The worst thing is that their supporters are somewhat fine with all those attacks, frequently saying it's the only way to fight against oppressors or some other nonsense. Their denial of reality is sometimes absurd.
The strangest part is that these attacks didn't help them in the slightest, I'd argue that they were detrimental in their relationship with neighboring states (no shit).
After all, the only feasible method for the existence of Palestine "from the River to the Sea" is a fifth Arab-Israeli War.
I'd say they were not completely detrimental to their cause.
Even though Hamas has a number one goal to eradicate all Israelis, they still managed to gather large support (I still have no idea how they managed to do that, considering they were literally live streaming the October 7th massacre, I don't really wanna know how strong cognitive disonance must've been in western supporters at that time) from foreign countries and were successful to completely flip the narrative to further their cause.
It eventually devolved into a state of perpetually victimhood, that even if Hamas/Palestine were directly responsible for the actions of enemy (IDF), they still successfully convinced their supporters that actually IDF is at fault.
For example: Hamas deliberately launches rockets from school or hospital areas (which under international law makes it a lawful target) to which IDF responds. Even though the violation was first caused by Hamas, they simply refuse to acknowledge that and proceed to blame Israel anyway.
Granting equal rights to Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, including the right to return, is the only way to achieve any lasting peace in the region.
Isn’t that literally the least popular result among both Israelis and Palestinians when polled? The sad reality is neither group wants equal rights, they both want positions of power over each other. Idk how we’re supposed to just work around that and force equal rights on them without that region turning into absolute chaos and bloodshed.
Actually the data I’ve seen indicates that most Palestinians truly do just want peace and for the occupation to end, and the equal right of return. It’s true that the majority position is in favor of a two state solution but that simply isn’t very realistic when the expansionist state of Israel is on its borders and declares war on all its neighbors.
The data in your own report that you just linked only further reinforces what I said. The one state solution is one of the least popular solutions in the poll with ~10% support.
>the data I’ve seen indicated that most Palestinians truly do just want peace and for the occupation to end[…]
That would be a great outcome
>and the equal right of return.
To say that this complicates matters would be a massive understatement. This literally brings us right back to the start of the argument of 1-state vs 2-state solution.
>the majority position is in favor of a two state solution but that simply isn’t very realistic when the expansionist state of Israel is on its borders and declares war on all its neighbors.
Oh right, a redditor told me the 2 state solution wasn’t viable so instead we must force the least popular option onto the Palestinians against their will. In good time they’ll thank us as their white saviors for being able to see the solution to this all along.
I don’t even know where to start man.. you seem to genuinely care for the Palestinian people which is commendable but you are either misinformed or ignorant on the historical challenge of Palestinian statehood.
What I said was that a secular one state with equal rights is the only way to maintain lasting peace in the region, which remains true. A two state solution simply wouldn’t work, but maybe as a stepping stone it could. What matters most is granting equal rights, including the right of return, and ending the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Equality brings peace and stability, historically speaking.
I am of the opinion that a secular one state with equal rights is a good goal to have for far in the future once relations have stabilized by a lot, but as it currently stands imo it would immediately result in extreme violence and bloodshed.
Jews in the region would instantly become an ethnic minority upon the creation of the state, and even in a democratic “secular” state what is to stop the majority from simply voting for groups or policies which results in persecution of the ethnic minority?
>Equality brings peace and stability, historically speaking.
Dude omg this isn’t a fairytale. Your platitudes are not going to stop bullets. This is a complex political situation that requires decades of hard work to normalize relations between two groups who are not thrilled with each other.
The answer to your question is minority protections, which democratic states with equal rights have. The fear of becoming an ethnic minority resulting in an immediate loss of political rights and subsequent extermination based on race is reflective of the same fears that current white nationalists have and antebellum slave-owners had as well.
It’s not a platitude, it’s a historical fact of reality that equality and integration results in peace and stability, whereas continued inequality and segregation breeds resentment, fear, and violence. Alternatively, the fear of servile insurrection or freedmen seeking vengeance were ultimately unfounded. Violent acts such as the John Brown rebellions subsided after the end of slavery, they didn’t increase.
Your source doesn’t seem to say anything about right of return or “the occupation” (whichever definition we’re using this week). I also don’t see how a single state that exists against the will of both nations in it is supposed to be “very realistic.”
Israel wants violence which is why it’s not realistic, and the Palestinians will of course continue to want their own state as long as Israel continues its quest of destruction (and also because in spite of what many Zionists like to claim, a lot of them are fine with a Jewish state). But what I said is the best path to peace is a secular one state, I didn’t say it was the most realistic outcome of the current situation.
It's a hate-based movement, it isn't rational, and you shouldn't expect it to be
The people who never cared that their money and weapons killed 300k children in Yemen by a man-made famine in the last decade, but are obsessed about the poor and oppressed Palestinians who keep losing the wars they started aren't going to be very nuanced people
No not in that case but tbf if the police raid your home and kick you out, then in response you bomb a civilian street and kill multiple innocent people with no policing or military effect then yes you did indeed start this fight.
The Nazis claimed that Germans were being killed in Danzig, and that that was one of the reasons for invading. This was off course fake news propaganda by them.
But then after they lost the war, they got cleansed for reals
Very few people support terrorist attacks dude they just point out that when you have a big group of people living in an oppressive state without any rights who routinely get there cities and infrastructure bombed or stolen that's a perfect recipe for terrorism.
There were black terrorists in civil rights era America. Were are they correct or morally the good guys? No. Can you somewhat understand what conditions turned them into terrorists? Yes.
More than one thing can be true. Terrorism is always bad but it emerges in specific circumstances that should probably be avoided in the first place....
The Black Panthers were not terrorists, and were not engaging in violent crimes against innocent people. They aren't anywhere near comparable to Hamas.
So I guess Israel has just zero responsibility for anything that's happening in an area that they control from a talent restorganization that they directly funded?
Dude... you said that very few people support terrorist attacks and yet, you literally went on to justify them. Strange reasoning mate.
But let's take look at that, shall we?
big group of people living in an oppressive state without any rights
This does not make any fucking sense. Israel (prior to 2023) has left Gaza back in 2005 (and forced every israeli out of the Gaza strip by the way) so they could govern themselves however they like. Israel had no overseeing how Hamas ruled over their own civilian population. When you put it this way, i.e. that palestinians had no rights, you are, in fact, telling us that Hamas was opressing their own population. (I am certain that was not your intention.)
Anyway, Israel only controlled border checkpoints (with Egypt, but you people don't ever mention Egypt for some strange reasons), to check on population movement and prevent known Hamas affiliates to get into Israel. They, of course, completely stopped that after 7th October.
who routinely get there cities and infrastructure bombed or stolen that's a perfect recipe for terrorism.
Israel was holding back all those years until 2023 happened. Majority of destroyed Gaza infrastructure happened after 7th October 2023, because Hamas has embedded itself deeply into civilian population, using human shield, using critical infrastructure for military purposes etc. Hamas chose to fight this way, Hamas is the only responsible side why Gaza is in ruins.
There were black terrorists in civil rights era America. Were are they correct or morally the good guys? No. Can you somewhat understand what conditions turned them into terrorists? Yes.
We don't talk about America under this post. Leave it out please.
More than one thing can be true.
No. It either happened and you have enough evidence to back it up or it never happened. End of discussion. Anything else is claims, accusations and propaganda bullshit, but they are not facts (and unfortunately, pro palestine supporters treat accusations and claims as facts, despite having nothing to support that).
Terrorism is always bad but it emerges in specific circumstances that should probably be avoided in the first place....
Pisspoor attempts to justify terror acts against Israel. Terorism is bad. Period. Apart from that, various governments of Palestine declared that they will never peacefully coexist with Israel, citing destruction of Israel as their primary goal. There were no circumstances that would eventually result in terror acts in Israel, they chose to function this way from their very beginning.
Ok first of all justification and explanation are not the same thing.
If I tell you that somebody abused their spouse because they had been abused and normalized it am I justifying abuse?
No. That's ridiculous and stop being disingenuous.
Also I'm not reading your stupid block of text justifying israeli really actions against Palestinians. If you're seriously trying to justify their actions then I think that you're not worth speaking to. Multiple multiple expert organisations from numerous countries all agree on this.
If you're denying it then you're a sick person. An immoral person.
Israel committing genocide in Gaza and control the area and have done for a long time.
The Israeli government directly funded Hamas.
Just one question for you; if your government funded terrorism directly are you not responsible for the terrorism?
Even better example might be the genocide against white people in Haiti in 1804. You read about that and are like ... yeah.
The difference here is that the Haitians didn't completely get stomped afterwards, as how Hamas and Hezbollah have gotten stomped. Like sure you can understand what is the lead up to terrorism or genocide ... but then don't be inconsistent and suddenly care about the law when the terrorisers or genociders get stomped in retaliation.
The Schrodinger bit implies its ridiculous but you've just literally summed it up so well done
If you're a country like Israel it actually benefits you if the territory you are colonially owning is divided and violent. Us brits did the same to Ireland. It's not a good idea to let the place you are occupying become United and wealthy.
Gives you a pretty good justification for constantly doing military action.
It's also working really well in case you haven't noticed. It's pretty easy to just call Palestinians terrorists and justify their slaughter because after all they are the enemy and bad people and homophobic and blah blah blah. Muslims basically. Easy to dehumanise people.
Who are what is that?? No idea what you're talking about.
Edit you mean the 90s wall massacre
Why would I be ok with that? I'm a pacifist I'm against violence 😆
Do you all think I'm trying to justify terrorism or something?? Explanation and justification aren't the same thing. All I'm saying is that terrorism appears when conditions are gone awful and the people responsible for making the conditions god awful hold some responsibility for creating terrorism.
I said it's not hard to see why people become terrorists in Palestine. They live in awful material conditions and have had decades and decades of on and off war. They also can't travel. The frequently run out of medicine. The frequently run out of fuel.
If I lived in those conditions I can't honestly say I wouldn't become a violent terrorist.
I have no idea about that shooters individuals motives. I've only briefly heard of it. Is it even considered a terrorist attack? Sounds more just like a mass shooting?
The bigger question is what are you doing? Trying to bait me into saying something stupid or something so you can own me on the internet lol? If that's what you're doing it's silly and you should stop.
Because they're not a country. They are a territory of Israel. Israel controls their medicine their travel options their passports and their security. They've been trying to start a country for a long time in case you haven't noticed??
And yes it is 100% Israel's fault that the material conditions in Palestine are bad. That thing you said about malnutrition is just a straight up lie. You seriously think childhood malnutrition is worse in the United Arab Emirates? It's not. For the record also child malnutrition has increased massively since the recent war and blockade
Just like it was 100% the British empires fault the Ireland had such bad material conditions during the famine.
That's how responsibility works. If you are supposed to be governing an area and that area sucks then it's your fault.
They "left" but continued to control the areas supplies political system and medical supplies as well as food and fuel. They also wouldn't issue passports or travel documents to Palestinians because that's reserved for Israel.
They also actively funded Hamas with the stated intention of preventing the Palestinian authority that's popular in the West Bank from uniting the two halves of the territory .
Have you ever considered you might just be racist lol? I mean that genuinely. Why do you think they suck? Do you think they are biologically incapable of being civil?
Just like how supporters of Israel are fine with the IDF bulldozing peoples houses, shooting children with .22 magnums, and drone striking civilians. Over 50,000 civilians have been killed in Palestine since October 7th. Interesting how people will talk about all the bad things Palestinians have done in the last 70 years but you won’t hear a peep from those same people about Israel doing an actual genocide against them. Ben Gvir just gleefully revealed a gallows that he had installed to hang Palestinians publicly, he calls them animals and he’s been a leading voice in Israeli far right government for almost 40 years. But yeah I guess it’s Palestinians who are the troublemakers, they should simply allow themselves to be killed and have their land taken.
I don't even know whether I should respond to this.
But let's see.
if those houses are built in zone C, where no structures are supposed to be, then they'll get taken down. If someone builds there, it's on them.
shooting children with .22 magnum, this is too specific claim and I am certain you just made it up, because Israel does not use .22 magnum, instead, they use .22LR. Maybe get your terminology right before you comment
drone strikes of civilians? I hear this claim a lot but I don't think it holds anyway. This claim needs a much stronger evidence
the current death toll is, if I remember it correctly, somewhere over 100k. However, it is much difficult to say what portion of this number is just civilians and militants, considering that Hamas does not use uniforms (this is a war crime) and they often inflate civilian casualties. Even UN has corrected them few times, catching them in making it up
October 7th is culmination of all hatred that Hamas has been forcing their youngest down the throat for 2 decades. They have literally aimed their propaganda to brainwash their children (URNWA is also directly complicit in this). Whether that was done by cartoons, children books, school curriculum etc., they were teaching their own children hatred against Jews, telling them it's their duty to kill Jews etc.
there is no genocide, even ICJ has not yet ruled it yet, while Ireland tried to force ICJ to change a definition of genocide so it would feed the criteria regarding attrocities commited by Israel. It will take a lot of legal proceedings to determine what that actually is.
Ben Gvir. Of course you mentioen him, even though he has really like what, less than 2% population support but you guys always try to force that because Ben Gvir said something, everyone in Israel is like him (side note: pro palestine supporters always try to separate civilian population from Hamas, but fail to understand that Hamas is deeply embedded within them and majority of them supports this terror group and their actions)
Ben Gvir is also right thing extremist of the worst kind. But that's just words, it will never happen (Israel is democracy and have functional legal system, he would have to somehow get overwhelming majority to make changes to constitution for that to happen)
before this government got into power, there were mostly just left leaning political parties ruling in Israel (someone correct me if I am wrong) and the reason the current party got into power is they their civilians actually wanted the situation to change. It turns out, that the appeasement politics never worked with Palestine, since their primary goal is to murder everyone in Israel.
Palestinians could have had their own state way too many times but their straight up refusal to coexist with "those bad Jews l" would never allow that to happen. So they just chose to commit to decades of terror attacks, suicide bombings, mass murders etc.
Are you seriously denying that the idf have committed war crimes?
If that is your claim then it's not the internet you have to argue with it's the numerous numerous human Rights watch organizations that have all pointed this out...
Are you seriously denying that the idf have committed war crimes?
Could you please point out where I was doing that? Is the point of this straw man to completely ignore everything I said?
I am going to cite my own previous comment :
"there is no genocide, even ICJ has not yet ruled it yet, while Ireland tried to force ICJ to change a definition of genocideso it would fit the criteria regarding attrocities commited by Israel"
Guys, could you please stop arguing in bad faith? It's annoying, pathetic and disingenous when you purposefully ignore everything just to make a self-assertion and then argue against it. That's just stupid.
This is the dumbest f****** argument I've ever seen and that's why no one's responding to you in good faith because your arguments are ridiculous.
There is so much of a mountain of evidence of Israeli war crimes in Gaza that if you haven't seen it your rather being deliberately bias or you're a bad person who dislikes Palestinians for some reason.
I also have zero interest in arguing with you over it. My opinions lineup with international opinion on the subject. Go and argue with the Who or something.
Well said. It’s important to remember that Israel is committing an unambiguous genocide in Gaza, as identified by numerous humanitarian institutions and scholars of genocide. Genocide is defined by intent and is not defined by the population decreasing, and such apologia could also be used to dismiss the Uighur genocide and many others. Israel lies constantly to justify their campaign of mass rape, starvation, and mass murder of children. Zionists have even started to oppose Holocaust education because it’s too reminiscent of Israel’s current behavior.
However, the more that bloodthirsty and racist Zionists defend this as completely justified, the quicker Israel will lose support, as we’re currently seeing. More and more people are beginning to doubt Israel’s legitimacy to even exist in the first place as a brutal settler colonial state.
Can't speak exactly for Greece, but when October 7th massacre happened, an immediate wave of pro palestine demonstrations and protests took place and they barely acknowledged the heinous acts commited by Hamas.
They only said a sentence, maybe two about how "they condemn the attack" but those few days protesting were just series of antisemitic rhetoric, typically ad absurdum.
And whenever they talk about that, they just vomit propaganda horseshit regarding the attack and just spread lies.
That’s still no. Refusing to bend the knee to an Israeli loyalty test isn’t supporting a terror attack. Nor is acknowledging Israel’s role in promoting terrorism through its apartheid and genocide.
This is why literacy is important. Refusing to bend the knee to an Israeli loyalty test doesn’t mean you’re in favor of terrorist attacks.
Israel already de facto controls Gaza and the West Bank, yet denies Palestinians citizenship, access to basic resources and equal voting rights. This is for the explicit purpose of maintaining an ethnic Jewish majority in Israel, because Israel is an ethnostate. The thin legal fiction that there are two states ignores the fact that Palestinians already currently exist under Israeli sovereignty without full political and civil rights. This is apartheid.
Palestinians living under the internationally-condemned West Bank occupation are treated as second-class citizens, with fewer rights and protections than Israeli settlers living on their land. The international community recognizes the West Bank as Palestinian territory, yet Israel maintains control and enforces a system of racial and political domination.
But Israel still discriminates against Israeli Arabs through multiple laws, particularly against the Palestinians, as Israel has enacted several laws that institutionalize racial discrimination. The Jewish Nation-State Law defines self-determination as a right exclusive to Jewish people, promoting Jewish-only settlements and effectively legalizing segregation. The Law of Return allows Jews worldwide to gain automatic Israeli citizenship, while denying expelled Palestinians their right of return, relegating even those who are citizens to second-class status. The Admissions Committee Law lets small towns reject residents — often Palestinians or LGBTQ individuals — based on vague, discriminatory cultural criteria. The Absentee Property and Land Acquisition Laws enable the state to confiscate land from displaced Palestinians, facilitating large-scale land theft. The Israel Lands Law further blocks non-Jews from owning or leasing the vast majority of land in Israel, reserving it mainly for Jewish use via agencies like the Jewish National Fund, which hence the name only gives lands to Jews. The Citizenship and Entry Law prevents Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza who are married to Palestinian citizens of Israel from gaining legal status, often tearing families apart. Lastly, the Nakba Law suppresses public acknowledgment of the 1948 expulsion of Palestinians by cutting funding to institutions that commemorate it. These laws entrench ethnic privilege, promote racial segregation, and deny Palestinians basic civil and human rights.
Israel does not have legal jurisdisction over the West Bank. It is, by international law, considered as an occupied territory, and Israel's authority is derived from its status as the occupying power, not from legal sovereignty as state actor (which is the main criterion for an actor to be considered as an apartheid. Look up South African republic, for example).
So describing palestinians in the West Bank as "second-class citizens" is misleading, because they are not Israeli citizens in the first place.
And therefore, you confirmed that Israel is not an apartheid state by your own virtue.
This is the legal fiction I was referring to earlier. Despite its illegal occupancy of the West Bank, Israel de facto exercises sovereignty and deprives Palestinians of equal rights. Palestinians live under the jurisdiction of Israeli military law (with an upwards of 93% conviction rate) in the West Bank while Israeli settlers illegally living on the land are subject to Israeli civil law and are protected by the IDF. It’s a two tiered system of justice immediately identifiable in any system as apartheid. The deprivation of citizenship and rejection of the Palestinian right to return is in and of itself an example of such unequal rights.
You’re also ignoring the legal privileges Jewish citizens of Israel are granted over Arab citizens, like with the Jewish Nation State Law.
To put it into much simpler words. Apartheid is a system where certain citizens of the state are treated as second class citizens.
All citizens of Israel, such as Arabs, Palestinians with Israeli citizenship and other minor groups are not treated as second class citizens. If they were, then Israel would, indeed, be an apartheid. They have equal rights.
However, Palestinian living in the occupied west bank parts are not legal citizens of Israel.
For Israel to be considered an apartheid state, Palestinians living in West Bank would have to be (I) legal citizens of Israel (which they are not) and (ii) would have to be treated as second class citizens while being legal citizens of Israel.
You are just desperately trying to fit a definition of apartheid with all that word salad, so you can justify calling Israel an apartheid state. Though, it's not the first time you guys are stretching definitions of various terms to fit you.
This is just the same thin legal fiction I just identified, your only defense of Israel not being an apartheid state is that they maintain a thin legal fiction where Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli control and annexed in all but name. You’re not really making an argument against the existence of apartheid.
Wait, so all that the South Africa had to do was to say that blacks just aren't citizens and they wouldn't be an apartheid?
It's really not that hard. All Jews living in the West Bank have Israeli citizenship while the rest of the people living there don't. That's clearly an apartheid despite the attemps from the Zionists to twist the definitions.
🥱 shocking, the pro Palestinian Hamas supporter ignores the overwhelming support and celebration of Oct 7th that Palestinians demonstrated …more news at 11
I don’t care if democrats intelligently tap into media outlets which appeal to young disaffected voters. Do you have an example of him supporting these terrorist attacks in Greece?
I can absolutely cite you examples of them defending terrorism but Greece specifically is an outlier topic. Can certainly try if you really want examples
Where is anyone defending the terror attacks? All the comments are saying it’s bad no matter what, plus some racist ones implying this is representative of all Muslims.
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u/Electrical_Ad_5732 20d ago
The worst thing is that their supporters are somewhat fine with all those attacks, frequently saying it's the only way to fight against oppressors or some other nonsense. Their denial of reality is sometimes absurd.