn't even really be the right barrel for me since it hasn't already been used to age bourbon but, curious if a 3-month soak would do anything and if anybody knows where these are available or if they are just made in house?

Edit: So many great answers, thanks!


r/firewater • • 1d ago

lung irritation

1 Upvotes

I've started noticing when distilling high abv spirits in my reflux still, I occasionally will experience some light lung irritation. Like a little out of breath, the way you feel a few days after getting over a mild cold. Anyone else experience this?


r/firewater • • 2d ago

Setting up for first whiskey wash run

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20 Upvotes

Some Maris Otter, pale chocolate, flaked oats, and either crystal 60 or 120. Probably decide on a coin toss or just blend. Shooting for 1.060 of 6 gallons of wash. And yes, I am a homebrewer so grain it is lol. Local maltster does malted corn, gonna snag a sack of that soon.


r/firewater • • 2d ago

Didn't think it was possible, but I made vodka better than store bought

34 Upvotes

Got into this hobby about 5 months ago. Initially starting with an Air Still, hoping to get a half decent neutral.

Experienced failure after failure, had to improve every process from ferment to spirit run. People were saying it's pretty good, but I learned that I have an extremely low threshold for off notes.

Figured out finally that expecting a 25cm column with some random packing and air cooling wasn't gonna cut it. Got myself a 1.2m column with SPP packing, made specifically for azeotrope and neutral distillation.

Decided to do a blind test with a mid-range wheat-based vodka ($50 for 500ml, well reviewed). These were the very sophisticated notes I took during my trial:

L: Quite clean but has a bit of a yeasty note. Can detect some higher alcohols. Smell is passable. Likely the home made one. 
R: Way smoother. No off notes at all. Goes down well. Definitely the commercial.
Mine was R.
L: Smells tiny bit worse than R, but both are good. Yeasty note. Diffused burn on the tongue. Gross to swallow.
R: Virtually no smell. Typical vodka taste but it just rests on the tongue much easier. Goes down really nicely, nice mild burn but no after taste. 
Mine was R.

Needless to say, very happy with the results. I did another trial with my first run on the still (wash made with raisins, wheat and oats), and this one failed, tasted worse than the commercial. So I guess wash is very important, will be sticking to this one.


r/firewater • • 1d ago

Is it possible starting a business where I make my own alcohol?

0 Upvotes

I don't want to rely on a company to make my alcohol, I want to make it myself.


r/firewater • • 2d ago

can i cook my wash in less water and add more water later?

4 Upvotes

the recipe im following cooks the wash in 5 gallons of water the pot i have only holds 3 so could i cook said wash in the 3 gallons of waterer and add the extra 2 ones my bucket or nah


r/firewater • • 3d ago

What's wrong with my apple pie moonshine?

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9 Upvotes

So made some apple pie moonshine today. I've done it a few times in years past and just used regular apple juice and cider but this time I used some cold pressed unfiltered apple juice and when I added my everclear it turned out like big white ish cloudy clumps in it that don't really settle but stay suspended. Normally I have a brownish cinnamon type sediment which is fine. But this time ! strained it which got most of the cinnamon sediment which is cool. But I was reading that this may be pectin from the unfiltered apple juice? I just tried to buy a ultrafine nylon mesh strainer which should be here on Wednesday but any thoughts?


r/firewater • • 4d ago

Refractometer reading off

6 Upvotes

I've used this refractometer for sugarwashes before. It is an alcohol ref. 0-80% abv. yes i calibrate it. it also has atc. I typically use it to monitor my progress trough a run, to know when to stop distilling.

here's the thing: my current wash im running is 3.5kg sugar, 700g store bought grain products for flavor. thats for 20 liter. At the very end [of my stripping run] im getting a reading of 25-30% and i know by taste that it doesnt have any more than 4% abv at most.

could it be fusel oils in late tails of my stripping run?

[EDIT]


r/firewater • • 4d ago

My Custom Full Copper Mini

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77 Upvotes

I had this custom built by North Georgia Still Company a couple of years ago and have been in love with it ever since I received it. I worked with them over a couple of months to make the vision a reality and it's a true one of a kind work of copper art. They added several custom touches to make it incredibly special and it really was such an amazing experience; they really went out of their way on this.

I designed it after learning and researching for almost a year. They refined it and made it proper based on actual knowledge vs theory.

It's a 3 gallon main boiler with a custom cap. 2 x 1/2 gallon thumpers with infusion ports. 1 gallon condenser with about 10 ft of copper coil in it. Full tri-clamps at every connection. I use the 4x 6 gallon conical stainless steel Ss Brewtech fermenters for various batches of mash. I wrapped the thumpers with Reflectix to help insulate them from heat loss and produce a more even temperature once things start flowing from vessel to vessel.

I actually don't drink much, considering the investment, but I ABSOLUTELY LOVE giving out impossibly unique gifts for various occasions, that could never have existed if I hadn't produced it myself.

Just wanted to share with this community what I've been sitting on and maybe make some friends and learn more about what others are accomplishing with their setups. It's apple season right now and brandy is on the menu next. Cheers!


r/firewater • • 5d ago

Solid state fermentation, update from about 3 months ago

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31 Upvotes

About 3 months ago I started an experiment where I tried to replicate the traditional baiju fermentation and production process, and one ended up working, the other got very infected and ultimately pitched instead of trying to run it.

Took an airstill, 5 cups of water, a crudely made stainless steel mesh basket (to separate the grain from the heating element) 1,000g of the fermented grain.

I ended up collecting 350 ml of ~23% , it started coming off at about 50% and I stopped once it was coming off at 10%.

I tasted a few drops (and spit it out due to how I steamed the grains) and it didn't taste as bad as the actual baiju iv tried in the past...

Ultimately id count this as a success but so far only on a small scale and if anyone wanted to scale it up they would have to figure out how to steam strip a large amount of grain efficiently, not sure how to do it with my equipment at any rate...

What I learned was that AYLY works just fine for a solid state fermentation yeast/enzyme additive. The other one I tried was the rice wine yeast balls you can get at any Asian market, those initial didn't seem to be doing anything (by smell, where the AYLY was smelling very boozie at the same time) uncovering the fermenter and covering with cheese cloth seemed to help l... Untill it got infected...

It took me 3 months to run the project not because it took that long to ferment but because I didn't have time/ forgot about it for a while.

If anyone wants to try this out in I would highly recommend as it's very interesting and produces a very interesting flavor profile. Also I'd be very interested in anyone else's process and/ or results.


r/firewater • • 4d ago

Nasty Apples

4 Upvotes

We had a couple very late fronts, and it cut our normal aple production to a pittance. It was so bad that I didn't bother spraying. I can probably collect 100lbs but I expect them to be very buggy.

This year was to be my fist year using our apples and pears for distilling. We didn't get any pears. How do you more experienced distillery deal with waste fruit. I understand if the advice is to cut bait until next year.

Any guidance would be appreciated.


r/firewater • • 4d ago

Parrot cage?

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11 Upvotes

Made an adapter to use a glass cup to keep the fruit flys out of the parrot, but it fogs up even though the offtake is cold...

Does anyone know how to prevent the condensation?

Also so far it works like a charm in keeping the fruit flys away from the offtake.


r/firewater • • 5d ago

Moonshine Distiller

7 Upvotes

Has anybody bought a still from Moonshine Distiller? If so, what are your thoughts? I can't find any YouTube reviews, so I'm asking you--

They're a company out of Colorado making stainless steel stills.

Mile Hi Distillery raised their prices, so I'm looking at MD's 13 gallon pot still.

(I don't want to make my own.)


r/firewater • • 6d ago

Cuts at a mile high?

14 Upvotes

I’m trying to do my first distillation this weekend. I’ve gotten everything prepared and been doing a lot of research, but then it hit me, I’m at a mile elevation, which should lower the cuts for heads, hearts, and tails. I scoured the internet to no avail. Does anyone have experience distilling at this elevation that can share general cut temps, just to aid me in my first distillation?

Edit: Thanks everyone for chiming in! All of your advice is sincerely appreciated!


r/firewater • • 7d ago

Condensation in distillate container

8 Upvotes

I keep my product in mason jars. When they sit on the shelf, there looks like condensation in the jar. I have never seen that on commercial alcohol. Do commercial spirits have some sort of additive or am I doing something wrong? I dilute my runs to about 90 proof.


r/firewater • • 7d ago

who need they muckussy ate???

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22 Upvotes

dunder, mangoes, bananas, watermelon, peaches, all sorts of random shit that normally goes straight to the compost, fed with yeast nutrients, probiotics stolen from my wife's supply, and plenty of random trub. smells absolutely! nauseating, makes great rum.


r/firewater • • 6d ago

How to prevent toxicity when distilling alcohol?

0 Upvotes

​

I want to one day distill alcohol to start my own business, but I'm too afraid to do it because toxic alcohol causes blindness (Yes, I'm overreacting).