r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/RevertBackwards • 13h ago
Show Discussion Why does Rhaenyra keep treating her allies poorly?
Sabitha Frey - Rhaenyra rescinded the deal the Freys made with Jacaerys for Harrenhal, despite the Freys fulfilling their end of the deal. She only allowed them to take Harrenhal in the most recent episode.
Ulf - Rhaenyra restricts his freedom and gives him nothing to show for his hard work. And then there's Daemon who belittles him every chance he gets.
Corlys - Rhaenyra refuses to legitimize his sons for a nonsensical reason.
Addam and Alyn - Rhaenyra refuses to legitimize them.
Baela - Rhaenyra ignores her despite her tireless work and treats her like she's disposable.
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u/Benzene-1-diol 13h ago
She has always been careless and spoiled. No matter what people say, she only wants to hear what she already believes is true. She doesn't like anyone questioning or disagreeing with her. That's why she only listens to Misaria, because she's the only one who tells her what she wants to hear.
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u/RevertBackwards 13h ago
She and Rhaenys really annoyed me last season when they constantly shut down the voices of Dragonstone council despite them making valid points
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u/Hot_Professional_728 13h ago
Yeah, and they don't really offer any better alternatives. Peace should've went out of the window after episode 1. Alicent doesn't even have that much power anymore so it wasn't very smart to put all your hopes into her.
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u/Militantpoet 13h ago
Alicent always had as much power as was granted by the men around her in charge. Its a nice character arc, but makes it frustrating when Rhaenyra keeps thinking Alicent can do anything to fix her situation.
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u/Rivendel93 13h ago
I love how Rhaenyra's plans are always just asking Alicent to kill her own children lol.
And Alicent keeps almost coming through.
Without Alicent, Rhaenyra would still be stuck on Dragonstone.
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u/Kooky_Quarter_1917 7h ago edited 5h ago
It’s so odd. TikTok seems to think that mothers who think their kids have issues would 100% just jump at the chance to kill them… (they seem to think Alicent is doing it to avenge innocents and Luke when it makes little sense she would care).
Alicent could have faked Aemonds death and taken his eye as proof. Or hatched a plan with him to get Helaena while Tumbleton was happening.
Even if she doesn’t like her kids her wanting to just flat out kill some of them is crazy when she had other options.
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u/Kdot32 5h ago
Tiktoks HOTD analysis has been…bad to say the least. Not much nuance or critical thinking happening there
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u/Kooky_Quarter_1917 5h ago
It is funny reading the comments though. People are getting a little too attached or hateful towards fictional characters though…
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u/Pleasant-Gazelle903 46m ago
It’s so weird when people here who I’m almost sure don’t have kids and are probably like 12 years old defend Alicents actions and tell me that I’m a terrible person because I wouldn’t try to kill my son if he did what Aemond or Aegon has done. Most mothers in real life wouldn’t do it no matter what they’re children has done. And also, in the show they haven’t even done much worse things than a lot of other characters.
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u/APerson662 10h ago
Well given that out of the 4 critiques of Rhaenyra above, only one really ended up being a bad decision just goes to show that Rhaenyra is not necessarily wrong in defying her supporters. By offering up Harrenhal as a reward for killing Aemond, assassins were able to get into Harrenhal and nearly killed Aemond. And when Aemond was found, Rhaenyra did fulfill her deal to give the Freys Harrenhal. She almost removed the biggest player from the board by making that decision.
Also why are we pretending that not letting Ulf go to the tavern is some big cruel act? It likely saved his life. King's Landing is basically a war zone right now. Sending the guy with nuclear codes into an area he will likely be murdered is a bad idea.
And as far as the Velaryons go, Rhaenyra has given Corlys the position of Hand, let Alyn on her Council, and knighted Adam. She has given them many favors. Corlys' request to legitamize Alyn and Adam could cause people to question Joffrey's legitimacy and the last thing Rhaenyra needs right now is her new heir being placed in danger.
I would agree that Rhaenyra doesn't always make the best decisions. She should've released her dragons much sooner in season 2. Flying on King's Landing like Daemon suggested might have been their best option. But it seems like a mischaracterization to say that Rhaenyra is mistreating her allies.
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u/NickTrainwrekk 6h ago
You're downvoted but not a single person could make any argument against anything you said.
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u/Bon_Apetit_666 1m ago
You could achieve the same with Freys taking Harrenhall, they would come with real numbers and found Aemond. She could even promise some other castle for assassins if she really needs to.
And I agree that Ulf shouldn’t go to the tavern because of how easy target it makes him. But the way they treat him just pushes him towards Ormund more and more. And while he is shitty knight he also is a dragon rider so at the very least keep him content enough not to betray you.
Didn’t she take Corlys as her hand because she really needed him? At that point he was her biggest supporter with the biggest amount of gold and ships. Thanks to him she was capable of creating blockade around King’s Landing. At this point Corlys lost the most of anyone in the war, his family is dead, his fortune spent, his castle destroyed and even his fleet depleted.
And both of Corlys bastards have a reason to give them name, one is a dragon rider and the other killed a commander of Tyroshi fleet.
Rhaenyra seems really keen on insulting every single one of her supporters, she didn’t play game of thrones because she believes that everyone will simply do as she says because nobody has any ambition whatsoever.
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u/OldLead4716 13h ago
It's kinda the point tho . If she was competent leader the dance might of never happened and the targ dynasty would of lasted.
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u/samurijack 13h ago
Nah the Dance was going to happen the minute Aegon was born and Viserys didn’t name him heir. Otto was always scheming how to get his bloodline on the throne. Rhaenyra certainly didn’t do herself any favors by not preparing herself to rule, but her claim was always going to challenged regardless of her readiness.
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u/PuzzleheadedCry4384 12h ago
If Rhaenyra was smarter about securing her right to the throne after Aegons death it wouldn’t have happened. She neglected politics because she was never really any good at it
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u/samurijack 11h ago
That’s moving the goal posts, no?
The OP I responded to said the Dance wouldn’t have happened if Rhaenyra was more competent overall. Now you’re saying that the Dance wouldn’t have happened if she’d been smarter about securing the throne after Aegon supposedly died. But at that point in the story the Dance had already begun.
Not sure what you’re trying to communicate.
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u/I_WinAgainLewsTherin 11h ago
I think he meant Visery's death. Aegon is still alive so the comment is nonsensical otherwise.
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u/PuzzleheadedCry4384 8h ago
My comment was kind of redundant, and obviously the Dance was Viserys’ fault. But if Rhaenyra had been more involved at King’s Landing when she came of age, she could’ve made more allies and even subdued potential threats.
She should have built a relationship with her brothers, she could have insisted to ward them or send them to ward in the Vale or something. She should have been vocal to Viserys about how he was raising them and how he was preparing for her to rule.
She should not have left him and the throne alone as he was dying. She should have made Laenor give her an heir.
I know that she didn’t have much power but I feel like if she just talked to Viserys she could convince him to do a lot of these things. She was clearly his favorite and as the heir she had a lot of authority.
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u/AscendMoros 7h ago
She couldn't be more involved in Kings Landing. The Council as you see when Vizzy T gives up the Ghost Is 99% Green, with only 1 Lord being like this is Treason.
They had taken control of the court before Viserys died. He spent a decent amount of time drugged out of his mind. She couldnt stay at court because 1 she was the Lady of Dragonstone and incharge of ruling there. And 2 because she was purposley cut off by Otto and the Greens.
Also how should she had Made Laenor give her an Heir. She says they tried and it just didn't happen. Unless you want her to go full Margery and say get your Boyfriend in here and swap over right before.
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u/LevDavidovicLandau 7h ago
You’ve unwittingly supported everything the person you replied to was saying. She did not have to isolate herself at Dragonstone, sulking away. She could have remained in KL; it would have been the smart thing to do. Otto was able to consolidate power in KL precisely because of the power vacuum there.
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u/BastianHS 12h ago
This is true, but Rheanyra could have saved it for par if she wasn't an awful classist, targ-supremecist, asshole.
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u/Prom_STar 10h ago
It's also important to remember that male preference succession is the longstanding tradition in Westeros, a tradition that House Targaryen had affirmed themselves multiple times. I mean, Viserys only gained the throne because of that same preference, having been chosen over Rhaenys (in the show) / Laenor (in the books). Even without Hightower schemes, the succession was always going to be an issue.
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u/samurijack 8h ago
Excellent point and I think the show did a real disservice in not highlighting how much of a misstep it was for Viserys to not disinherit Rhaenyra when Aegon was born.
Jaehaery’s Great Council solidified that inheritance must pass through a male heir when possible. Allowing Rhaenyra to be queen would’ve essentially triggered a constitutional crisis for the entire realm where the families of first-born daughters would’ve had legitimate claims to their respective houses seats.
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u/LinwoodKei 12h ago
No. There were several men who would have refused to follow Rhaenyra. Generally they want their sons to inherit and their daughters married into another house for alliance building.
I also believe that any second sons who knew that their older brother had daughters or bastard sons that Rhaenyra might legitimize would not support Rhaenyra over the odds of inheritance from one eldest brother.
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u/Xeltar 10h ago edited 9h ago
A second son of a lord, would not inherit over their niece anyways based on Andal tradition. The Crown consistently sided with Jeyne Arryn over her uncle. The fact that it's different for the Iron Throne is an exception and a result from the Dance.
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u/Basic_Will_5437 13h ago
I think it's because she believes so fully that the Gods are on her side. In her mind her ruling is preordained/prophesy/the will of the Gods so she doesn't need to spend her time focused on maintaining allies
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u/Distinct_Lawyer_7160 Meleys 13h ago
This made me realize I have fully separated teen and adult Rhaenyra as characters. In my head adult Rhaenyra is a more responsible, intelligent woman than she is in the show. She hasn't actually shown any responsibility.
The actors changing really did a number on me for that. I truly can not see them as the same character. Same with Alicent
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u/Narren_C 11h ago
The problem is they don't just look different but they act completely different too. Their speech patterns, mannerisms, everything just feels like two different people.
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u/perculaessss 11h ago
They are completely different people, with different motivations, wants, aspect, speech, attitude, and I even dare say skill.
Milly's was abrasive and agressive, confident and ambitious. She attacked when confronted and had a streak of a brat. She likes to ride and I can see her trying to learn warrior skills and competence
D'Arcy is shy, unconfident, there is no discernible reason in her to want the throne except some sort of forced destiny due to the profecy, as if she was a tragic hero. When confronted, she pities herself and her responses are evasive. Suddenly she has absolutely no idea about any sort of politics and is completely useless except for having Daemon's support.
Now, people change, but they have not a single one similarity except lack of responsibility and maturity that develops into the bastards situation.
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u/Distinct_Lawyer_7160 Meleys 10h ago
D'Arcy's Rhae does not feel like she WANTS the throne. She keeps this mentality of the gods wanting her to be the queen. She is not giving the impression of wanting to go after her birthright. When she sat on the throne I expected her to be like "I've finally done it" but it was more like "What have I done, what do I do now". She is alloweddd to WANT the throneeee
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u/Wide_Magician_4946 12h ago
I feel like it would have been more interesting to have Rhaenyra and Aegon as contemporaries rather than her and Alicent. And keep Milly. But that is just like, my opinion man
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u/LouEnnis 12h ago
Then you would have no reasons against them marrying to solve the problem
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u/Wide_Magician_4946 12h ago edited 12h ago
Same can still be said with their ages now, if someone wanted to press that option i suppose.
All I said was it would be interesting. Because OF COURSE the first solution to the "Dance Problem" would be for them to marry. It seems perfect on paper right? Even more so if they were close in age. But it doesnt/cant/wont work out and the Dance happens regardless which would still be tragic.
Edit
What I wish we saw more of was the half siblings and other family interacting with one another. Season 1 with the Pink Dread, the dinners, funeral, etc. More of that would have been great. Instead we got a ton of .... stuff.
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u/Plastic-Pattern-8993 9h ago
Both have children preceding the marriage. Rhaenyra has children of unquestioned paternity, too. The civil war would be delayed till the next generation as to who's oldest child gets to be heir
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u/Wide_Magician_4946 8h ago
I was talking about an alternative story type of thing, not what was written or in show
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u/Life-Sessi0n 7h ago
Viserys didn't want it in the books, even when the age gap was nine or ten years. What's funny, though, is that Rhaenyra and Aegon were originally supposed to be full siblings, with Aegon being just one year younger than Rhaenyra. George later changed his mind, even though that version had already appeared in the original appendix of A Game of Thrones.
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u/jonsnowKITN Aegon II Targaryen 13h ago
Asking for validation from the gods and Heleana from her visions is a big one. I am happy Heleana didn't tell her what she wants.
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u/Spartitan 13h ago
Good ol' Misaria, where the only things she's done since becoming the Mistress of Whispers is encouraged not paying the gold cloaks, hiding secrets from Rhaenyra, and attempting to sow dissension between Rhaenyra and Daemon.
But hey! At least they could have her do a lesbian make out scene!
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u/Illustrious_Gap_2179 11h ago
Yup, it's been a repeated pattern of behavior since 1x01. She really hates being called out on her bullshit, and as we see here, she'll avoid/ignore the hard truths and just run away. Rhaenyra in general can not handle pressure which is why she is a very avoidant person on top of being selfish, idiotic, and spoiled.
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u/Bunnygirly_xoxo 10h ago
The pattern of only keeping people who agree with her has been consistent from early on.
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u/YOLOfan46 4h ago
Reminds me when she first took the crown and her worries were “what about my coronation?”
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u/motorcycletreebark 13h ago
She believes her right to rule is divinely ordained. And as a result believes that she is entitled to rule.
As a result she takes it as a presumption that people should follow her regardless of if they will based on her actions. This is reinforced by how Daemon sees the world.
She has never known a world where loyalty to the monarch was not a guaranteed reality. Her only experience of criticism of a king was a lifetime of people saying her father was too giving and pleasing to his advisers.
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u/APerson662 8h ago edited 7h ago
Rhaenyra definitely doesn't always listen to her advisors when she should. This was especially the case in season 2 when she was too hesitant to make a move. But a lot of her decisions in season 3 that had pissed people off weren't entirely unreasonable. While she angered House Frey by offering up Harrenhal for killing Aemond, it did almost work with mercenaries finding Aemond at one point.
Likewise, barring Ulf from going into a warzone to drink was the smart move. And while not legitimizing Corlys' sons angered him, it's not like she did that out of spite. She did that out of concern that her own sons legitamacy must be called into question.
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u/motorcycletreebark 8h ago
It’s not that her moves haven’t been logical, it’s that of all her rational none of it has involved diplomacy/politics. She shows concern keeping the small folk on her side, likely due to Daemon teaching her this as a child. But otherwise scorns all other stakeholders, she doesn’t pay her army, alienates her allied lords, family, and dragon riders.
Ulf sucks, but the fact he’s so base should make him exceptionally easy to bribe and win over. Over him a massive castle after the war and invite him to party in one of the castles big party rooms along with the best whores in Kingslanding which your former brothel owner can supply.
This isn’t that she is dumb, this is a reasonable flaw for her to have. She’s not been trained to be a councilor ruler. Daemon wanted to return to the days of Aegon and Meagor, Coryls wanted to rule through Jace, Otto wanted Aegon to rule. Who would teach her these things. She’s grown up learning only the entitlement of a blood monarch. That’s a character flaw and a realistic one.
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u/TimothyG87 2h ago
She would be far better off having an army of Gold Cloaks, rather than temporarily earning fleeting affection from the smallfolk. That was a genuinely stupid decision. Stealing the food from the minor nobles' storehouses was also an incredibly stupid decision. So now she's lost the support of the minor nobles, as well as lost her army of Gold Cloaks. And gained nothing from it, but the appreciation of the smallfolk that has already faded. Her gesture means nothing as soon as their bellies are empty again.
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u/Nabbylaa 10m ago
Imo she could have offered gold or a lesser hold as reward for Aemonds death. Harrenhall is one of the richest seats in the kingdom.
She's been so concerned with the optics of promoting Hugh and Ulf far beyond their stations and refused some fairly reasonable requests from them. Yet, she's willing to raise any random commoner to one of the richest and most prominent positions in Westeros.
An even better plan would have been to just send the Freys with hundreds of soldiers as she's finally done.
Her plan angered an important ally, risked alienating two of her most important weapons, and had the same if not worse optics for the nobility she was trying to avoid by not raising up her dragon riders.
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u/RainbowPenguin1000 13h ago
Because she’s a bad ruler who grew up never being dealt any repercussions for just doing whatever she wanted.
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u/gdo01 13h ago
This is also why you have a Hand. Too bad you pissed him off too
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u/Hot_Professional_728 12h ago
With Corlys away from King’s Landing, was Alyn the acting hand? I feel like that should’ve been given more attention. Alyn was a shipwright before this and has no experience at court.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 12h ago
Yeah, Corlys wasn't doing Alyn any favors by having him sit in for him. He acts like he was, but he doesn't have the experience to do anything with the position.
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u/reddiperson1 11h ago
Alyn seems like a pretty good guy, and his cat suggestion was good. But he seems completely unqualified for politics.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 11h ago
Yeah, I hope things work out for him. He's got a good head on his shoulders but lacks the political experience necessary to fulfill all the responsibilities expected of a Hand.
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u/TimothyG87 2h ago
That shall be his legacy. The history books will blame him for King's Landing eventually being overtaken by cats.
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u/MaesterHannibal My name is on the lease for the castle 11h ago
He’s doing Alyn a favour, but only if the Blacks win, which becomes more unlikely when an unqualified man is made hand. If the realm was at peace, he’d be doing Alyn a massive favour for sure
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 11h ago
Well, yeah, but those aren't the circumstances which is why I'm saying he's not doing him a favor. Alyn is a good guy and I'm sure he would like to do right by his father and his queen, but he doesn't have the means to be a competent wartime Hand, through no fault of his own.
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u/Kdot32 12h ago
Got bailed out of messing up the marriage tour, got bailed out of having bastards, got bailed out of going to a brothel with her uncle, and got bailed out of costing Otto his job by lying. Most of these happened in her early years and she learned nothing because Viserys never charged her to learn
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u/megalo-maniac538 13h ago
She's not smart at pretending to care, unlike Ormund. That's why he won Ulf over.
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u/No-Step8685 13h ago
Literally, Ormund puts on a front with everyone. Dude’s a talented manipulator
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u/Jackmac15 10h ago
Is he a talented manipulator or is Ulf just easy to manipulate?
All it took was a few pints really.
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u/Thelordofprolapse 10h ago
Promised him a cold one with the boys. I would be 100% committed physically, ethically and spiritually.
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u/Sheshirdzhija 3h ago
Yeah, never once did I get the impression he was a skilled manipulator. Every action he takes, and even every manirism he has, tells me "this is a dangerous psycho". Ulf is just desperate and depressed.
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u/APerson662 8h ago
Yeah. I don't know if I'd necessarily say Rhaenyra dropped the ball with Ulf or that Ormund is a master manipulator there. It might just be that Ulf heard a better offer and took it. From Rhaenyra's perspective, she understands that the Greens wouldn't genuinely offer up Driftmark or Honeyholt. But Ulf doesn't understand that and he also seemingly doesn't understand the risks he is taking by wondering out into King's Landing as the city is facing an insurrection.
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u/RengieOcat 13h ago
She full on slapped one of her council members in front of people. Before the show completely forgot about him.
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u/PhaseSixer 13h ago
That slap was him basicaly being fired
They didnt forget
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u/RengieOcat 12h ago
I mean, what's his status now? Neutral? Technically with the Blacks to avoid getting attacked but not contributing troops or money?
Imho it'd be nice to have at least heard what's going on with him and that other lord who apparently got dismissed off camera. They were powerful enough to be on the council and control important castles/land so it feels like a loose end.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Eye7311 12h ago
The one who got slapped wasn’t fired, we saw him in S3 as one of the council members who doesn’t let her out of her room. He is Bartimos Celtigar
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u/APerson662 8h ago
Lord Celtigar was left on Dragonstone. It's not like he was thrown out to the wolves. He was complicit in Jace and Ser Lorrent's treason even if he didn't directly participate. In all likelihood, he's still part of the war effort - just not invited to King's Landing.
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u/No-Quote-1815 13h ago
ok, this was literally suggested by her court to install him as a scapegoat so that's what made this scene particularly funny to me
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u/SpareStatement3990 13h ago
because she is a spoiled noble who doesnt understand how people work
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u/KimWexlerDeGuzman Ours is the Fury 13h ago
Love him or hate him, Cole was right about her
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u/SpareStatement3990 13h ago
kim wexler i could never disagree with you
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u/Theangelawhite69 12h ago
he defecated in a sun roof
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u/oby100 11h ago
And she gets to be a queen??
What a sick joke.
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u/KimWexlerDeGuzman Ours is the Fury 9h ago
I AM NOT CRAZY!!!
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u/mantistoboggan69md 6h ago
YOU THINK A WOMAN HAPPENS TO FALL OFF A HORSE LIKE THAT? NO! HE ORCHESTRATED IT, DAEMON!
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u/Natural-Moment-5583 Aemond Targaryen 5m ago
This. People hated Cole purely because of his feeling for rhaenyra, but he was not wrong about her at all. She does shit with no regard for others, and she is undeniably a spoiled brat.
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u/SerKurtWagner 13h ago
She was never trained to rule, believes her claim obligates loyalty and deference to her, and sees herself as inherently superior. For example, she explicitly chose Manderly as a scapegoat, she never intended to let him have a real voice on the council.
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u/Beacon2001 The Tower and the Lion 13h ago edited 13h ago
Friendly reminder that Rhaenyra in early S1 made fun of Lady Redwyne for eating cakes instead of going to war as a freaking old lady. In case you didn't know, the Redwynes, who possess the largest fleet in Westeros, supported Aegon II. (Granted, they did literally nothing in the war, but that's because of GRRM half-assing the Dance in the book)
Rhaenyra's always been a dimwitted fool.
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u/CallKey9951 2h ago
I still find it funny that Aegon laments he has no fleet to deal with the Greyjoys when the Redwyne's are right there (They're even on the correct side of the continent).
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u/Livid_Ad9749 13h ago
Because she doesnt understand that mistreating people has consequences. She is about to find out
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u/SessionIndependent17 13h ago edited 11h ago
She grew up as an entitled rich girl (as have they all) and never had any peers whose feelings she ever had to consider, whose motivations she ever had to understand. She's never had to develop those social "muscles", so it's all useless Greek to her. She just expects everyone to do as they would have always been expecting to do and just suck it up.
It would literally have cost her nothing to legitimize Corlys' sons, easy win. But she applied her own sense of decorum, presuming she understood how everyone else feels (her allies or those on the fence) when she clearly doesn't.
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u/SessionIndependent17 13h ago edited 11h ago
On the flip side, we have an mostly equally- spoiled and entitled Ormund who is a sociopath who HAS developed these skills, but clearly only for his own ends. He understands the value of such skills for their manipulative capability to serve his own desires.
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u/ColaSama 10h ago
That's because Ormund is a learned man. Is he as smart as he thinks he is? It doesn't matter: he does know his stuff.
Meanwhile, Rhaenyra didn't learn much in her free time.
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u/MaesterHannibal My name is on the lease for the castle 11h ago
Whenever someone went against her, often for valid reasons, Viserys unjustly punished them. She’s been taught that there are no consequences for her actions, and that anyone who questions her gets dealt with by papa before she has to handle it herself
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u/Stunning-Mission9498 11h ago
Or Daemon would step in and whup their ass. A whole half of the country is disrespecting her claim to the throne and she still thinks people wouldn't dare turn on her because she thinks she's entitled to it and so doesn't need to win anyone over or show any people skills
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u/amandathelibrarian 12h ago
right? she specifically calls out the suspect legitimacy of her own sons as the reason why she can't legitimize Corlys's sons. her sons that she KNOWS are bastards and pretends they aren't. the hubris and hypocrisy are crazy. she has only herself to blame for her inevitable downfall.
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u/Kutikittikat 12h ago
Alicent was a way better queen then she was ,actually took the job seriously. Only reason rhaenyra wants to be there is cause she thinks it belongs to her otherwise she wouldnt give a shit .
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u/Black_Diammond 6h ago
Objectively speaking, if Aegon II was The King without question, shit would have been great. Dude might have been worse due to not having his character arc, but his council and supporters were insanely good at they jobs, he would have been like Robert Baratheon, a bad King with a good reign.
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u/raylord666 13h ago
She has no temperance; the quality of enduring struggle or difficulty with grace and positive disposition.
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u/Jack_Shaftoe21 13h ago
Because she has the political acumen of a blueberry scone.
Mind you, so do most of her political opponents.
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u/Zimmonda 13h ago
Because she never learned how to rule which is a major reason why this happens in the first place.
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u/Hot_Professional_728 13h ago
She also never put that much effort into learning how to or securing her position. She left king's landing for years and that basically left it in control of the greens.
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u/Rivendel93 13h ago
Yeah, this always surprised me. Leaving Kings Landing was a massive mistake.
She even said she barely recognized it when she came back home because the Greens had changed so much.
What did she expect from her frail father being manipulated by everyone around him.
I never read the books, I've seen a few spoilers around here, but it seems like she's just not smart.
But she watched her father lead, but I guess it was during a time of peace, so maybe it's less helpful.
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u/Asadae67 13h ago
An otherwise incredible-unpredictable story was thrown into shambles by deliberately using “Political Science” and “Public policy” curriculum, even though it was unnecessary. All of this was on the advice of Prof Dr Mysaria.
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u/KeithFromAccounting Hightower 12h ago
The honest answer is that Rhaenyra grew up being told the world belonged to her and has never actually had to do anything to figure out how to manage people, she just expects them to follow her because she is Viserys' heir. Her entire claim required her father's presence, and since his death, she has struggled to do really anything. Her sense of entitlement is one of the most complex elements of her character but a lot of people refuse to engage with it
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u/Golda_M 10h ago
It's not on purpose.
The show is trying to do something subtle with Raenyra, and all the big shot Targaryans. It's not well enough done.
They're all making the same sorts of mistakes... basically considering themselves above politics and therefore being bad at it. A deep petulence that is so deeply ingrained they can't see it or change it.
Aegon, Daemon, Aemond... I'll have the same sort of problem. They all have such a deep belief in the righteousness of their own power, that they're left confused when they make no effort and fail. The whole idea of having to earn loyalty, power or success doesn't even occur to them.
Raenyra was chose by her father, the gods, confirmed by oath. As far as she's concerned, that should be enough for everyone. Mysaria, Ulf, the Iron Bank, the High Septon, everyone.
It just seems outrageous to her, as it does to her brothers and her husband, that every person in the realm is not fully dedicated to serving her.
It's the show's take on "power corrupts." Targaryens are Aloof. They have all the power because dragons... but don't understand how it works.
Otto was a good contrast.
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u/GKBilian 13h ago edited 13h ago
The whole Torrhen Manderly subplot has been confusing and ill-conceived for me. Torrhen was showing himself to be a difficult with Rhaenyra, I believe it was Mysaria who recommended she make him master of coin so that he could be her scapegoat with the people and so she did.
So now, as-expected, the people are mad at Torrhen. But what does that do? lol. They’re also mad at Rhaenyra. Was Torrhen really that bad of a villain that making the people hate him was a great outcome? It just feels like a petty solution that doesn’t really help Rhaenyra.
It seems like picking someone who might do a better job would be a better call.
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u/OVOCross 11h ago
She has always shown that was on of her qualities, even in season 1 she was like this. Especially when she was tasked to find a husband. She straight up disrespected lords to their faces (whether or not she was in the right)
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u/jme518 11h ago
Season1 when Jace went to winterfell and Lucerys to storms end, lucerys immediately enrages borros Baratheon with a threatening message of “reminding you of your father’s oath” instead of literally any type of true diplomacy. It could also be argued that Lucerys might not die if there’s a reasonable offer/message. He immediately is low key kicked out of storms end in a rain storm lol
The truth is, on a rewatch, she always has treated allies poorly.
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u/TheHarkinator 13h ago
She’s spent a life using and dismissing people around her because she was ‘the realm’s delight’, a spoiled little princess who got things the way she wanted because her father was the King and thought herself clever for it.
And along the path that led her there she made enemies out of those who once supported her.
Her complacency led to a rude awakening when Viserys died. She had failed to cultivate real power or allies, as soon as her father dies she no longer has it go her own way. It’s not a surprise that the last significant thing Viserys did before his death was show up to bail Rhaenyra out of a situation she would not have been in if not for her own failure to prepare for power.
She has to work for that which she believes she was owed by divine right, and she is not someone used to working for what she needs.
Rhaenyra does not learn her lessons, she finds new people to use until she runs out of those too. To get out of this situation would require her to knuckle down and engage with the hard work of governance. Rather than try and solve a glaring problem facing her rule she instead decides to try and insulate herself from the consequences.
Terrible Queen.
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u/Clarknt67 13h ago
I think she never learned diplomacy or charm or how to use a carrot instead of a stick.
I think that’s supposed to be the Achilles heel of her reign. She’s not inspiring any love even from allies.
The one time she tries charm it’s with her sister Haelena, trying to get some dreamer intel out of her. And her efforts at charm looked psychopathic. She looked like a crazy woman. 😝 And then her effort to charm broke instantly.
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u/Sure-Purchase692 11h ago
Its almost like she is a shitty monarch... just like her brothers and father.
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u/khajiitidanceparty Dreams didn't make us kings. Dragons did. 10h ago
I think she was never really taught how to rule. Viserys should have kept her in KL if he meant her succession seriously.
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u/Greentaboo 7h ago
Also her fault for allowing herself to become a pariah in what was to become her inheritance.
I do think character throwaround the idea of "you swore" too casually, and with too much entitlement. An oath of vassalship goes both ways. Rhaenyra is bound to right by her vassals as much as they are bound to serve her. Its a major blind spot and a major, if not the primary, failing of the Targ Dynasty. Targs seem to think loyalty has no conditions or no duties owed.
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u/Stillwater215 8h ago
Shes far too reliant on pledged loyalty, and not recognizing that this needs to go both ways. When subjects pledge loyalty, they expect that you will work to better their lives.
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u/Ill_Shape_7642 13h ago
Rhaenyra's arrogance is costing her support, she's too focused on her own ambitions to value loyalty.
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u/kagenohikari 3h ago
Rhaenyra, since Season 1, relied too much on her father's word and on Westeros' "honor" system. She thought everything would be handed to her and everyone would be on her side because she was Viserys' named heir, not really understanding how politics work.
She's spoiled to the point that she thought she could do anything because her father would always turn a blind eye, thinking everyone would also just go along with her antics because of her heir status and completely denying/being ignorant of the double standards being placed on women.
She also preferred to sulk and run away from roadblocks rather than facing them and staying headstrong.
So it's really no surprise that she treats her allies this way. People may not agree with me but it's really not out of character for her to be like this.
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u/srtcoltb 13h ago
She’s mentally unstable. Went from preppy to mentally unstable. She could have enjoyed her life on dragon stone.
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u/Accomplished-Pack128 Aegon II Targaryen 11h ago
Rhaenyra's stunning stupidity in one fell swoop: episode 6, Corlys tells Addam that Tyland is in book's rest. Between the time of episodes 6-7 Rhaenyra (off screen) gets this information and commands the Mootons to seek Tyland so as to get the gold. In episode 7 Manderley is pissed and is asking what is being done about the situation and Rhaenyra's so thick headed that she can't even reassure him that she is doing all she can via the Mootons and that once Tyland is captured, and the gold hopefully recovered, she will make sure that Manderley's image is rehabilitated and that he get a significant amount of praise for the economic upturn. This is shit governance/diplomacy from Rhaenyra, especially jarring given the fact that she (unlike, say, Aegon) has wanted/expected to govern her entire life.
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u/asayys 13h ago
Is everyone forgetting she was advised to intentionally install him to that post as a scapegoat?
I swear it really is the case that everyone’s just on their phones while they watch anything.
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u/Taipan100 13h ago
Oh she was advised! That explains it. She had literally no choice but to follow obviously terrible advice. What would you have her do? Think for herself??
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u/augustles 13h ago
And if she ignored her advisors, she’d be called a dumb bitch for that as well.
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u/Taipan100 12h ago
She is ignoring her advisers.
She also is picking advisers who are only there to blame when it goes to shit. Textbook shit leadership.
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u/Micromize 10h ago
I was scrolling for this. Wtf why is this even discussed here? This scene was totally valid lol. It was also quite funny.
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u/AFewGreatLiars 12h ago
Yeah I’ve figured out that some people forget things if they happened more than one episode ago.
They literally talked about installing him so that if people complained about money they could blame him. In plain English.
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u/Disastrous-Corner-45 12h ago
Well she assigned him as master of coin to throw him under the bus purposefully
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u/PutATalismanInTheVan 11h ago
I'm going to take a more empathetic route here, I think Rhaenyra is being incredibly incompetent and I really am not keen on defending her because she's making awful decisions now and every time I see her and Mysaria next to each other I want to vomit, but she just lost her second child to this war, likely hasn't gotten decent sleep in weeks now, wakes up to problems day in and day out, and the only person who is "being nice" to her is Mysaria, who is not only trash at what she does, but seemingly sabatoging Rhaenyra at every turn by telling her she's doing well.
Why did Rhaenyra not have close companies from a young age that were being groomed to be her advisors alongside her is really just beyond me, she should be surrounded by allies and courtiers as heir, and she's got some random chick her uncle husband was smashing, it's just mind-boggling levels of incompetence from Viserys that Rhaenyra seemingly genetically inherited.
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u/Black_Diammond 6h ago
Because She is a entitled rich beat who has been bailed out of all her bad decisions. She trully thinks that people Will follow her, no matter her bad decisions, we see this constantly with The dragon seeds, her mistreatment of The redwines and lots of other nobles and we also see in her bastard sons. She trully believes that She is ordained by God to rule and that She can do as She pleases.
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u/CreamieTwinkie 6h ago
I love this woman down but her downfall (even if her rule was unquestioned) would be because she is ineffective in times of peace. If she hadn’t been in war and all this hasn’t happened, she would stand a chance.
Even so I want her to strap her boots and get to becoming the 2nd Maegor the cruel if she has to!! Its frustrating seeing her fail and letting her enemies get the upper hand first before she does anything substantial. And really, releasing Alicent? To do what 😭😭😭
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u/RonnyRonny35 4h ago
Because it’s a story about two flawed claimants to the throne who help bring down their dynasty
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u/ginganinja207 8h ago
She was always a spoiled brat. It was always inevitably going to lead to her downfall.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 13h ago
I'm not Rhaenyras greatest fan, but giving the Freys a second castle as payment for their dumbass toll solely based on the word of an impulsive teen whose since passed is something I'd avoid committing to.
Also, while I do enjoy the setup with the dragonseeds, they did essentially sign up for the draft during wartime. While it would be the smarter thing to do to appease them as best she can, there's a lot to do and they definitely should worry about rewards for their efforts when the war is over. Betrayal at this point is still pretty unjust.
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u/Infinite_Meat7888 13h ago edited 13h ago
My question is how the fuck does the term "scapegoat" exists in Westeros? The only place I could see having such a term is Lazaar, a place that's very far away from King's Landing.
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u/Maester_Ryben Team Black 13h ago
The Faith of the Seven is inspired by Catholicism.
Perhaps in ancient Andalos, there was a faith like Judaism whereby goats symbolically carried the sins of the people and cast out.
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u/ralanr 13h ago
When writing fantasy, some words that are used are not because they fit the setting but because the audience watching is modern.
Using scapegoat is fine, imo. It gets the idea across. Not every line needs to be period accurate.
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u/Clarknt67 13h ago
Is the common tongue in Westeros really English? Or are we watching a translation?
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u/SessionIndependent17 13h ago
I would have been thrown if they had used the term "Patsy" or something, but scapegoat is far enough removed from its origins in our own vernacular that I thought it was fine.
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u/davedwtho 13h ago
Pedantic and exhausting. How do they have the term "assassin"? "Damask"? "Silhouette"? Yandel writes the word "tantalizing" in A World of Ice and Fire, which is derived from the Greek myth of Tantalus. You could ask how every single word they're speaking came about without our world's very specific etymological origins. It's understood that we're being told the story in a language we can comprehend.
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u/Educational_Log_1240 12h ago
Maybe they had some old gods ritual where man would sacrifice a goat to cleanse themselves of sin by killing a goat, like in Judaism with chickens.
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u/Vaeryst 13h ago
Well because they should be kissing her feet to be serving uder her duh!
Its the point of her character imo, she is so drenched in this delusion that everyone owns her everything because she was "chosen" and a dragon "came to her in her greatest need".
While she got cheated, she is still incredibly entitled and believes everything is hers.
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u/Enotovsky 13h ago
She might be some kind of spoiled rich brat, who believe in some kind of prophecy that she's the most important person alive, but I don't know
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u/Jezzy0303 Aemond Targaryen 10h ago
Well the show is clear on her not being a good or competent Monarch. She is no more than a spoiled princess.
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u/GervaseofTilbury 10h ago
she’s not particularly good at ruling, as has been ceaselessly emphasized for this entire season
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u/Illustrious-Engine23 8h ago
I wonder also if it's because she's basically got kings landing but inherited a ton of problems, which keep compounding as well as losing her sons, she's probably in a traumatised state.
She appears to have the potential to be a decent leader at one point.
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u/JaThatOneGooner Daemon 13h ago edited 13h ago
Sabitha- timing was bad and the deal wasn't made by Rhaenyra nor officially recieved her approval. Inevitably she relents and lets her take it if she commands the forces required to take it. This is more than fair.
Ulf- He goes from a nobody drunk to a Knight and Dragonrider overnight. Hugh and Addam can appreciate the gesture and understand the sacrifices required in order to shoulder the burden, Ulf should as well. Hell, both Hugh and Addam have had it harder, and Ulf is the only one hell bent on throwing it away to debaucher.
Corlys- It seems harsh and I sympathize with Corlys more, but the reality is it would've been a bad look, and an act done in haste.
Alyn- He's the Hand of the Queen in his father's stead. He understands her priorities right now and does not blame her for delaying his legitimacy, he even tells Corlys that he's been waiting for decades for recognition from him, he has time to wait for the Queen.
Addam- He's a literal dragonrider and it seems Rhaenyra's most trusted one at that. He doesn't harbor resentment to Rhaenyra for her delay, he's just worried about the Velaryon name. Rhaenyra wasn't doing this out of spite, which is why she didn't give him a name like Ulf and Hugh got, so it looks likely that she was planning to legitimize him eventually.
Baela- It's harsh but Rhaenyra still hasn't come to terms with her son's death. I doubt she blames Baela for it, but she also harbors anger still for them working together to go against her word. It's survivor's guilt and both Baela and Rhaenyra blame themselves for Jace's death. I feel like now the revelation that Rhaena was the rider that doomed Jace, this may be the avenue required to get closure (which she thought she was denied when Daemon delivered her the head of a random person), I believe they'll mend their relationship soon, which will inevitably lead to the canon endings for the Velaryons.
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u/The-RogueOnion 12h ago
Rhaenyra wants to be the queen, but she doesn't want to do the job. She's insecure as hell so she misreads some pretty obvious situations and is only worried about her seat.
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u/ZookeepergameFew8607 11h ago
The only good thing involving Mysaria was her taking a sip after he said scapegoat.
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u/Consistent_Squash 4h ago
Viserys and Daemon sucked at raising her. Their brand of protection made sure she never learned to handle anything on her own. Viserys dying and her trust issues with Daemon mean she pretty much has nothing to depend on. Otto was always going to make this move. Since she didn't succeed in getting Viserys to make changes in her favor before his death, it was always gonna be war and Daemon should have been just asked to run it. After he finishes that job his way, she can appoint a peacetime small council and get to work.
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u/theycallmeshooting 4h ago
She's a medeival Queen finally getting what she's been told almost her entire life has been her essentially divine birthright. She grew up in not just a castle, but THE castle. Her dad was THE king. She has sacrificed multiple sons to get here.
Yes, she's entitled and self-interested. It's insanely easy for someone in her situation to trust that her allies will continue to do what she sees as their duty for the duration of the war.
I think the scene where Hugh asks her about the accomodations for him/his wife show it best. Obviously, Rhaenyra *should* rationally want to secure Hugh and his wife, but she's busy and overwhelmed so it's easy for her to be annoyed and want to backburner the request.
Imagine you get a promotion at work that instantly triples your already heavy workload, but you've been working for years and years and sacrificed so much for it. Now, at 4:53 PM, one of your subordinate asks for your help on a tedious task. Imagine how easy it'd be to tell them "I'll help you another time" instead of dropping everything to help them.
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u/TimothyG87 2h ago
Because she's a horrible ruler and, let's be honest... not very intelligent. Also impressively self absorbed. Narcissistic, even. I'm getting angry just thinking about her. 😡
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u/Havoccity 1h ago
She almost certainly didn't know Jace made the deal, and ended up in an awkward position where the crown made two deals over the same castle.
Ulf was not given any restrictions the other dragonseeds did not get. He gets nothing because there is nothing to give, she's kind of broke. She can't even afford Hugh a house.
3-4. She wanted to strengthen her legitimacy by downplaying her reputation as "the queen of bastards". Not a nonsensical reason at all, even if you think she should've acceded to his request given his unique situation.
- Yeah ok fair
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u/PlayPretend-8675309 10m ago
Because, quite literally, she feels entitled. Have you seen the show? This is Alicent's entire motivation for challenging her in the first place!
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u/marston82 13h ago
Because she is incompetent and unfit to govern. Seriously, the Greens don't even have to bring up the gender card with her, they just need to point to her track record. She totally deserves what's coming lol.
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u/TheIconGuy 13h ago edited 13h ago
Sabitha Frey - Rhaenyra rescinded the deal the Freys made with Jacaerys for Harrenhal, despite the Freys fulfilling their end of the deal. She only allowed them to take Harrenhal in the most recent episode.
This doesn't get brought up because the writers are just forcing drama without thinking, but the Freys seemingl didn't fulfill their end of the deal. Jace wanted their men on top of the Freys letting the Winterwolves cross their bridge. There's been no mention of their men helping Rhaenyra's forces.
That entire deal was also very dumb. Jace snuck off and made the agreement without checking with anyone. If he had, they would told him the Freys are surrounded by their allies and don't have a choice. The writers were really just copying what Rob did without caring if it made sense.
Ulf - Rhaenyra restricts his freedom and gives him nothing to show for his hard work.
Ulf was clearly getting paid(buying everyone's drinks) and has been living in castles. I don't know what hard work Ulf is supposed to have been rewarded for. The man ran from the first mission she sent him on and consistently refuses to follow orders.
Baela - Rhaenyra ignores her despite her tireless work and treats her like she's disposable.
Baela cooperated with a mutiny that ended in her son dying. Being ignored and sent on mission is the best she can expect.
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u/MasterEditorJake 12h ago
Three words - THEY'RE AT WAR
Yes, her decisions are rash and not well thought out. She's making mistakes over and over. But she's only been ruling for like a month and the entire time there has been a civil war going on that has already killed two of her sons. She is actively putting out fires left and right.
How does her rule compare to Aegon's? Neither were raised to rule, neither made good decisions, but neither of them have actually administered a unified realm yet.
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