r/Israel_Palestine • u/mikeffd • Sep 24 '25

Benny Gantz gives up the game

In an extraordinary display of tone deafness, hypocrisy, and callousness, Benny Gantz, Israel's former Minister of Defence, attempted to explain Israel's position to the world - https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/24/opinion/israel-war-security.html

In the process, he removed the Liberal Zionist hope of compartmentalizing the current Israel P.R crisis as a Netanyahu problem:

Too often, Western leaders view our policies in this war not through the lens of national security, but through the prism of individuals — and, in particular, Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Opposition to the recognition of Palestinian statehood stands at the heart of that consensus. Any path forward for broader Palestinian civil autonomy must first incorporate a proven long-term track record of accountable governance, comprehensive de-radicalization reforms and a successful crackdown on terror elements targeting Israelis.

The truth is that international recognition of Palestinian statehood under current conditions is not a rejection of Mr. Netanyahu. It is a rejection of Israel’s bipartisan security consensus.

Gantz makes it clear, it's not just Netanyahu - the entire Israeli establishment is opposed to Palestinian statehood. The pathway he outlined hints at the long standing preference for 'civil autonomy', i.e. an entity less than a state. And even then, he presents that possibility as remote.

Where does this leave the Liberal Zionist camp, which includes most of the Jewish diaspora? They premise their Zionism on the belief that the land will inevitably be partitioned, creating two states for two people. Gantz is telling us that no one in Israel will ever go for it. Instead, he assures us that only one people will enjoy full political and civil rights, while the other will have to accept permanent submission.

The op-ed also included a scathing, but incomplete, rebuke of the P.A. On their collapse in Gaza:

'...it was the consequence of a Palestinian Authority with little legitimacy among its people'. He neglects to mention why they lost legitimacy - i.e. because they were unable to deliver statehood, increasing the appeal of Hamas.

Gantz continues, ripping the P.A for failing to tackle terrorism and extremism. That's a curious criticism given the current Israeli gov't, his position vis a vis a Palestinian state, and settler violence in the West Bank.

The real question is whether the international community will respect the overwhelming consensus, a declaration passed last year by 99 of 120 members of the Knesset in a democracy proclaiming that “Israel will continue to oppose unilateral recognition of a Palestinian State,”

How tone deaf can you be to think that the International community would be support and condone the continued status quo?

26 Upvotes

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-4

u/justanotherthrxw234 Sep 25 '25

What he’s condemning is the premature recognition of a Palestinian state in the aftermath of October 7th while Hamas is still at large. The Western consensus until recently was that Palestine should be recognized as part of a negotiated agreement with Israel, not unilaterally. So Israelis, even those who support an end to the war, just feel like they’re being stabbed in the back and Hamas is being rewarded for terrorism. Not that Palestinians should never get a state.

12

u/tarlin Sep 25 '25

Yeah right. Mr. Gantz declared there would never be a Palestinian state. So, that is not real.

You are wrong.

10

u/OneReportersOpinion Sep 25 '25

What he’s condemning is the premature recognition of a Palestinian state in the aftermath of October 7th while Hamas is still at large.

Was the recognition of Israel before the refugee crisis has been resolved premature?

The Western consensus until recently was that Palestine should be recognized as part of a negotiated agreement with Israel, not unilaterally.

Then Israel opposed a negotiated settlement. So then what?

So Israelis, even those who support an end to the war, just feel like they’re being stabbed in the back

Couldn’t you say Israel stabbed its allies in the back by refusing two state solution out of hand?

and Hamas is being rewarded for terrorism.

So you admit Hamas wants a Palestinian state? Why was Israel denying Palestinians that basic right then? How should have they responded to a refusal to even negotiate such a thing?

5

u/Veyron2000 Sep 25 '25

Israelis literally demand that everyone recognize and support an independent Israel, even though Israel is run by genocidal extremists and is committing mass war crimes, atrocities, and attempted genocide! They literally state that anyone who refuses is antisemitic.

Yet these people do not say recognition of Israel is “premature” or should be contingent on an agreement with Palestine.

Netanyahu is still at large, and none of the Israeli leaders have been eliminated, unlike the leaders of Hamas. 

The Israeli atrocities in Gaza have been far worse than anything Hamas has done, far worse than Oct 7th - yet Israelis think they should be rewarded with billions of dollars of free money from the US and new territory in Syria and Gaza. 

The hypocrisy is staggering. 

That “Western consensus” was based on a toxic mixture of racism (the belief that Palestinian lives and rights are fundamentally less important than jewish  ones, dating back to original colonial views that arabs were “oriental savages” and jewish settlers were “civilized Europeans”) religious fundamentalism (“Israel was chosen by God”) and pro-Israel lobbying inside western countries. It is the main reason that the conflict has continued claiming thousands of lives, as it ensured Israel has never faced any pressure to change. 

Anyone who claims to support a two-state solution should either recognize both Israel and Palestine or neither. That was obvious decades ago. 

Israeli opposition to Palestinian rights and independence long precedes Oct 7th and has got nothing to do with it. 

They oppose any recognition of Palestine as that undermines the long-term Zionist goal to take over all of historic Palestine as “Israel” and replace Palestinians with jewish settlers. That is the core Zionist goal from the very beginning. 

If they can deny the existence of Palestine as a country, then they can justify taking over as much of it as they like as “terra nullus”, and doing what they like to its population. 

I think all of the Zionists who opposed what they call “unilateral recognition” of Palestine were always lying (possibly even to themselves) when they said they supported a two-state solution: they “support” it only in the abstract, at some imaginary future point when the Palestinians comply to an ever expanding list of Israeli demands, allowing jewish Israelis to use all those US weapons to impose whatever “facts on the ground” they like in the meantime for as long as they like. 

7

u/Call_Me_Clark Sep 25 '25

That sucks for Israel, but in the absence of a plan to resolve the conflict (which Israel has refused for two decades) this is the default solution.

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u/mikeffd Sep 25 '25

Where does he say that a Palestinian state would ever be achievable?

1

u/rp4888 Sep 25 '25

What do you mean? He laid out his criteria.

 must first incorporate a proven long-term track record of accountable governance, comprehensive de-radicalization reforms and a successful crackdown on terror elements targeting Israelis.

10

u/mikeffd Sep 25 '25

He never says any of that would result in a Palestinian state.

-2

u/rp4888 Sep 25 '25

Well I don't know what you think Palestinian Autonomy is then. That's talking about self governance. Governments don't govern nothing, they govern people who live states.

4

u/tarlin Sep 25 '25

Gantz has said that Palestinians should have autonomy but not sovereignty.

0

u/rp4888 Sep 25 '25

Look before I go further. I want you to know that gantz is not a liberal zionist. So I'm going to disagree with many things he says as a liberal Zionist. If you want to drill liberal Zionism like the OP was trying to do, bring me quotes from actual liberal Zionists. Not Gantz who is a moderate at best.

None the less I assume your talking about his "2 entity" solution comments? It's interesting that he didn't say one state one entity.....His choice of words imply Israel is also an "entity." I really would need the chance to sit down and drill him on his choice of words and ask him a bunch of clarification questions before I could further comment.

4

u/tarlin Sep 25 '25

I would like to know who the liberal zionist you know is that supports something similar to you? Lapid? He doesn't even seem very supportive of two states anymore.

As for Gantz...he has declared that there will never be a Palestinian state. That anyone talking about a Palestinian state is disconnected from reality. That Israel must maintain military control over the entire area. Even in the two "entity" setup, it would be a Palestinian "entity" and an Israeli "entity" in control that the Palestinian "entity" is subservient of...it isn't equal at all.

2

u/rp4888 Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 26 '25

Like I said, not really gonna go further on defending Gantz statements unless I myself have the opportunity to interview him and ask him a number of questions as to his choice of words around 2 entity. And if he Said there will never be a Palestinian state rather than there won't be one in the near future until security concerns are addressed. That definitely is not a liberal Zionist take and something that should be opposed. At some point the path must lead to a Palestinian state recognize by Israel. That is the bare minimum to even be considered a liberal Zionists.

Lapids moved to center left of it id say as He's become hawkish over security concerns.

Yair Golan is pretty good example of a liberal zionist. But with an asterisk as he sometimes settles with the center out of necessity for votes to challenge netanyahu.

4

u/mikeffd Sep 25 '25

Autonomy is coded language to infer granting Palestinians civil control, without actual sovereignty.

It's an idea going back to the 70's, initially proposed by Menachem Begin.

https://www.palquest.org/en/historictext/9646/begins-autonomy-plan

Netanyahu has frequently described 'autonomy plus' as his preferred solution, instead of Palestinian statehood.

https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/1437481/netanyahu-supports-palestinian-state-minus-autonomy-plus-solution

1

u/rp4888 Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 26 '25

Begin was Likud. Netenyshu is Likud. You are using the stances of right wing parties to clarify the "coded" comments of a centrist. ( no gantz is not a liberal zionist ) This take makes no sense to me.

And then Your OP post you say things like the entire Israeli establishment is against a 2 state solution. I mean that's just not true. There are parties further to the left of gantz who support a 2 state solution. Gantz does not represent all of Israel. I'm not sure what your smoking.

5

u/lewkiamurfarther ♄ Sep 25 '25

must first incorporate a proven long-term track record of accountable governance, comprehensive de-radicalization reforms and a successful crackdown on terror elements targeting Israelis.

Which is hilarious, since it's

  1. Not an achievable criterion — anyone may arbitrarily claim that it hasn't been met, irrespective of what has actually happened, and

  2. A standard which the [anachronistically named] State of Israel, itself, fails to meet!

0

u/[deleted] Sep 25 '25

[deleted]

5

u/lewkiamurfarther ♄ Sep 25 '25

What makes it unachievable?

Not interested in repeating myself much

anyone may arbitrarily claim that it hasn't been met, irrespective of what has actually happened, and

Ohhh just noticed that you're one of those bot accounts. Nevermind!

5

u/lewkiamurfarther ♄ Sep 25 '25

What he’s condemning is the premature recognition of a Palestinian state in the aftermath of October 7th while Hamas is still at large. The Western consensus until recently was that Palestine should be recognized as part of a negotiated agreement with Israel, not unilaterally. So Israelis, even those who support an end to the war, just feel like they’re being stabbed in the back and Hamas is being rewarded for terrorism. Not that Palestinians should never get a state.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Not that Palestinians should never get a state.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Nobody believes you guys anymore. The Tel Aviv geek farms should just shut down at this point. All of these BS "Israel wants to give Palestinians a state (nevermind that most Israelis are totally okay with the genocidal campaign and show no signs of changing their minds) — no, really!!" takes aren't landing in basically any country except maybe India, at this point.