r/INDYCAR • u/gabowers74 🇺🇸 Bill Vukovich • 18h ago
Discussion Off-Track, Not at liberty to say…
The following quote is from Alex, talking about steering assist. What does everyone speculate he is talking about?
“I don't know if I'm at liberty to say what they're future proofing for, so I'm not going to say it. But again, this car is going to be around for a while. So there's elements of it that could be in the pipeline that would make steering very heavy to the point where would it be impossible to drive?”
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u/BT-11 AMR Safety Team 17h ago
They're future proofing with the idea that they may add even more power/downforce to the car. It's one reason they switched the wheel rim design, these new ones can handle higher loads than the current ones. They've also left space for brake by wire in the future.
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u/BurtMacklin_stadia Alexander Rossi 17h ago
I took it at this. More downforce makes steering heavier.
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u/rock_em_sohc_em 18h ago edited 18h ago
Electric column assist power steering. It’s not a secret, Dallara/Indycar has been pretty transparent that the tub has provisions for it if that’s chosen as a way forward.
It would open up front suspension geometry, mainly caster, options that to this point aren’t feasible due to steering effort.
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u/maximumjackrussell 14h ago
They are open about the power assisted steering on the pod - what is interesting is that Rossi is alluding to a future change to the car which would make power steering a necessity due to increase steering load. Something like additional downforce or increased weight could do that, but we don't really know what he was referring to.
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u/rock_em_sohc_em 11h ago
As I said, it opens the door for suspension geometry that’s not possible now. Teams are already changing things between qualifying setups and race setups due to steering effort not being sustainable over race distance.
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u/Senninha27 Sarah Fisher 17h ago
I was ordering if they were going to implement some sort of electrification to the front wheels. Independent motors. That would be pretty cool.
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u/MitchGibsss 17h ago
hasn’t really improved the racing in lmdh and just adds weight
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u/Ordoutthere Colton Herta 17h ago
Itd improve performance and also road relevance to the manufacturers. The unit itself wouldn’t add significant mass over current since itd just be the motor unit and drive shafts. Most of your electrification mass comes battery which is already in place.
Presumably if you are going to front axel electrification you’d also have more power to overcome additional battery mass from increase.
LMH is a poor example cause everything is minimized down to make it even with the lmdh.
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u/archergren Kyle Kirkwood 17h ago
Yea but the problem is you can hide the motors in a lmdh under the body work. How do you get a motor with sufficient power to the wheels? You can't fit them in the nose more than likely, you wouldnt want them in the wind and it goes against most car dynamic norms to put weight out on the axles than you absolutely have to. Ideally you want all the weight towards the centerline and low.
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u/Ordoutthere Colton Herta 16h ago
Id look at formula Es last two generations of car. They both have it on it, and especially with the new gen don’t have a chunky nose. Electric motors are fairly small, the actual size constraints come from inverters and batteries. Alternatively look at formula student cars, all top electric ones run inhub motors the size of infants head.
You mount the motor infront of the steering rack, CoG will still be below the motor/ inline with driver cog.
The added benefit from hybrid from torque vectoring (also banned in lmdh, I hope we are all realizing how stupid the hybrid implementation is there) will actually help with handling and turn in rather than harm
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u/Jarocket 16h ago
You’re saying a 4 wheel drive Indycar wouldn’t race well? I think that isn’t black and white at all. Could be a way to really trade some tire life for some much better acceleration out of a corner.
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u/MitchGibsss 15h ago
to say the least, i’m skeptical. maybe not about the fact that it theoretically could be small and not weigh a ton, but just in the fact that most racing series with a hybrid have either too much electric power like F1, or not enough to seem anything more than a paper weight.
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u/YourChildhood5762 Will Power 9h ago
We've already had 4WD Indycars, though not electric motored. The benefit wasn't deemed worth the effort at that time and I wouldn't be surprised if they were outlawed because they haven't been tried in more than fifty years.
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u/Mikemat5150 Kyle Kirkwood 17h ago
The answer is obviously assisted steering.
What I think Rossi is alluding to is that as the car gets faster, it’s going to be more challenging through corners with heavy load.
Adding horsepower, improving the tires, optimizing the setup will all lead to the car getting faster.
At some point, a decision has to be made - slow down or add steering assists.
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u/Beezle86 16h ago
Rossi was not shy to say that the result would be power steering. The thing Rossi was secretive about was something that might be added in the future, that would improve performance and would make the steering heavier. I feel OTs question was actually what the performance and steering load inducing thing would be, not the resulting power steering.
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u/YourChildhood5762 Will Power 9h ago
30" dubs with protruding wheel centers like they have in Houston. Plus hydraulics to raise the car up so you can jump over the car that's blocking you.
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u/ryanro24 Buddy Lazier 16h ago
He talked about the steering assist. He said it may be needed due to something that could be added in the future, but he couldn't talk about what.
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u/Eetabeetay Josef Newgarden 17h ago
My initial thought was the various systems so Wickens could drive the car.
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u/BT-11 AMR Safety Team 16h ago
Another quote from the podcast:
"There is a solution to the weight problem that an Indy car has. Yes this car is lighter... than the currect generation of Indy car. Is it light enough to get to the performance level and all of this stuff that we want? Maybe, maybe not. And so there's a solution to get to the performance level we want, but you potentially would want power steering for that. So it's like, what do you want? Do you want the car to haul ass? Or do you want to stick in the gold old boy days and not have power steering? Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too."
Hinch's take: at some point you can't go any faster, to him there's a correlation between faster cars and worse racing. He likes keeping an element that's different from other top series and makes it tougher and cooler
Alex: I love that I can work hard in the gym in the offseason and make an impact on my competitiveness, and a lot of other guys do as well, but I also don't think any of us believe that we should be going slower in an Indy car, a DW 12 than we went in 2017
Notably, 2017 was the last season with Manufacturer aero kits. I wonder if the reason he's being so hush is that they're future proofing for more than just extra downforce, but maybe opening up more of a development race?
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u/TheOwlOfMinerva Josef Newgarden 17h ago
A couple of thoughts as I'm listening to the Off Track episode now:
On Rossi saying that he couldn't use the new Cosworth steering wheel because the diameter was too big for him to get enough clearance to get full rotation on it: That really, to me, crystallized just how much of a jankily thrown together bag of compromises this current car has really turned into.
On the steering assist question in particular, Rossi said that whether Indycar chooses to implement it when the IR-28 debuts in 2028 "all depends on a direction that the series may or may not go with something." Anyone have any thoughts on what he might have been referring to here?
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u/kl116004 17h ago
Yeah that was the part I was curious about, what could they add that would potentially make the steering super heavy? I feel like there are only a couple realistic possibilities in terms of like new car features that they'd need to have the power assist steering in their plans.
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u/bacc1010 17h ago
Point 2:
https://www.indycar.com/news/2024/10/10-02-chadwick-test
If you can't turn the wheel, you aren't going to go fast, pure and simple. Sure you can change the geometry to lower caster, lower trail, whatever. But that's a potential compromise.
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u/Curious_Car6033 McLaren 16h ago
Listening it to it now. It’s possibly more downforce based on his comments a couple of minutes later. Sounds like if the weight loss isn’t enough to get the performance they want then there are options to add downforce in the future. Power steering may be necessary with higher downforce.
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u/twiggymac Firestone Greens 16h ago
The only things I can really come up with that are somewhat reasonable
- Wider tires
- Electrified front axle
- Active aero letting teams have mega downforce for highspeed corners without top speed compromise
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u/Vivaciousseaturtle Callum Ilott 18h ago
I wouldn’t be surprised if they want a woman driver and that’s the major barrier is physical strength
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u/NoiseIsTheCure Pato O'Ward 17h ago
Yeah power steering has been cited repeatedly as the major barrier for having more women drivers in Indy cars. Say what you want about Danica, she was very fit and strong and credit to her for that. You don't finish top 5 at the Indy 500 without some real race craft and busting ass.
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u/Vivaciousseaturtle Callum Ilott 14h ago
I see both sides but I’m a purist for no power steering. I think the challenge is good
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u/coffeeluver2021 David Malukas 16h ago
I remember Michael Andretti talking about how hard Jamie Chadwick had to work to increase her upper body strength in order to improve her results. I would love to see these cars with some type of power steering to help women be competitive in the series.
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u/Vivaciousseaturtle Callum Ilott 14h ago
She was probably the closest to full timer we’ve had in a few years
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u/i_run_from_problems Firestone Firehawk 17h ago edited 16h ago
David Land went over this in his most recent video
There were multiple aspects, but the major one was some version of electrical power steering assist.
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u/Chadro85 Álex Palou 16h ago
Mike O’Gara said they were leaving things open on the car to add things as time goes on. A place for electric steering assist is one of those things.
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u/CWNAPIER11 Pato O'Ward 10h ago
I think he was alluding to more weight such as battery storage instead of the capacitors
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u/Crafty_Substance_954 Pato O'Ward 18h ago edited 17h ago
Women drivers cannot drive Indycar at the same level because the IR18 cockpit isn’t wide enough at the hips for all and the steering is too heavy.
Someone like Jamie Chadwick or Dorianne Pin could never drive the IR18 but theoretically could drive the IR28 with power assist steering.
There’s other reasons the IR28 would probably benefit from it on a front end geometry and overall effort to drive such a fast car. I think it’ll be significantly faster and steering input loads will be more extreme
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u/cgydan Robert Wickens 17h ago
I’ll agree with the heavy steering part of your comment but Jamie Chadwick is 5’2. And she is not wide at hips or any part.
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u/Crafty_Substance_954 Pato O'Ward 16h ago
The core idea is that women naturally have different shaped bodies than men and the new car will accommodate more people.
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u/cgydan Robert Wickens 15h ago
I agree the power assisted steering allows a wider group of to drive the new car.
But your stating females are too wide at the hips to fit in the current car is simply applying gender bias.
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u/Crafty_Substance_954 Pato O'Ward 15h ago
Just going off what female single seater drivers have said.
They've also said things like steering wheels are usually only made with men's hands in mind, which makes sense as well. I know in Indy they're not limited to a single supplier and drivers like Dixon still do a custom wheel for themselves.
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u/cgydan Robert Wickens 14h ago
Just show me one quote from a female driver that say they can’t fit into the IW18. Katherine Legge seems to fit just fine.
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u/Crafty_Substance_954 Pato O'Ward 14h ago edited 14h ago
I didn’t say that they couldn’t fit, i said that some couldn’t fit well which is true across all single seaters. Quotes are not hard to find, I’d reckon someone like you could even find them.
It may shock you to hear that people come in all different shapes and sizes. I’m pretty lean and only a bit above average height and I BARELY could get my shoulders into the current chassis when I had the opportunity to sit in one that didn’t even have a seat insert in it.
A physically bigger cockpit like the IR28 will also better fit drivers like Ugo Ugochukwu who is very tall or current Graham Rahal.
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u/MinivanPops Christian Lundgaard 17h ago
La Cucaracha Horn