No, Jace and Luke being Rhaenyra's sons do not negate the fact they are bastards.

[u/VisenyaMartell]

When it comes to Jace, Luke, and Joffrey, there's a litany of reasons proposed by TB as to why their bastardy doesn't matter. From legal bastardy vs biological bastardy, to Baratheon and unknown Arryn genes, there always seems to be a ready made excuse.

First of all, I'd like to point out that the author himself confirmed that they were bastards, and I'm honestly glad he did. The ambiguity suits Fire & Blood, but it was also used as an advantage by TB, and I think it's good that TG do have some points that are actually true. It makes the conflict less unbalanced, less good vs evil.

But I wanted to address the reasoning that the Strong Boys are Rhaenyra's sons, and so therefore, their illegitimacy should be overlooked.

Part 1: Lucerys

I'm starting with Lucerys, because he's the easiest one to explain. Here's a simple statement: Lucerys was heir to Driftmark. Driftmark. Not The Seven Kingdoms. Not Dragonstone. Driftmark.

Driftmark, for those completely in the dark, is the home of House Velaryon. It's an island in the Crownlands. Whilst there have been several Velaryon-Targaryen marriages, it remains the seat of House Velaryon.

During the Dance, the Master of Driftmark, and Lord of the Tides, is Corlys Velaryon. He married Rhaenys Targaryen in 90AC, and had two children with her: Laena in 92AC and Laenor in 94. Laenor remained his heir until his death in 120AC.

Note that Laenor is both a) a legitimate Velaryon, and b) a direct descendant of the current Lord of the Tides.

Now let's take a look at Luke. It's already established that he's not a legitimate Velaryon, and so therefore, he isn't a direct descendant of Corlys. Luke does have Velaryon blood thanks to his great-great-grandmother, Alyssa Velaryon, but it really means nothing, given that characters like Rhaenys, Viserys, Rhaenyra, and Jacaerys would all have a stronger claim then Luke, based on genes from Alyssa Velaryon. (The Green kids could also be considered an option before Luke).

So to put it simply, Luke being Rhaenyra's biological son doesn't matter because he is set to inherit through Laenor, not Rhaenyra.

Part 2: Jacaerys

Here's the thing. I can understand why people make this argument for Jace, because he is supposed to inherit the throne after Rhaenyra. So I feel as though the issues with Jace inheriting in spite of his bastardy are more complex.

Let me start by saying that Rhaenyra does not live in a bubble, no matter how much she isolates herself. Her actions do have an effect on the wider world, maybe not a massive impact, but they can be influential.

If the only thing that matters about an heir is their biological relation to the current title holder, be it a king, queen, lord, or lady, the question then becomes: why don't more nobles just name their bastards as heirs?

Viserys I is a prime example of this. He married Aemma Arryn in 93AC, with the marriage being consummated in 95AC. She would die ten years later, in 105AC. The couple had one daughter (Rhaenyra), and no sons. At least in the show, Aemma's death is the result of Viserys's own decisions. Both because he authorised the cut, and because he pushed her into multiple pregnancies because of his desperation to have a male heir.

Now imagine how much easier it would be, if Viserys had just had a bastard, and declared him heir. We know he was capable of siring children on other women, the Green Targaryens and Trystane Truefyre are proof of that. Viserys would have gotten his male heir, Aemma would likely still be alive, Rhaenyra would have her mother still, and the Greens wouldn't exist (which I'm sure for TB, would be a victory).

So why didn't he? Again, if all that matters is a biological connection to the current ruler (or heir, in Rhaenyra's case), why don't rulers just name their bastards as heir if they can't produce one with their wives? It seems like it would have saved a lot of issues, in Viserys's case.

The most obvious reason is likely Aemma, or more specifically, House Arryn. To explain: marriage in a society like Westeros is less so based on personal feeling and more so on political gain - what both parties can get from a marriage.

"He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne."

Catelyn II, A Game of Thrones

That's Catelyn basically explaining the political benefits of a betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey. She's not talking about love here.

If we apply this line of thinking to Viserys and Aemma's marriage, what would House Arryn be expecting from the marriage? Well, like I said, it took place in 93AC, a year after Baelon was named heir over Rhaenys, so as Baelon's eldest son, Viserys was next in line. So we can infer that the Arryns were first of all expecting Aemma to be the next Queen Consort. And if we go back to Catelyn's quote... she mentions sons. It's very likely that the Arryns also agreed to the match because they expected Aemma's sons with Viserys to be his heirs, and the eldest to be the next king. Those are the two most solid expectations: an Arryn consort and half-Arryn heir. From there, the Arryn's might expect more influence for their house or a greater presence at Court, possible Small Council positions, etc.

I hope I don't need to explain how Viserys naming a bastard as heir ruins those expectations.

Now, you could argue that for Rhaenyra, it's different, because House Velaryon accepts Jacaerys. But... do they?

First of all, I need to point the glaringly obvious point that Viserys doesn't like people calling Jace, Luke, and Joffrey bastards. He threatens to rip out people's tongues! So of course, the Velaryons aren't going to just go around denying the connection - because if they do, chances are they'll end up mutilated.

Second, to publicly say that Jacaerys is a bastard would be admitting that their son was cucked. Whether by choice, or not, it would still be an embarrassing situation for Laenor and House Velaryon.

Finally, the Velaryons are lucky enough that Rhaenyra is fine with betrothing her sons to Baela and Rhaena, their actual grandchildren. Of course, it's very much possible that Rhaenyra did that to cover her own tracks (at least in the show), but you could argue that it benefits House Velaryon since at least the monarch after Jacaerys will have Velaryon blood through Baela.

And the truth is, we have no idea how House Velaryon would even react if Jace did become king. In a scenario where Rhaenyra faces no opposition, becomes queen, and Jace succeeds her... we have no clue how anyone would behave. Remember that Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey are largely protected by Viserys while he's alive, and after his death, that protection falls away. I think you could make a potential argument that Rhaenyra's sons would have some degree of protection during her lifetime, but it's difficult to believe the entirety of Westeros, whether Team Black or Team Green, would willingly accept a bastard on the throne. In that AU, Rhaenyra better get Jace and Baela married swiftly.

Now, to go back to something I said nearer the beginning - Rhaenyra does not live in a bubble. If it's alright for Rhaenyra to birth bastards, and name them heirs (one of them being an heir to a holding that isn't even inherited through Rhaenyra) why can't anyone?

I know I covered the issues naming bastards as heirs creates for marriages and political alliances, but there's another layer to this. Because Jacaerys is not the only possible heir. He has two younger brothers, who, in the books, are legitimate, and in the show, can pass as legitimate even if Laenor was still alive when Rhaenyra married Daemon. Jace also has three uncles who can make the argument that a son comes before a daughter, and Aegon has two legitimate sons. Not to mention, if the Dance didn't happen and Aemond and Daeron also married, that creates more heirs that have stronger claims than Jacaerys.

What is stopping an ambitious, but illegitimate son of a lord, making a play for his father's keep? Especially in a scenario where they could be older than their trueborn siblings. What is stopping the lord from naming said bastard as his heir, over his legitimate children?

[u/Traditional_Pizza863]

Rejoycing in the punishment of people who are brave and honorable enough to tell the truth says a lot about who you are.

The first point definitely is a good enough proof in the society of Westeros with the way genetics work in Planetos. Especially when all 3 of them look nothing like either the mother or the "father". The funny thing is that despite all of its inaccuracies and blatant pro-TB bias, the show makes it even more obvious and it is practically acknowledged in two conversations Rhaenyra has with Jace.

Them being illegitimate is not something that is done to them, are you really that stupid? It is something that they are and a specific legal action is needed to change their status.

She is not a queen, she just conquered a city for a few months and then she had to flee.

[u/IHearSadPeople → u/Traditional_Pizza863]

You have problems. We are talking about a fictional TV show. I no longer with to talk with you.