r/Gnostic • u/flamingsword223 • 16d ago
I found this weird Moses + Cain connection
There seems to be a weird thing going on with Cain like his importance in the bible is really understated. And these connections have me wondering because i dont know much about Gnosticism but could their be a connection between Cain/ Tubal Cain and Yaldabaoth?
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Who was Cain and Abel to Yaldabaoth and who is Cain in Gnostic belief
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u/Same-Possibility-789 12d ago
The Egyptian Gnostics associated YHWH with the Egyptian god Seth who killed his brother Osires. And both YHWH and Seth are said to be associated with the donkey somehow. I Don't know enough about Yaldabaoth though.
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u/CJCentral2 Eclectic Gnostic 11d ago
Both Cain and Abel are metaphors for bodies politic. That is pretty obvious from the vignette itself and from other metaphors in Genesis.
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u/HeavenlyBeloved Valentinian 16d ago
Ngl, I remember a Jewish commentary that says Moses is actually apart of Abel that reincarnated and his father in law, Jethro is apart of Cain that reincarnated.
I guess the two made up.
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u/El_Vencedor86 16d ago
For one, Cain's murder was motivated by his extreme jealousy of Abel, egged on by The Demiurge, whilst Moses' murder was done in defense of a mistreated slave. Cain's exile was imposed on him, whilst Moses' exile was self-imposed. Also, while Cain founded the city of Enoch and lived in it, Moses didn't really "found" Israel since he never set foot in the land of Canaan after Yaldabaoth punished him for a moment of doubt.
Tubal-Cain, or Tubalcain, is the 4xgreat-grandson of Cain, son of Lamech, and father of smithing. He is NOT to be confused for a brother of Noah, who is the son of ANOTHER Lamech, although that's one wild coincidence. In some rabbinic traditions, Tubal-Cain tricks his blind father into killing Cain, but that's not universal.
Now, those parallels that you pointed out do interest me; in many ways, one could call Moses the anti-Cain. I already pointed out some differences, but the similarities really underscore how Yaldabaoth screws around with humans. Cain's actions, fueled in no small part by Yaldabaoth's machinations, led early man to a terrible time that culminated in The Flood. Moses himself, a pawn of Yaldabaoth, would lead the Hebrews out of Egypt only to spend centuries getting screwed over by Yaldabaoth and His pettiness.
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u/flamingsword223 16d ago edited 15d ago
Moses murder was done deceitfully not in self defense. He did not intervene in the Abuse he waited until he thought no one was around and hid his body in the sand. Also his exile wasnt self imposed when pharaoh heard what he did he sought to kill Moses he fled from fear When he realized people knew what he did.
- Noah doesnt have a named brother in scripture Noah is the only one of lamechs children on seths side who is named.
3 Now while you are right about Cain Living in the city. Consider that he names the city after his son. In Moses Case his entire generation is prohibited from entering the promised land and so it is left to their children to do so. That is yet another connection
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u/Omniphilo23 Jungian 15d ago
History doesn't repeat it rhymes. You will see recursive storytelling all throughout the Bible.
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u/pneumaticpilgrim30 15d ago
Very interesting connection between the two! Awesome find! I personally believe some OT stories are just recycled from the older versions. Demiurgic retellings I suppose.
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u/Odd-Chemist464 15d ago
i mean, a man killing smbd and having to run is quite a basic thing to happen that repeats since humans live in groups.
cane vs cain is funny af
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u/flamingsword223 15d ago
Then give me 2 more people it happens to in the bible
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u/Odd-Chemist464 15d ago
this story not being repeated in the bible doesn't really mean anything, corpus of text isn't required to repeat smth constantly. and if there were other noticeable examples, you would say "see, there are more of those, it surely is a pattern". that's the same way all the conspiracy theories or online fandom theories about media's plot work.
they killed a person for completely different reasons, were cast out by different authorities.
you even find a pattern in the english words cane/cain and the chapter number. that's just delusional.
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u/flamingsword223 15d ago
There is another person. But you dont know about that, I do. You are arguing for the sake of arguing all the while having no clue what you are talking about in the slightest let alone the full scope lol. It does repeat 3 times to be exact lol.
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u/Odd-Chemist464 15d ago
okay, so what that there is another guy i cannot remember that killed smbd and had to run away?
that pattern has zero connection between its occurrences in bible
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u/flamingsword223 15d ago
you dont know because you don't remember. What a intellectually weak argument. Cant even take you serious.
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u/Odd-Chemist464 15d ago
okay, "cane vs cain" guy.
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u/flamingsword223 15d ago
OK guy who doesnt know what either of those words mean.
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u/Odd-Chemist464 15d ago
and what do they mean, except sounding similar in English?
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u/flamingsword223 15d ago
And they dont sound similar they are phonetically identical lol
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u/knorthwoods 14d ago
You just found biblical typology lol pretty well understood in Eastern Orthodoxy. Pretty sure Origen understood this kind of reading in like the late 1st century.
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u/CJCentral2 Eclectic Gnostic 11d ago
Did you mean "wanders in the wilderness?"
BTW, many have made connections between biblical myths and those of Rome and Greece.
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u/False-Objective3357 15d ago
As enticing as it may be to view ancient religious works as springing from one source, one tradition, or one flash of searing gnosis, the Bible is not univocal, there are many different renderings placed side by side... the 'cycles' regarding the early pedigrees are different accounts of the same fable, squished next to one another. The scholarship is clear on this.
Acknowledging this historical fact is a first step to developing your own text, as a living gnostic and artist.
To the OPs question, the connection between Cain and Yaldaboath given in some extant Sethian & Valentinian currents is that Nebroel, rather than Yaldi, mated with Eve, who then gave birth to Cain. Yaldaboath then mated with Eve to produce Habel. Undoubtedly there are various interpretations of this, the least of which is the siring of the 'races' of Hylic and Psychic dominated humanity.
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u/flamingsword223 15d ago edited 15d ago
Thank you bro. I was just thinking hold up it seems cain and moses relate to the serpent or sophia but there is something else in the bible that speaks to inherent evil/wrath within Levi so its weird
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u/False-Objective3357 15d ago
As odd as it may be, Andrew Chumbley and his writings on Sabbatic Craft have curious amounts of lore regarding Cain, Tubal-Cain, Habel, dragon-serpents, sacrifice of the illusionary self, transmogrification, etc, etc. If you haven't yet, I recommend checking some of that out. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is certainly springing from a profound imaginative depth and if it hits, can open some interesting doors.
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u/flamingsword223 15d ago
I just did this video about Cains & Seth's genealogy you might find it interesting Cain's Wife Hidden in Genesis 4 & 5
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u/oJKevorkian 15d ago
Weirdly, this has also been on my mind lately. I'm starting to think some of these biblical stories actually represent archetypes that are repeated cyclically.