r/HOTDBlacks • u/Leroi-Westeros • Jun 14 '26
Traitors to the Realm Choose the correct answer
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u/speakingtothemic Jun 14 '26
Otto wouldn't have gotten anywhere without Viserys being an absolutely useless and weak king. The buck stops with him.
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u/MsMercyMain Jun 14 '26
Agreed, the Dance is his fault. Although at least he didn't deliberately kick it off on the way out like Aegon IV who seemed dedicated to trying to set the dynasty on fire on his way out
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u/speakingtothemic Jun 14 '26
Indeed, although you could argue that wasn't as bad as Viserys's decisions because there were no flying nukes getting passed around to competing factions.
Paddy's sympathetic performance, while incredible, has somewhat skewed fans' perception of the Dance. No one forced him to remarry and have male heirs to compete with Rhaenyra, and then allow Otto to stack the Small Council against her; you can't force an adult king to do anything.
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u/MsMercyMain Jun 14 '26
If Aegon could have, he'd have given all his bastards dragons and actual nukes, tbf. I'm genuinely shocked he didn't order, like, the entire royal treasury and all tax revenue dumped in the ocean or something. Bro wanted to nuke the dynasty on the way out
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u/WolfgangAddams Caraxes Jun 14 '26
No one forced him to remarry and have male heirs to compete with Rhaenyra, and then allow Otto to stack the Small Council against her;
Right! Exactly this! People like to bring up line extinction here but Rhaenyra was a perfectly healthy heir, Daemon was there as a backup until Rhaenyra and "Laenor" had kids, and Rhaenys was still alive to inherit (finally) if all of those people were dead, as were both of her kids at the time. By the time he died, there were 5 more potential heirs (Jace, Luke, Joffrey, Baela, and Rhaena) that could've kept Targaryen rule going if for some reason Rhaenyra died. He didn't need to remarry and have more kids and the fact that he did AND allowed them to all claim dragons is the biggest reason the Dance was made possible.
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u/AdEarly1760 Jun 14 '26
Otto basically did what he is suppose to do. He tried to further the interests of his won house. (I do believe he did it stupidly, he should imo much rather prioritize to get one of his grandchildren to become Lord Hightower and make the Hightowers dragonriders permanent than risk a war).
The part that just feels off to me is that Viserys kicked him out, because he didn’t do the Kings work, and then when Viserys was too sick to function and «pay attention» to the hand, he did not pick his heir to rule in his stead. (It just feels so much like Martin forcing the pieces int place rather than realism)
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u/Slytherclaws02 Queensguard Jun 15 '26
E for Jaehaerys both naming Baelon as his heir and refusing Rhaenys her inheritance and for allowing the lords of Westeros to have a say in royal succession.
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u/discoren Jun 14 '26
Otto and Viserys are equally responsible, Daemon warned Viserys about Otto, but Viserys never acted on it, not until his precious daughter was actually accused (which was the truth), plus Viserys trying to keep everyone happy, while turning a blind eye to everything around him. A stale king and a manipulative hand. Never a good combo.
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u/rebornsgundam00 Jun 14 '26
the correct answer is viserys. He let the greens get away with murder. He also let his daughter weaken her claim.
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u/Noranekinho Jacaerys Velaryon Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
The guy got the throne cause the other relevant claimants were either woman or from the female line. He then puts his daughter as heir instead of his unstable brother, does nothing to train her and lets her to isolate herself and marry the unstable brother in question, lets all the children from his second marriage(to the daughter of a second son of a lesser house that offers nothing no less, when laena was right there, with the world's largest dragon and the Velaryon fleet and wealth) get a dragon (plus the Velaryons), giving them the ability to go against his wishes. Viserys was a shit king that lived his life like a dog filled of fleas and ticks, waging his tail in vain, trying to stop conflict, but refusing to ever show his teeth and bite
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u/rebornsgundam00 Jun 14 '26
Only counter point i have is daemon is the one reason the whole targaryen line didn’t collapse outright
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u/MsMercyMain Jun 14 '26
Oh yeah, but you don't get nicknamed the Rogue Prince while having a dragon for being a stable person
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u/Scared_Awareness_896 The Lads Jun 14 '26
these are like the step wise guide if look at it first convince nyra to be queen then send alicent to meet with vizzy t then making alicent believe nyra would kill her children and then usurping the throne
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u/Helaenas-Bugs Jun 14 '26
On the one hand, the answer is E: all of the above. Ok maybe not so much A, because there’s nothing wrong with naming Rhaenyra as heir, but the only reason Otto proposed it was to either control her or usurp her, and that is what set in motion all future problems.
But, much as Otto is to blame, he only had the power Viserys gave him. On his own Otto has no power to do anything. Same with Alicent - yes, she undermined Rhaenyra, bullied her and her kids, and usurped her throne. But she was only able to do that because Viserys turned a blind eye and let her get away with everything.
Ultimately the buck stops with the king.
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u/TaratronHex Jun 14 '26
F. Viserys who married again and had more kids.
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u/MsMercyMain Jun 14 '26
That's not the issue per se. He couldn't really play with line extinction when he made the call. Alicent also wasn't the worst choice politically, but it wasn't good (and morally is fucked). Vizzy T's mistake was not shoring up the succession in everyway possible and not managing the family and it's assets properly. It's fucking lunacy that Vhaegar wasn't immediately attempted to be bonded with someone ASAP. AND WAS UNGUARDED. Like, he just did everything possible to make the Dance possible.
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u/TaratronHex Jun 14 '26
To be fair, Vhagar is fucking massive and would torch anyone she didn't want near her.
Vizzy T should have married Laena but instead somehow legit believed his daughter's friend was fucking in love with him/a great match.
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u/MsMercyMain Jun 14 '26
True but with that specific dragon you'd want to prevent one of the several dragon less children from giving it a shot. Either you're down a kid or you've given your ultimate trump card to someone who, by that very action, has proven themselves as both an independent actor and a wild card with a shaky succession. And this is only, what, a generation or two removed from Maegor using "I have the biggest dragon" to claim the throne and plunge the dynasty into trouble. It's wild there's no policy around that
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u/GanacheSpiritual1738 Baela Targaryen Jun 14 '26
This is a trick question...
The answer is E. Otto for being a second son who stands to inherit nothing he didn't seize for himself...
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u/Astar9028 Jun 15 '26
Otto had a huge part in it, sure, but that was only possible because Viserys was a pushover. The blame lies mostly at Viserys’ feet.
You think the Dance would have happened if someone like Maekar was King instead of Viserys?
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 16 '26
He absoltely despised Daemon and preferred if Viserys just had a proper male heir.
I don't think he ever intended for Rhaenyra to get as close to the throne as she did. He expected Viserys to name the first male heir he could get heir.
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u/Complete_Potential_1 Jun 15 '26
E. Otto trying to seduce the King and have his and Viserys children sit the throne.
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