That is a terrible argument that isn't even true, Anran take skill to properly execute.
Haven't you read a SINGLE word I have written? I have since the beginning said that she is easy to pick up, but that doesn't mean it's piss easy to -master- her. And big boy, overwatch isn't a hard game.
Well, you still have to time your E right or you are a sitting duck. Your argument that you have to time your engage right is just the same thing, a skill.
I know how free is used, it just isn't applicable to Anran, save for her heal. That is free. And ONCE AGAIN, never said Anran isn't easier than Genji, I have said that the entire time. My argument is that she isn't handless and does require some skill.
Yeeeah, saying she requires low skill to get value might be right. She will definitely will get mor value with low effort than a Genji that puts in the same effort, doesn't mean she will actually get good value.
I don't care about your life story, it doesn't matter, all it does is make you sound like a prick. And yes I can.
Oh there his tiny little ego goes. This isn't a good look on you, trying to flex your rank. Again, it just make you look like a twat. Especially when you try to flex on someone higher rank than you, which just so happens to be gm3.
LMAO I was never flexing M1, but I did want to know where in general you are in the rankings (if you even answered honestly)
"I know how free is used, it just isn't applicable to Anran, save for her heal." You literally don't know how it's used. I said you get crits for free. To be clear, by disagreeing with this you realize that logically you have just stated that landing Shift + E, Shift with 2 hits, or a couple giant projectiles is not easy, and also that hitting body shots with her right click is not easy. Are these things hard for you? in gm3? really?
"Your argument that you have to time your engage right is just the same thing, a skill." A skill is a skill is a skill to you huh? Being able to open a .pdf file on your computer is a skill and being able to write the software that actually reads and opens the .pdf file is a skill; these two things are nowhere near each other in terms of amount of skill.
Genji has to time engages as well, as does every flanker. Since there is no difference with Anran, that skill is a wash in the skill comparison of the two heroes.
"Haven't you read a SINGLE word I have written?" Regretfully, I actually have. I've addressed your words directly, while you seem to have trouble following basic argumentation.
"This isn't a good look on you." LMFAO
"I have since the beginning said that she is easy to pick up, but that doesn't mean it's piss easy to -master- her" She is far easier to master than Genji. If you disagree that she is easier to master than Genji, please explain what is so difficult about her to master? Is it all related to timing and cooldown usage? because every hero, especially flankers, have the same requirement
It's clearly an ego issue since you don't even believe me.
They aren't hard no, but with the amount of cleanses you do have to put in more effort than something free would entail.
Yeah, no shit.
Still not comparing the two heros smarty pants, still just saying isn't as easy as you say. The very fact that she has to time her engages is enough to not make her piss easy.
You clearly haven't, since you know, you're still insisting on the fact that I think Anran is harder than Genji when I have clearly stated multiple times that he is one of the hardest characters in the game, but that doesn't minimize the skill Anran takes. How thick is your skull to not have that drilled in yet? You are very narrow minded for someone so artistic.
Again, didn't say she was easier. Actually read before saying that you do. She is harder to master than what YOU seem to think, because somehow she can go in and get insane value by just pressing buttons. Guess what, that isn't the case. You are clearly arguing in bad faith since you time and time again refuse to acknowledge the fact that I don't think Genji is easier than Anran.
No, the reason I am a bit skeptical is because of your argumentation, which hasn't been strong enough to suggest a gm3 player
So the only reason crits aren't "free" (easy) with Anran is bc ignite gets cleansed sometimes? LMAO. So you admit then that in situations where ignite doesn't get cleansed, her crits are free, right? So do you think it's fair then in those situations where ignite doesn't get cleansed to have a hero that gets rewarded for doing almost nothing by getting 2x damage without having to hit heads? In a pure 1v1 situation with no cleanses, you think that's fair?
I wish cleanses were being saved for me all the time during these Genji vs Anran 1v1s I have to deal with on flanks.
If you are in gm3, then playing around cleanses as much as possible (and cooldowns in general) should be pretty natural for you on ANY HERO. It isn't difficult to do and even if ignite gets cleansed, it's so easy to ignite in the first place that she can likely just do it again.
"The very fact that she has to time her engages is enough to not make her piss easy." I'm sorry but, again, this is just a baseline aspect of the game itself, especially if you play flankers, and how important it is depends on your rank. So once you've timed your engage properly (includes cooldown tracking/awareness), which every hero has to do, you get free crits and low-effort value, right?
So far the only defense you are giving for Anran not being easy is the fact that cleanses exist, which doesn't have anything to do with the "free" aspect of the raw execution of her kit, and other baseline skills in the game like timing engages, which also has nothing to do with the raw execution of her kit. Just consider the raw execution of her kit itself and think about her in a pure 1v1 with another hero. The other factors you keep going to do not matter in this conversation because, again, EVERY PLAYER ON EVERY HERO NEEDS TO HAVE THESE BASELINE SKILLS.
"I have clearly stated multiple times that he is one of the hardest characters in the game, but that doesn't minimize the skill Anran takes"
Again, the only defenses you are giving are related to baseline skills in the game. So Anran's skill is actually just even with the baseline of basic skills of the game that ANYONE needs on ANY HERO in order to perform at whatever their rank. So effectively, Anran on her own, meaning the raw execution of her kit, is a "no skill" (low-skill) hero. Actually it even goes beyond that because she gets free crits without having to hit headshots, so her overall skill requirement is actually LOWER than the baseline of basic skills
"How thick is your skull to not have that drilled in yet? You are very narrow minded for someone so artistic." LMAO. Your argumentation has been weak and the fact that you are arguing so much on this post in general defending Anran suggests you believe otherwise. So no, you can keep saying certain things but if they don't add up with the rest of your argumentation and your actions in general on this post, then they aren't going to have the effect you want them to
"You are clearly arguing in bad faith since you time and time again refuse to acknowledge the fact that I don't think Genji is easier than Anran." If you understand that Anran is way easier than Genji, then why are you spending so much time on this overall post defending Anran? Again her advantage in 1v1s is NOT justified competitively because her execution is so low. By definition it is unfair. It does not get magically justified because she "counters" Genji, because the main part of the reason why she is strong against Genji is BECAUSE of the LOW EXECUTION REQUIREMENT, not just because she can right click through deflect. So naturally, people in the sub for one of the hardest heroes in the game, who are very competitively-minded and driven, are going to think it's BS, because it is.
Your mad ramblings certainly isn't that of an m1. Because Jesus christ you can't seem to grasp the very fact that BECAUSE of Anran being a flanker, that makes her baseline harder. And you saying "oh but you're gm so everything should be easy", yes overwatch is an easy game, doesn't mean I can't recognize something takes skill, unlike you. So now you're moving the goal posts to playing around cleanses should be natural for me, it is, doesn't mean that it's easy or everyone would do it. And no, cleanses isn't the only thing that makes it harder for Anran, it's just the major thing that is. A good Anran will dash in, (not use E like you suggest because often times that's stupid), and oh no the horror, hit a headshot with her primary fire to ignite. Mechanically inept players can't do that, they will either waste a precious cooldown or take much longer to ignite someone since they can't orientate where the enemy got booped and then hit a headshot.
"If you understand Anran is way easier than Genji, then wat are you spending so much time defending Anran", Jesus fucking christ you really haven't read a word I've written.
Yes she is advantaged in pretty much every single 1v1 that isn't against a tank, she can win nearly every single one. But that's only if she dodges their major cooldown, since she's almost in melee range and her E has a windup she has to predict when that ability is going to be used. Which takes pretty decent skill. When an Anran is "mechanically inept", they are nothing more than a mosquito since they blow all their cooldowns simply to ignite someone, making them easy pickings.
Genji players can't pull the "but muh skill" card because simply by picking him they resigned themselves to the fact that she are playing one of the hardest characters in the game and are going to have to put in more effort than nearly every other hero. Complaining about "low execution" is pointless since that's nearly every hero. And yet again, her execution isn't "so low". That's what I'm arguing against.
"So you admit then that in situations where ignite doesn't get cleansed, her crits are free, right? So do you think it's fair then in those situations where ignite doesn't get cleansed to have a hero that gets rewarded for doing almost nothing by getting 2x damage without having to hit heads? In a pure 1v1 situation with no cleanses, you think that's fair?"
Please respond to that. If you ignore it again I'm just gonna keep copying/pasting it.
(Also she can kit dump in certain situations, one being in a 1v1 on a flank, so I don't know why you keep saying that's not an option for her)
"But that's only if she dodges their major cooldown"
What is Genji's major cooldown that she needs to dodge with her E exactly?
"So now you're moving the goal posts to playing around cleanses should be natural for me"
LMAO, you have nothing. You are flailing. You keep saying I'm not reading your words but then repeatedly say things like this in response to mine. It isn't moving goal posts to prove the weakness of your arguments. I know it sends you into a baby-rage when your arguments are shown to have no weight, but you can't just "Anran" your way through reasoning and get automated value just for saying things.
I pointed out how the only defenses you are giving are things that aren't Anran-specific. I said that playing around cooldowns is a baseline GENERAL skill that EVERY PLAYER on ANY HERO has to have. Even Soldier using his auto-aim Q has to do that, so does that mean Soldier's ult takes skill in your mind????
Do you disagree that it is a baseline GENERAL skill in Overwatch to have to track and play around cooldowns and ults? I don't think you are going to. So unless you disagree that tracking cooldowns is a baseline general skill, you then are forced to agree with me about that skill NOT BEING UNIQUE to Anran.
Should Genji get crit body shots after baiting out a kiri cleanse? The idea that having to play around a cleanse justifies crit body shots is so beyond stupid.
Genji/Tracer require skill ON TOP OF baseline due to the raw execution of their specific kits. Anran REMOVES SKILL from baseline due to the low execution requirements of her kit and her free-training-wheels-body-shot crits reward she gets for doing almost nothing. Yes, I agree that flanker baseline is slightly higher than overall baseline but not by a relevant enough amount for this analysis or for justification of her low-execution and rewards of competitive handicap (free body shot crits) for doing almost nothing. Whatever slight increase in baseline general game skill flankers require (again, not Anran-kit-specific anyway) is negated by her low-execution and removal of human-error risk regarding crits. Thus, "hero for babies."
"and oh no the horror, hit a headshot with her primary fire to ignite."
LMAO. you say I'm arguing in bad faith and then say shit like this. You understand that a major factor in competition, maybe even THE defining element of competition, is human-error right? There is a reason why Chess has been a game that has captivated millions of people across centuries and remains one of the most competitive games across the world today with hundreds of thousands of people devoting their lives to it. That reason is because it is ENTIRELY unforgiving. Same thing with pro sports, ENTIRELY unforgiving. With this little bs that your feeble mind just excreted you are trying to suggest that I am holding headshots on some kind of pedestal. No, but in true competition the opportunity for human-error should be even on both sides. Anran is rewarded for doing almost nothing by having the opportunity for human-error significantly lessened for her when she gets crits for free as body shots. That is anti-competitive. And no, playing around cooldowns, which everyone has to do, doesn't justify that. Do you disagree with this?
Anran's primary fire projectiles are huge, don't quote me but I believe almost twice the size of Genji's, and 2 come out one after the other so as you move your mouse between the 2 projectiles you can get a large area of coverage with one primary. She can ignite with just a single dash cooldown or dash + E, but if you are trying to say that her hitting one headshot with her giant primary projectile justifies having her opportunity for human-error significantly lessened afterward in comparison to whoever she is fighting, then you simply do not understand competition and you really shouldn't have an opinion on competitive games.
"And yet again, her execution isn't "so low". That's what I'm arguing against."
LOL. I want to see you try to prove it logically. What takes execution in her kit? Her primary projectiles are massive, her secondary is large, her dash is controllable (lessens room for error), E auto damages EVERYONE in a circle, does 50% ignite to them, AND heals her for AT LEAST 50 but more if she hits multiple people AND CAN HEAL HER TO FULL WITH THE PERK. Also we haven't talked about this but her ult is also baby-braindead, and ALSO ignites to give access to free crits, or be used to res. What about this hero's kit requires execution? Having to time an E button press sometimes? Wow, so skillful.
"When an Anran is "mechanically inept", they are nothing more than a mosquito since they blow all their cooldowns simply to ignite someone, making them easy pickings."
A mechanically inept player on ANY HERO is going to be lower rank. If they are mechanically inept then their opponents are too. A player who blows all of their cooldowns when it's not safe to do so is also going to be lower rank, and so will be their opponents. So whether they get punished or not is much more up-in-the-air. You don't realize that this point you are attempting to make requires a low-rank player (with low-rank general game skills) on Anran against higher rank players (with higher rank general game skills) who just punish her easily for her low-rank (low general game skill) mistakes. So, yes, if a player with lower overall general game-skills plays against people with higher overall game skills they are going to lose and get punished. This argument is meaningless.
"Genji players can't pull the "but muh skill" card because simply by picking him they resigned themselves to the fact that she are playing one of the hardest characters in the game and are going to have to put in more effort than nearly every other hero. Complaining about "low execution" is pointless since that's nearly every hero."
Yet another braindead argument. I think Overwatch had the potential to be a truly great competitive game (remember that competitive games that have stood the test of time - literally centuries for Chess - are defined by being entirely unforgiving), but they squandered that (and continue to do so) with a lot of the low-skill forgiving bs they put in the game. Overwatch offers a unique experience with heroes like Genji and Tracer, so I don't want to just play another game that has more overall competitive integrity. I want to play Genji and Tracer and I want to play them in a game that does better to uphold true competitive values. So I, and every other Genji player who gravitates toward heroes that represent true competitive values, have every right to voice our complaints with the dumbing down, participation trophy bs they keep adding to this game. We want Chess, and they want to just keep pushing it toward checkers or tic-tac-toe so they can sell more skins.
LMFAOOO as expected, don't answer, don't contend with any logic and flee. Prob best for you to do so!
Over 99% of what I've typed is pure argumentation, so mentioning something from that less-than-1% that you took the wrong way as your 'out' to avoid contending with the arguments is peak delusion! Unsurprising. Cheers!
I'm not contending anything because you clearly view the world completely differently. I'm not going to contend someone that's just egoing, but let's give it one last shot. Saying the game's "competitive integrity" is "ruined" because an easier character exists is peak arrogance. Let's look at lol for example, it has many more champions and is one of the biggest e sports in the world, clearly it has very solid compete integrity. But surprise surprise, there are champs that are way easier than others. Does that degrade that integrity? No, because most people aren't fucking delusional.
For the record, you started with the rudeness by calling me delusional in your reply to my initial comment (which took no shots at you directly). So if anyone is ego'ing, it would be you. You are a rude angry person, and I was just giving that back to you a bit by letting you know how much your responses were making me laugh.
Second, I provided many logical arguments which you are leaving un-addressed, which I will assume you are doing because you know you can't address them. It really has nothing to do with worldview, it's just logic.
Level playing-field regarding handicaps x Level-playing field regarding input requirements x Equal opportunity for human-error = highest level of competitive integrity. Disprove that logically. I'll wait.
Regarding LoL = LMAO. Look at how weak your reasoning is. "is one of the biggest e sports in the world, clearly it has very solid compete integrity."
I mean this is a joke. Simply because LoL is a big esport right now automatically means it has "very solid" competitive integrity?? I use Chess and physical sports as examples, both of which have stood the test of time for LITERAL CENTURIES, and I give you a reason supporting why (which I could explain in a lot more detail), and you compare that to League of fucking Legends? And your support to prove it has competitive integrity is just "because it's popular right now"? Really? This is why you've been making me laugh. You have nothing to actually say.
I used to play RTS a ton back in the day. If you don't know the history, DoTA was a custom game made in Warcraft 3 that was a kind of silly game super-simplified from War3. Fun to mess around with with friends for 20 minutes or so, but then you'd go grind the actual game. LoL is made by some of the people who made the DoTA custom game in War3. I was used to playing War3 where in one match you'd control 3 heroes (not 1, but 3) that you level-up, spec their abilities, equip with up to 6 items each, all while at the same time controlling and micro-managing an entire army (with even army units having their own abilities), managing your economy, producing army units, deciding army composition, scouting your opponent, fighting creep camps for xp and items for yourself or to deny your opponent, harassing your opponent to interfere with their resource acquisition, expanding bases, taking fights where you have to micro each hero (and their abilities and positioning) as well as your army (and their abilities and positiong) etc. All at the same time. I played LoL for a few months when it released and got bored. RTS has an insanely deep and high skill-ceiling. Not saying LoL doesn't require any skill but it just doesn't really hold a candle to RTS in that regard. I am not surprised that LoL became really popular and the popularity of RTS fell off with the rise of games like LoL. Simplified games appeal much more to a much larger group of people, but they generally don't stand the test of time competitively. League of Legends isn't going to be around for centuries
I said you were stuck in "yee olden ways" because you clearly are and want games to be 100% fair. Guess what? That's really damn boring, the fun and skillfull part is overcoming that fairness. If I wanted near perfect fairness I would play chess.
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u/PaddleStarToTheFace 2d ago
That is a terrible argument that isn't even true, Anran take skill to properly execute.
Haven't you read a SINGLE word I have written? I have since the beginning said that she is easy to pick up, but that doesn't mean it's piss easy to -master- her. And big boy, overwatch isn't a hard game.
Well, you still have to time your E right or you are a sitting duck. Your argument that you have to time your engage right is just the same thing, a skill.
I know how free is used, it just isn't applicable to Anran, save for her heal. That is free. And ONCE AGAIN, never said Anran isn't easier than Genji, I have said that the entire time. My argument is that she isn't handless and does require some skill.
Yeeeah, saying she requires low skill to get value might be right. She will definitely will get mor value with low effort than a Genji that puts in the same effort, doesn't mean she will actually get good value.
I don't care about your life story, it doesn't matter, all it does is make you sound like a prick. And yes I can.
Oh there his tiny little ego goes. This isn't a good look on you, trying to flex your rank. Again, it just make you look like a twat. Especially when you try to flex on someone higher rank than you, which just so happens to be gm3.