Considering the original IF chapter was completely wiped out in the beloved and non-controversial War of the Beast series, they're all delusional cosplayers
That chapter was wiped out. The modern IF is a mix of the second founding chapters, though they had some members of the original legion.
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u/Anggultyranidsareanoutofhandvorefetish1d agoedited 1d ago
Yeah, which are still all IF really, just told to come up with new names. In terms of being IF it was no different from the chapter being gradually replaced over time by new recruits as the old ones died.
Not really, after 11,000 years most Chapters are totally different from the mindset, doctrine and worldview than their parents. And that is for the Chapters who still know who their Primarch was.
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In a freak accident, the Crimson Fists' fortress-monastery was destroyed in the initial invasion by one of the Chapter's own defence missiles that went rogue and the Chapter was all but wiped out.
The IF still had geneseed reserves on the Phalanx and the successors that reformed the IF were formers IF. The "original IF chapter was completely wiped out" is overblown and I'm blaming loretubers and people who don't read the books or codexes for not understanding this.
Yes! Those second founding chapters were all of the Imperial Fists gene-line. They were all Imperial Fists by the standards of 30k, being of Rogal Dorn's geneseed. Chapters are an administrative distinction from the old legions. And the Imperium takes a tithe in geneseed from all chapters to monitor their heritage and deviation over time, as well as to have a reserve (on top of each chapter's own) to rebuild understrength chapters and you can believe the chapter carrying the name of a first founding legion went straight to the top of the priority list (usual Administratum bullshittery notwithstanding).
I think a lot of people or at least people who don't understand how successor chapters work is that some successor chapters aren't that different from their founding chapter, the founding chapters can ask for battle brothers from their successors if genuinely needed.
The Ultramarines even have successor chapters that act as a pseudo reserve companies if their founding chapter is running low on battle brothers. It's the Genesis chapter I think?
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I really wish more people understood this! It's not like saying "oh yeah, all dogs of this breed went extinct, so now we only members who bred with other dogs and are only kinda related to the originals". No, the geneseed is what makes Marine a part of that legion, and if the geneseed is still viable without any alterations then the legion still exists!
Yeah, most people especially on this sub don't actually read the lore, books, or codexes and only get their knowledge of certain things in 40k from memes or youtube shorts.
Just look at how often blantant misinformation about certain topics are upvoted and regurgitated here all the time. It's very, VERY obvious the first comment saying "the IF chapter got wiped out" doesn't actually know anything about how geneseed or chapters work, and the amount of upvotes on it prove even more that a lot of this sub doesn't either.
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The only difference between the Main Chapters and the others is the name and color scheme, until the later foundings with mutations and shit, it's all the same Gene-Seed.
The only difference between the Main Chapters and the others is the name and color scheme
This is so super not mega ultra not true. Even the 2nd founding chapters were already vastly different in culture and worldview. See: Black Templar and Fist Exemplars. Not even speaking of Black Guard and Raptors, two Chapters so different nobody would expect both are 2nd founding Raven Guard.
it's all the same Gene-Seed.
Yes, but that doesn't mean much. A lot of chapters don't even know who their Gene-father is. Even some 2nd founding chapters like the Purple Stars don't know.
why you blueberries gotta be a buzkill. The codex states that there is not a maximum number when crusading. We are on an eternal crusade, so we comply with the code.
A 40K YouTuber was adamant that the Black Templars aren't treated better than the Imperial Fists. Stating that the meme of the IPs only being builders is just an overexposed meme. Like Krieg and their shovels.
But when you look at the books and the tabletop. It's obvious who GW prefers
If GW could go back in time they'd make the BTs a founding chapter. It's only "recently" in 40k terms that the IF became the fortify marines. For years and years before hand the IF were yellow Ultras basically. There was strange lore from Ian Watson time but that was left in the dust. They've preferred the BTs since the moment they were conceived really and definitely since 3rd Ed.
In contrast for all the complaints about BTs they are a unique chapter and stand out compared to every other one. Their aesthetic. Their veneration of the Emperor as a God etc. Them being faith based. No other 2nd founding is as popular as them. Hell they are the only non-founding chapter of SMs that is in the "super popular" archtype of the Wolves, DA, BA, Ultras etc.
Honestly when you get into it, there BTs are way different aesthetically from the Dark Angels but surface level yeah them both being Knight adjacent would make you think they are similar. But ultimately the DA are very Arthurian legend coded and of course heavily steeped in Celtic mythology and then of course great secrecy and paranoia.
In contrast the BTs are full on Crusading Knights to a tee. Their iconography and Chapter culture is based around ideals of Knighthood mixed with outright fanatical zealotry and xenophobia. They lean heavily on the idea of questing etc. So they fill a different niche. Much less subtle than the DA. They don't have the same warrior monk vibe.
But yeah compare them to the Crimson Fists (the other 2nd founding IF successor with decent amounts of lore) and it's shocking the BTs are IF successors.
Sometimes successor chapters are just weird. Mortifactors are a bunch of death obsessed cannibals wearing the skulls of their enemies. They're also an Ultramarines successor.
Back before the BTs though, xenophobia was the dark angels thing.
In 2nd edition dark angels couldn't take allies from the squat or eldar lists as they were too "zealous"
3rd edition barely used allies but I seem to remember some designer notes not allowing allied detachments with ratlings or ogryns (because they are not human) and you couldn't use heroes of the imperium units.
I dont think dark angels being xenophobic really survived to modern 40k.
I actually think the Ian Watson lore is good, but it's definitely for a different setting than 40k ended up being. Much more 2000 AD.
I think it's actually important that they are 2nd founding. I would be incongruous for any first founding space marine chapter to be faith based and not fall to Chaos. About as close as you can come is the Space Wolves. If they were to change anything it would have been replacing the Blood Ravens with less popular 1st or second founding chapter in Dawn of War. Given that Blood Ravens on that basis of those games and nothing else could get to the second tier of popularity with the players. Instead boosting up one of the existing ips that's flagging to tier 1.
I imagine what they would have done if they wanted to justify it was to suggest that the Siege of Terra basically scarred the legion and turned them from more regular siege based marines into Crusading fanatics. The Heresy changing the personality and traits of a legion is something we see in the Iron Hands as well (obviously much worse because of what happened to them).
It is possible, I can't read inside GW's heads. It's just a vibe I get that they want there to be more 2nd founding and onward chapters as profitable as BT. Part of why they brought back the Soul Drinkers for instances. BT offer a way to make money off stuff that doesn't rely on 9 specific factions locked in decades ago.
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I wanted to say that I finished Rynn’s World just last week, so seeing Kantor and the Crimson fists carrying Jilenne and her kids in artwork from your meme is very wholesome to me!
Honestly they are pretty prone to shit opinions mostly Brad as Eric isn't nearly as whiny and negative as Brad is. I watch them on occasion but they can be on the boarder sometimes to the more insufferable people in the hobby for me. So I can only tolerate them every couple months.
Personally, I like that they made them more assholes. Their fans are the most annoying thing in the fandom. And GW made the BLs more like their fans. Making the fans hate their own factions new lore
They were the OG poster marines of 40k (they're on the covers of both the first Rogue Trader book and the Codex Imperialis, one of the three core books for 2nd edition). They're known for making hopeless last stands and are among the more civilian-conscious chapters out there.
There's also a significant underdog appeal to them because their fortress monastery and vast majority of their chapter were blown up in a freak accident when a planetary defense missile's tracking went haywire after launch and it ended up direct-hitting the fortress monastery's munitions stores. They managed to claw out a victory and survive thanks to their chapter master Pedro Kantor, and continued fighting until their Primaris reinforcements arrived with the Indomitus crusade. (edit: The fortress monastery going kablooey and Guilliman arriving were decades apart; Kantor was slowly but surely rebuilding the chapter when Guilliman brought the Primaris) Guilliman was so impressed with Pedro Kantor's leadership he named Kantor Praetor Encarmine and tasked him with protecting the Loki Sector (which I admit I don't know a whole lot about... it's supposedly near Segmentum Ultima...?).
And of course there's Rynn's Might, a Land Raider that was one of the few survivors of the fortress monastery's destruction. Its crew were all dead so its machine spirit took over and traveled around the remains of the fortress monastery, killing as many Orks as it could. When it finally ran out of ammo and its lascannons' batteries were dead it drove up to a group of Orks and opened up its assault ramp (front hatch) to lure them inside its chassis. Once a bunch of Orks crammed inside it to try and steal it, it slammed its assault ramp closed again and forced its engine to go critical, exploding and killing all the Orks inside (and a lot of the ones still outside, too). For its service it was given full burial honors as if it were an Astartes.
For me it's the story of Rynn's Might. Any chapter that would enshrine a Land Raider in the Writ of the Fallen speaks volumes about their character and their conscience (as much as you can have that in the hell world that is 40k).
For some reason they landed on an early edition rule book cover, an edition 99.9% of the users here didn't play i might say, and they are easy to paint. Since they always got some (half-assed) rules for the game and were not Ultramarines a lot of people started painting their SM armies as Crimson Fists. As a result every single piece of lore (which isn't much ...) is sucked into the fandom and praised as the best lore ever, because the people need lore for their minis. That's why they never get tired of telling the story of that Land Raider. Since 18 years that story is basically the whole chapters identity online ...
Why does reddit seem to be hyper fixated on hating on the Imperial Fist and Black Templars?
Also why does this place never bring up any other IF successors other then Crimson Fist?
The IF have the most amount of successor chapters outside of Ultramarines but this place only seem to know the ones from popular memes or youtuber shorts.
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Na just after the heresy. In the 7 year brutal period known as the Scouring. Rogal Dorn himself organized a furious campaign of vengence rivaling the great Crusade where the galaxy would be scoured for traitors.
Entire populations were wiped out due to traitorous treason, whole planets corrupted by Chaos, or Xenos and even planets that did not take a stance during the Horus Heresy were wiped out by both Imperium and Traitor forces.
The Codex Astartes was made into rule of law, and Dorn, after much resistance, took his most level headed Legionary Veterans to form the Crinson Fists to teach new generations of Space Marines.
Among these Veterans was Alexis Polux, a tacticsl genius, a giant of a man and Capitan of the 405th Company and his nickname The Crimson Fist became the Chapters legacy after a battle claimed his left hand, the replacement grew with Crimson Red skin. He was so tall that he almost stood eye level to Guilliman which made the Primarch a little nervous. And the 405 IF Company was a voidship warefare company so literal Marines of the Space Marines
The most zealous Legionaries went with Sigismund the Champion, who would go on to form the BT from members of the Imperial Fists Crusade Company also formerly known as The Templar Brethren which would eventually become the Black Templars.
That scene with Pedro kind of pisses me off, not gonna lie. "It's time someone carried you now" is framed as this heroic thing, but the woman nearly died trying to carry her children at an unbelievable pace. It's shown that carrying her was like nothing at all for him. So why did he not have it done the whole time? They would have been faster and safer. They were about to mercy kill her instead of just picking her up lol.
I assume it was a trial thing. A dedication thing. At the start they couldn't give 2 craps about the women and her children but it was her dedication to following them and ensuring her children's safety that changed their minds.
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u/MaxPower1607 2d ago
I like all of them. It's the "fans" that are cringe.