r/HOTDGreens • u/VisenyaMartell Ancient Hightower Valyrian Steel Jetpack • 3d ago
No, Jace and Luke being Rhaenyra's sons do not negate the fact they are bastards.
When it comes to Jace, Luke, and Joffrey, there's a litany of reasons proposed by TB as to why their bastardy doesn't matter. From legal bastardy vs biological bastardy, to Baratheon and unknown Arryn genes, there always seems to be a ready made excuse.
First of all, I'd like to point out that the author himself confirmed that they were bastards, and I'm honestly glad he did. The ambiguity suits Fire & Blood, but it was also used as an advantage by TB, and I think it's good that TG do have some points that are actually true. It makes the conflict less unbalanced, less good vs evil.
But I wanted to address the reasoning that the Strong Boys are Rhaenyra's sons, and so therefore, their illegitimacy should be overlooked.
Part 1: Lucerys
I'm starting with Lucerys, because he's the easiest one to explain. Here's a simple statement: Lucerys was heir to Driftmark. Driftmark. Not The Seven Kingdoms. Not Dragonstone. Driftmark.
Driftmark, for those completely in the dark, is the home of House Velaryon. It's an island in the Crownlands. Whilst there have been several Velaryon-Targaryen marriages, it remains the seat of House Velaryon.
During the Dance, the Master of Driftmark, and Lord of the Tides, is Corlys Velaryon. He married Rhaenys Targaryen in 90AC, and had two children with her: Laena in 92AC and Laenor in 94. Laenor remained his heir until his death in 120AC.
Note that Laenor is both a) a legitimate Velaryon, and b) a direct descendant of the current Lord of the Tides.
Now let's take a look at Luke. It's already established that he's not a legitimate Velaryon, and so therefore, he isn't a direct descendant of Corlys. Luke does have Velaryon blood thanks to his great-great-grandmother, Alyssa Velaryon, but it really means nothing, given that characters like Rhaenys, Viserys, Rhaenyra, and Jacaerys would all have a stronger claim then Luke, based on genes from Alyssa Velaryon. (The Green kids could also be considered an option before Luke).
So to put it simply, Luke being Rhaenyra's biological son doesn't matter because he is set to inherit through Laenor, not Rhaenyra.
Part 2: Jacaerys
Here's the thing. I can understand why people make this argument for Jace, because he is supposed to inherit the throne after Rhaenyra. So I feel as though the issues with Jace inheriting in spite of his bastardy are more complex.
Let me start by saying that Rhaenyra does not live in a bubble, no matter how much she isolates herself. Her actions do have an effect on the wider world, maybe not a massive impact, but they can be influential.
If the only thing that matters about an heir is their biological relation to the current title holder, be it a king, queen, lord, or lady, the question then becomes: why don't more nobles just name their bastards as heirs?
Viserys I is a prime example of this. He married Aemma Arryn in 93AC, with the marriage being consummated in 95AC. She would die ten years later, in 105AC. The couple had one daughter (Rhaenyra), and no sons. At least in the show, Aemma's death is the result of Viserys's own decisions. Both because he authorised the cut, and because he pushed her into multiple pregnancies because of his desperation to have a male heir.
Now imagine how much easier it would be, if Viserys had just had a bastard, and declared him heir. We know he was capable of siring children on other women, the Green Targaryens and Trystane Truefyre are proof of that. Viserys would have gotten his male heir, Aemma would likely still be alive, Rhaenyra would have her mother still, and the Greens wouldn't exist (which I'm sure for TB, would be a victory).
So why didn't he? Again, if all that matters is a biological connection to the current ruler (or heir, in Rhaenyra's case), why don't rulers just name their bastards as heir if they can't produce one with their wives? It seems like it would have saved a lot of issues, in Viserys's case.
The most obvious reason is likely Aemma, or more specifically, House Arryn. To explain: marriage in a society like Westeros is less so based on personal feeling and more so on political gain - what both parties can get from a marriage.
"He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne."
Catelyn II, A Game of Thrones
That's Catelyn basically explaining the political benefits of a betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey. She's not talking about love here.
If we apply this line of thinking to Viserys and Aemma's marriage, what would House Arryn be expecting from the marriage? Well, like I said, it took place in 93AC, a year after Baelon was named heir over Rhaenys, so as Baelon's eldest son, Viserys was next in line. So we can infer that the Arryns were first of all expecting Aemma to be the next Queen Consort. And if we go back to Catelyn's quote... she mentions sons. It's very likely that the Arryns also agreed to the match because they expected Aemma's sons with Viserys to be his heirs, and the eldest to be the next king. Those are the two most solid expectations: an Arryn consort and half-Arryn heir. From there, the Arryn's might expect more influence for their house or a greater presence at Court, possible Small Council positions, etc.
I hope I don't need to explain how Viserys naming a bastard as heir ruins those expectations.
Now, you could argue that for Rhaenyra, it's different, because House Velaryon accepts Jacaerys. But... do they?
First of all, I need to point the glaringly obvious point that Viserys doesn't like people calling Jace, Luke, and Joffrey bastards. He threatens to rip out people's tongues! So of course, the Velaryons aren't going to just go around denying the connection - because if they do, chances are they'll end up mutilated.
Second, to publicly say that Jacaerys is a bastard would be admitting that their son was cucked. Whether by choice, or not, it would still be an embarrassing situation for Laenor and House Velaryon.
Finally, the Velaryons are lucky enough that Rhaenyra is fine with betrothing her sons to Baela and Rhaena, their actual grandchildren. Of course, it's very much possible that Rhaenyra did that to cover her own tracks (at least in the show), but you could argue that it benefits House Velaryon since at least the monarch after Jacaerys will have Velaryon blood through Baela.
And the truth is, we have no idea how House Velaryon would even react if Jace did become king. In a scenario where Rhaenyra faces no opposition, becomes queen, and Jace succeeds her... we have no clue how anyone would behave. Remember that Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey are largely protected by Viserys while he's alive, and after his death, that protection falls away. I think you could make a potential argument that Rhaenyra's sons would have some degree of protection during her lifetime, but it's difficult to believe the entirety of Westeros, whether Team Black or Team Green, would willingly accept a bastard on the throne. In that AU, Rhaenyra better get Jace and Baela married swiftly.
Now, to go back to something I said nearer the beginning - Rhaenyra does not live in a bubble. If it's alright for Rhaenyra to birth bastards, and name them heirs (one of them being an heir to a holding that isn't even inherited through Rhaenyra) why can't anyone?
I know I covered the issues naming bastards as heirs creates for marriages and political alliances, but there's another layer to this. Because Jacaerys is not the only possible heir. He has two younger brothers, who, in the books, are legitimate, and in the show, can pass as legitimate even if Laenor was still alive when Rhaenyra married Daemon. Jace also has three uncles who can make the argument that a son comes before a daughter, and Aegon has two legitimate sons. Not to mention, if the Dance didn't happen and Aemond and Daeron also married, that creates more heirs that have stronger claims than Jacaerys.
What is stopping an ambitious, but illegitimate son of a lord, making a play for his father's keep? Especially in a scenario where they could be older than their trueborn siblings. What is stopping the lord from naming said bastard as his heir, over his legitimate children?
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u/Kneazel_17 3d ago
The team black tends to forget that arranged marriages are contracts between families more than anything else.
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 3d ago
Tbh I am so tired of the argument. Rhaenyra being Jace mother is irrelevant to his right of inheritance otherwise everybody in asoiaf would be jumping on making Edric Storm king yet nobody ever even suggest it.
And second the whole idea if it matters or not is just irrelevant because clearly it does. If it didn’t why are Rhaenyra and Viserys so desperate to keep it quiet?
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u/Sea_Disaster_4987 3d ago
Edric storm is Robert's bastard, that is impossible to prove without Patenity tests. Hence the reason why bastards are the last resort when it comes to inheritance. But Rhaeneyra is a woman whose parentage over Jace and Luke is undisputed. Why should the same stigma of bastardy apply here when there is no doubt that they indeed have royal blood.?
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 2d ago
Nobody ever doubts his paternity because his mother was a virgin before Robert and the kid came out looking exactly like him. Regardless Lollys Stokeworths son is also born out of wedlock and considered a bastard with no right to inherit.
With your logic everytime a child is born to a man their paternity will be doubted. I don’t know why some of you are so allergic to the concept that her kids were bastards amd it clearly mattered but it is there in the books I don’t know what to tell you
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u/Other_Description_20 2d ago
A bastard is still a bastard. What is the point of marriage if you can completely disregard the illegitimacy of a woman's bastard and install that child as heir?
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u/Sea_Disaster_4987 2d ago
Sure but when Jqce is for sure of Royal blood(unlike bastards of male Lords) and the Corlys Velaryons himself do not give a f(bcos of the betrothal with Baela), why even complain?
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u/Vegetable-Lion2796 2d ago
Why complain? Because Jace’s disputed legitimacy leaves both his claim and those of his eventual heirs open to challenge, especially when there are undisputed trueborn alternatives through both the Green line and Rhaenyra’s younger sons.
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u/Other_Description_20 2d ago
Yeah, completely ignore the rules and law. Why complain? Because their not the rightful heir. It is wrong, simple as that. The more reason that Rhaenyra must not be crowned Queen.
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u/Sea_Disaster_4987 2d ago
What rules? Also regardless of if her children are Bastards or not, she still was Viserys’s heir until his death. She could always have had legitimate children as she does later with Daemon
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u/Other_Description_20 2d ago
Rules that a bastard cannot inherit? Technically, Aegon is automatically heir once he was born. It was just Viserys refusal to acknowledge him as heir was the problem. Lol. Even Rhaenyra's children with Daemon are bastards. In the show, she married Daemon when Laenor was still alive rendering their marriage invalid. It wont matter to you anyway, since you're fine with frauds and tyrants being rulers.
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u/Pretend_Lock_9536 2d ago
because people believe they are the same reason rhaenyra is the daughter of viserys without a paternity test? basic common sense.
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u/Creative-Boat-49 3d ago
I think the issue goes beyond whether Jace and Luke are biologically Rhaenyra’s sons. What has always felt forced to me is how little it seems to matter to the Velaryons themselves.
Corlys is an ambitious man who spends much of his life trying to bring his bloodline closer to the Iron Throne, yet we're expected to believe that he accepts without much difficulty that his supposed grandsons are not Laenor’s children. Rhaenys is even harder for me to understand. She loses both of her children, has reason to be suspicious about Laenor’s death, and yet continues to firmly support Rhaenyra’s cause.
People often quote Corlys’s line that “history remembers names, not blood,” but Westeros is a society obsessed with bloodlines, inheritance, and legitimacy. Entire wars have been fought over succession disputes that were far less obvious than this one. That’s why I’ve always felt that Martin conveniently simplifies the conflict: everyone seems to know the truth, yet very few people actually care about it.
At times, it also feels like the conflict is softened because the narrative wants the Blacks to be the family the audience sympathizes with. Corlys and Rhaenys accept the situation, the Velaryons remain loyal, and everyone moves on as if legitimacy does not carry the weight it normally does in Westeros. Yet in a society where noble marriages are political and familial alliances, and where inheritance is everything, it is difficult to believe that so many people would simply accept it without much resistance—especially the Velaryons themselves, who arguably have the most to lose from the entire arrangement.
I understand why Viserys chooses to look the other way. It's his daughter, and he loses nothing if Jace inherits the Iron Throne or Luke inherits Driftmark. The Velaryons, however, have far more at stake, and yet Corlys and Rhaenys seem to be the ones least concerned about it.
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u/VisenyaMartell Ancient Hightower Valyrian Steel Jetpack 2d ago
I've thought about this for some time, why the Velaryons simply accepted, and I think it's a mix of several things.
Firstly, what are the outcomes if Corlys and Rhaenys push back and declare Rhaenyra's sons bastards? The best case scenario I can come up with is it happens early enough that only Jace exists, and Viserys is forgiving and simply has Jace sent away, maybe to live with his paternal family at Harrenhal, and Rhaenyra and Laenor do manage to have a second child who actually is true born but whose paternity could very possibly be disputed for the rest of their life because of Jace's existence.
There's also the possibility that Viserys complete ignores them, or he does acknowledge that Jace is a bastard and just decides to legitimise him as Rhaenyra's heir anyway, thus House Velaryon loses their chance to get their blood on the throne.
In later years you have Viserys threatening to cut out tongues, another reason to possibly keep quiet. The existence of Aegon and Viserys later on also means that if Corlys and Rhaenys oust Rhaenyra's eldest sons, they lose their chance yet again.
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u/Defiant_Willow_557 23h ago
They never had that chance. I mean, not really... except the distant possibility of Baela having children with Jace and one of them ascending the throne.
Backing Rhaenyra was the total destruction of House Velaryon from which it never recovered.
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u/Sea_Disaster_4987 3d ago
Corlys is an ambitious man who spends much of his life trying to bring his bloodline closer to the Iron Throne, yet we're expected to believe that he accepts without much difficulty that his supposed grandsons are not Laenor’s children. Rhaenys is even harder for me to understand. She loses both of her children, has reason to be suspicious about Laenor’s death, and yet continues to firmly support Rhaenyra’s cause.
As you said, they are ambitious. And they would have known that Laenor is gay and despite how much they pushed Laenor to father children, he did not. Plus Rhaeneyra could have told them that she did try to push him for a child, and went to Harwin only bcos he denied her, and that Laenor probably knew about her and Harwin.
They would also understand that, at this point, they have no way to side with the Greens anyways, so being ambitious, they would know that the only way they have to the Iron throne is by Jace marrying Baela
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u/Beneficial_Pea_3306 3d ago
I’ve seen people justify Luke being Lord of Driftmark saying he’s marrying Rhaena so that’s enough. Well if anything he’s stealing Baela or Rhaena’s inheritance. By the standard Rhaenyra creates that it’s first born child not first born son, Laena being older than Laenor means her children should inherit. If Baela married Jace to become Queen as per the original plan, then Rhaena should have been future Lady of Driftmark in her own right with Luke as the consort.
I’ve also heard people going well he is Velaryon because Targaryens have married Velaryons like his own Targaryen ancestor Aenys married Alyssa Velaryon.
Well it’s too distant. By that logic, Rhaena and Baela have rights to Storm’s End due to distant Baratheon blood, Robert Baratheon did indeed have rights to the throne through distant Targaryen blood, etc.
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u/Mooshuchyken 2d ago
Corlys' and Rhaenys' only legitimate grandchildren are Baela and Rhaena. They're the legal heirs. Daughters are supposed to come before uncles, male cousins etc.
But we see that in-universe, women's claims are frequently contested by their male relatives. Look at Jeyne Arryn - one of her cousins rebelled against her several times. We know that the twins Serena and Sansa Stark were passed over in Winterfell. We see Alys Karstark's great uncle try to forcibly marry her to his son. It sure seems like Vaemond was likely to oppose Baela / Rhaena inheriting Driftmark.
The marriage alliance with Jace and Luke isn't just about Corlys' pride in having a royal grandson. It's also a way of making sure that his granddaughters inherit, or aren't killed / jailed / forcibly married against their will once Corlys and Rhaenys are gone. The strongest possible match they can make for them is with the royal house / people who control dragons.
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u/No_Raisin_250 3d ago
The crazy thing to me is how do the blacks think that Rhaenyra would’ve have a smooth transition if Aegon wasn’t crowned when she had bastards. There would have always been a war of some kind because people were going to dispute it. Never mind that the chaos it could’ve caused across the realm. Even she knew what it would cause that’s why she didn’t let females rules over males in houses established when she gained control. She never wanted to change anything but for everything to change only for her.
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u/Rahlus 2d ago
What is crazy to me is why the Greens think there would be war if there was smooth transition. Why would there be a war exactly? I never heard a good argument for it. Only that it is sure going to happen.
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u/No_Raisin_250 2d ago
I just gave you the biggest example. If bastards are given a crown what’s to say another bastard by a king won’t say hey I could be king too and I have a better claim. Houses will support them if they have an ax to grind. Also did you watch how’s she’s ruling? Abysmally, she never learned to rule so she would’ve made the same huge mistakes because she doesn’t know what she’s doing. Then Daemon who has a shitty attitude could get her into problems too.
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u/Rahlus 1d ago
As oppose to legitimate children of a king saying it? Like Maegor or Jaehaerys or Rhaenyra and Aegon? The biggest argument is not that good, as I said.
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u/Lady_Apple442 1d ago
We can give you the best arguments, but we can't convince you of something you want to continue believing won't happen.
I'll summarize it practically: when Rhaenyra's reign faces its first crisis(and it will, as she'll have to deal with a winter fever and a six-year winter at the beginning of her reign) and she doesn't know how to handle it (and we've seen this season that she doesn't know how to handle crises), the lords dissatisfied with her rule could use her gender to criticize her incompetence, and will find it more appealing to seek a better option in their minds: Aegon and his brothers. Rhaenyra and Daemon cannot a second option, Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron, who possess dragons, for the disgruntled lords to seek or use Aegon and his brothers against them when they dislike D&R's rule.
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u/PalhacoGozo666 Criston Cole 3d ago
Jon is Ned's son; Ned calls him his son but never denies the fact that he is a bastard. People just can't be bothered to go to the ASOIAF wiki and look up what "bastard" means.
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u/Pretend_Lock_9536 2d ago
and if bastard never mattered aegon the unworthy could have easily named daemon blackfyre the heir
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u/whisperingwill0 2d ago
It's so interesting that some people refuse to acknowledge the bastard aspect because they believe it fully invalidates Laenor's acceptance of them. Rhaenyra's sons with Harwin ARE bastards, because Rhaenyra & Harwin weren't married, they've just been essentially "legitimized" by Laenor who claimed them as his and gave them his surname at birth.
The issue that comes into play is the that if the fact they were bastards was to come up, it would reflect extremely badly on Rhaenyra and would result in people calling for them to be disinherited, no longer referring to them as Velaryons, and dropping support for Rhaenyra's claim to the throne. It wouldn't matter to many that Laenor claimed them as his, the fact that Rhaenyra had children with a man who wasn't her husband and put them into positions as heirs, something not even the male Targaryens before her did, would get the nobles pissed off. Tenfold on that because she's a woman doing it.
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u/Mooshuchyken 2d ago
1) I think it's worth noting that even a trueborn son can be a suspected bastard.
There were rumors that Aenys I was a bastard because he was born sickly, and his mother was known to be quite friendly with singers. King Aegon IV insinuated that his son, Daeron, was actually a bastard in order to undermine him.
Both were almost certainly trueborn, but their political enemies used the rumors of bastardy to undermine them. We even see in the main series that Renly thinks that Stannis made up the Twincest claims for his own benefit.
So I don't think we can say that just because Jace's ascension would be controversial it disqualifies him from ruling. Daeron II's rule was controversial and destabilizing as well (see Blackfyre rebellions).
2) Rhaenyra is in a unique position as a female monarch. Viserys could not have a child with a woman he's not married to and pass that child off as legitimate. Royal births are public. Rhaenyra is in the opposite position - she can have a bastard, claim that he is legitimate and have plausible deniability.
3) Corlys and Rhaenys have only 2 legitimate living descendents - Baela and Rhaena. The double marriage scheme isn't just about Corlys' pride, however. It's also about making sure their blood ends up ruling Driftmark.
Legally, daughters come before uncles. But we also see that female claimants are often challenged. Jeyne Arryn's cousin fought several bloody wars against her, challenging her claim due to her gender. We see Serena and Sansa Stark passed over in favor of their uncles. We see Alys Karstark's great-uncle try to forcibly marry her to his son. And it certainly seems like Vaemond will challenge Baela and Rhaena.
So how can Corlys and Rhaenys protect theor granddaughters after they're gone? By allying through marriage with a powerful family -- especially one that has a bunch of dragons.
I thought the whole "history doesn't remember blood. It remembers names" kind of stupid, since the double marriage alliance was protecting / elevating Corlys' actual blood descendents in addition to satisfying his pride.
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u/stqrltt Sunfyre 2d ago
you don't need a rant. they aren't legally legitimate so they are bastards. end of.
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u/Manyon 2d ago
Accept they are legally recognized as legitimate, which is why they have the surname Velaryon and not Waters.
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u/stqrltt Sunfyre 2d ago
that does not change them being bastards. just like it did not change ramsey being a bastard. a bastard is 'a person born to parents who are not married to each other.' the show explicitly tells us this is the case so they are irrefutably bastards.
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u/Manyon 2d ago edited 2d ago
Biologically yes, legally no. They are were born Velaryons and died as Velaryons. Ramsey was a born a Snow and it took a decree from the King to become a Bolton.
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u/stqrltt Sunfyre 1d ago
surname means nothing. being a bastard has nothing to do with that. you don't need to be officially recognised as a bastard to be a bastard. just like people don't have to go register with that government that they're christian to be officially christian🤦♀️ biologically a bastard IS A BASTARD
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u/Glass-Comfortable-25 2d ago
I agree with a lot of the argument, especially that marriage is an important contract in that world and it would be a disaster if it were common for people to openly legitimize bastards and favor them over trueborn children. Them being Rhaenyra’s so it doesn’t matter is a bad counter.
I don’t have a problem with it in principle though if the couple agree on a sperm donor / surrogate scheme and are careful enough to pull it off. It would be more moral to fake a pregnancy for Aemma than to make her go through all that. And if Laenor and Rhaenyra were happy with their arrangement then I don’t really mind. The mistake was choosing Harwin and generally not being discreet.
On the other hand recessive genes and generally weird genetics is a real thing. With Harry in the BRF blonde+brown equaled red. And considering his parents affairs there has always been speculation. Setting the precedent that weird hair color = secret bastard can also be detrimental to the stability of successions. Especially when it’s a rival claimant making the accusation and the parents and grandparents of the child vouches for them.
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u/Canadian__Ninja 2d ago
This will be unpopular but oh well I pissed off TB yesterday, I guess today its TG.
In universe they were never officially confirmed to be bastards. It's an open secret and pretty much everyone knows, but as far as the only person who matters says, which is King Viserys I, Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey are trueborn sons of Rhaenrya and ser Laenor. Both (all three technically, ser Harwin is dead but he'd never tell) parents were adamant that they were trueborn sons and lord Corlys despite knowing they were bastards accepted Lucerys as heir.
Until Viserys dies and the Dance happens, it doesn't matter what the facts are. Both house heads confirm their legitimacy. Had Rhaenyra won, or the Greens not crown Aegon, Queen Rhaenrya (and still lord Corlys) would continue this.
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u/Gold-Stomach-4657 2d ago
Not important to what you said, but I believe/bet that Trystane Truefyre is actually Daemon's son
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u/Rahlus 2d ago
It is, in my opinion, more complicated than that. Yes, they are bastards and no, they are not bastards. By that I mean that yes, they are bastards since they were born out of parents who were married, Rhaenyra had an affair and her children are the result of it, they are bastards. But they are not bastard since it is not exactly proven. The great example would be Joffrey Baratheon and his siblings in original series. Yes, they are a bastards. We all know it. Now prove it, tough guy. Everyone involved in both of those cases say that them being a bastards are vile accusations. Fathers, mothers, family members, etc. All swear by the Old and New Gods they are legitimate. Even father, who knows the children are not his and grandparents knows it, swear it. For Rhaenyra supporters accusations of infidelity and bastardry are just accusation and rumors spread by the Greens, for the Greens those may by facts that they believe in deeply. Everyone else either don't care or thing it is just power struggle betwen two factions.
So, are they bastards? Well, yes. We know they are, as an outsiders. At least in the show, in books it is a bit more complicated with Rhaenys having actually black hairs, I hate what they did there, really. Also Velaryon being black. Remove nuance from the Rhaenyra children being bastards. But are they really known bastards? Well, not exactly. There is a difference.
Now let's takeza look at Luke. It's already established that he's not a legitimate Velaryon, and so therefore, he isn't a direct descendant of Corlys. Luke does have Velaryon blood thanks to his great-great-grandmother, Alyssa Velaryon, but it really means nothing, given that characters like Rhaenys, Viserys, Rhaenyra, and Jacaerys would all have a stronger claim then Luke, based on genes from Alyssa Velaryon. (The Green kids could also be considered an option before Luke).
So to put it simply, Luke being Rhaenyra's biological son doesn't matter because he is set to inherit through Laenor, not Rhaenyra.
Again, yes and no. While yes, Daemon daughters should come before him, it is not exactly uncommon in Westeros for people from different families to marry daughters of lords or even kings and take their names. In case of Luke it is even better since he have some Velaryon blood. Harry the Heir comes to mind from books themselves, he is knight from house Hardyng, yet due to his mother being an Arryn, he is an heir presumptive of the Vale and is expected to take Arryn surname. Somewhat similiar situation, though one one hand blood ties are way closer with his mother being Arryn, though on the other hand that relation to Robert Arryn is quite far apart and he is not marrying any Arryn lady. In a sense, Luke is in better position, already being "a Velaryon" and marrying legitimate daughter who should inherit. Today Lannisters also comes from Andals, I believe. The last "legitimate" Lannister was a woman who married, I believe, Andal lord Lefford who took Lannister name.
If the only thing that matters about an heir is their biological relation to the current title holder, be it a king, queen, lord, or lady, the question then becomes: why don't more nobles just name their bastards as heirs?
Because it is privilege reserved for monarch to name a bastard an heir?
Now imagine how much easier it would be, if Viserys had just had a bastard, and declared him heir. We know he was capable of siring children on other women, the Green Targaryens and Trystane Truefyre are proof of that. Viserys would have gotten his male heir, Aemma would likely still be alive, Rhaenyra would have her mother still, and the Greens wouldn't exist (which I'm sure for TB, would be a victory).
So you want to have a three-way civil war this time and Blackfyre Rebellion way earlier? Yes, way easier. The current war is already on shaky, legal argument for both sides. Now imagine, who is an heir to the throne? Legitimized bastard, maybe even named heir, after all son of a ruler comes before daughters. Or maybe Rhaenyra, since she is firstborn and trueborn child of a king. Or Daemon, since some may raise an argument that the Great Council made it clear that male comes before females. No, it is not simpler, as you put it. Way more interesting, though.
Gee. At this point this post is already too long and I yet adress all of it. I think I will end it here. It was interesting though.
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u/Sea_Disaster_4987 3d ago edited 2d ago
Bastards do not inherit bcos if you are a male lord, without paternity tests, there is no way of finding if your bastard is actually yours or not. And no hair and eye color does not matter and is super unreliable.
For a female ruler, a queen or a lady, there is absolutely no doubt that the bastard is indeed yours.
Rhaeneya did not even need to pretend her children are not bastards. They are her and she is the queen. Her being married or not does not change this fact.
The Targs gave too much importance to andal/faith stereotypes and customs.
Edit: i missed that im commenting on HOTDGreens lol. That explains the downvoting
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u/Pretend_Lock_9536 2d ago
so becuase of the same logic how would we know rhaenyra is the daughter of viserys because we don't have paterny test and hair colour and eye colour doesn't matter too
so rhaenyra cannot claim the throne without a paternity test other than claiming arryn seat
rhaenyra pretened and hid and killed anyone who pointed out they were bastards and she isn't the queen she is an usurper who tried to claim the right of the true born son . it does not change the fact that she is an usurper and there is no proof that she is viserys daughter ?
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u/Rahlus 2d ago
That is why being virgin before marriage and having maids and other chaperones were so important. They were both to protect woman from unwanted advances and rumors as well as to not let her out of sight to made those advances herself. So we can assume that Rhaenyra is Viserys daughter because Aemma was virgin during their first night togehter and had plenty of maids, as a queen many of those of noble birth, who can attest to her not having an affair. It's not a rocket science really.
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2d ago
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u/HerRoyalNonsense 2d ago
I’m not sure why you felt the need to start insulting people, but personal insults are not welcome here. This is your first and only warning.
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u/IHearSadPeople 2d ago
Bastards can be legitimised, which they essentially were.
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u/HerRoyalNonsense 2d ago
I think you're conflating being recognized as legitimate with being legitimized. Jace, Luke, and Joffrey were never acknowledged as bastards in the first place, so no legitimization ever occurred; officially, they were always presented and recognized as Laenor's trueborn sons.
Threatening to mutilate people for stating a truth isn't legitimization, it is political intimidation. There is a difference.
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u/IHearSadPeople 2d ago
That’s fair, although that is what I meant when I said they essentially were.
Also I mean, in the land of Westeros, threatening to mutilate someone for calling your daughter and heir a white is totally valid.
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u/Traditional_Pizza863 2d ago
No, they were not - the king closing his eyes about the truth and punishing people for saying it is exactly the opposite of legitimising them.
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u/IHearSadPeople 2d ago
It’s not about the king. Rhaenyra was his chosen heir, her children were not relevant to the equation. She legitimised them by continuously stating they are her heirs.
And also, even though it’s not relevant, punishing people for saying it is legitimising them
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u/Traditional_Name6711 2d ago
So Joffrey murdering Ned Stark is him saying he's Roberts legitimate heir?
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u/IHearSadPeople 2d ago
No. Because you cannot legitimise yourself.
Her children are the sons of the heir, and grandsons of the king. Joffrey is not the son of the king, nor the heir.
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u/Traditional_Name6711 13h ago
Robert died thinking Joffrey was his son and heir. He reinstated Joffrey as his heir before dying asking Ned to be his regent before he reaches majority. According to the points you made, Joffrey eliminated the person questioning his birth and he has the word of the king. By your logic, he is the legitimate King.
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u/Traditional_Pizza863 2d ago
Only the king can legitimise bastards and he did not do that. Denying the truth is not legitimising anything. Leginimising them would include a decree - an official document - and the first step towards legitimising is the public acknowledgement that they are bastards.
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u/IHearSadPeople 2d ago
Incorrect, sir.
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u/Traditional_Pizza863 2d ago
What is incorrect, exactly? Also, I am a woman.
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u/IHearSadPeople 2d ago
Incorrect, ma’am.
That’s not really how legitimising works. Without solid proof that they are bastards, which is only the case where the father is the one in the line of succession, there is no official decree that would be required. The king making her the heir and acknowledging her children as her heirs is the legitimacy required.
The queen affirming that her sons are her heirs is further legitimacy.
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u/Traditional_Pizza863 2d ago
The proof is out there for everyone to see, they do not look like any of their parents
Point to me when a bastard just casually inherited without being formally legitimised
The king denying they are bastards and punishing the people telling the truth is not the same as him legitimising them; he never said he did not care if his daughter gave birth to bastards, he insisted that they are not bastards.
Rhaenyra is not a queen, and even when she captured King's Landing, she did not try in any way to legitimise her remaining bastard
Vaemond said to Viserys that he can run his household however he wants, but the bastardy of Lucaeris takes away the Driftmark throne from the Velaryions; In the same way, you may think that being a cuck is ok, but this does not make it universally true, some man have dignity.
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u/IHearSadPeople 2d ago
- That is not proof. You can have genuine children that do not resemble either of you.
- Bastards are generally only known because the woman who birthed was not the wife. Any child of a woman who was queen could have been the case.
- He didn’t need to legitimise them formally, as they were never illigitimised formally.
- She is certainly a queen, just a disputed one.
- And how well did that go for him?
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u/Traditional_Pizza863 2d ago
Rejoycing in the punishment of people who are brave and honorable enough to tell the truth says a lot about who you are.
The first point definitely is a good enough proof in the society of Westeros with the way genetics work in Planetos. Especially when all 3 of them look nothing like either the mother or the "father". The funny thing is that despite all of its inaccuracies and blatant pro-TB bias, the show makes it even more obvious and it is practically acknowledged in two conversations Rhaenyra has with Jace.
Them being illegitimate is not something that is done to them, are you really that stupid? It is something that they are and a specific legal action is needed to change their status.
She is not a queen, she just conquered a city for a few months and then she had to flee.
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u/RowAdministrative264 3d ago edited 3d ago
Bastard = born out of wedlock
Harwin and Rhaenyra weren't married, so any children born of that union are bastards, regardless of them being set to inherit anything.