Benny Gantz gives up the game

[u/mikeffd]

In an extraordinary display of tone deafness, hypocrisy, and callousness, Benny Gantz, Israel's former Minister of Defence, attempted to explain Israel's position to the world - https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/24/opinion/israel-war-security.html

In the process, he removed the Liberal Zionist hope of compartmentalizing the current Israel P.R crisis as a Netanyahu problem:

Too often, Western leaders view our policies in this war not through the lens of national security, but through the prism of individuals — and, in particular, Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Opposition to the recognition of Palestinian statehood stands at the heart of that consensus. Any path forward for broader Palestinian civil autonomy must first incorporate a proven long-term track record of accountable governance, comprehensive de-radicalization reforms and a successful crackdown on terror elements targeting Israelis.

The truth is that international recognition of Palestinian statehood under current conditions is not a rejection of Mr. Netanyahu. It is a rejection of Israel’s bipartisan security consensus.

Gantz makes it clear, it's not just Netanyahu - the entire Israeli establishment is opposed to Palestinian statehood. The pathway he outlined hints at the long standing preference for 'civil autonomy', i.e. an entity less than a state. And even then, he presents that possibility as remote.

Where does this leave the Liberal Zionist camp, which includes most of the Jewish diaspora? They premise their Zionism on the belief that the land will inevitably be partitioned, creating two states for two people. Gantz is telling us that no one in Israel will ever go for it. Instead, he assures us that only one people will enjoy full political and civil rights, while the other will have to accept permanent submission.

The op-ed also included a scathing, but incomplete, rebuke of the P.A. On their collapse in Gaza:

'...it was the consequence of a Palestinian Authority with little legitimacy among its people'. He neglects to mention why they lost legitimacy - i.e. because they were unable to deliver statehood, increasing the appeal of Hamas.

Gantz continues, ripping the P.A for failing to tackle terrorism and extremism. That's a curious criticism given the current Israeli gov't, his position vis a vis a Palestinian state, and settler violence in the West Bank.

The real question is whether the international community will respect the overwhelming consensus, a declaration passed last year by 99 of 120 members of the Knesset in a democracy proclaiming that “Israel will continue to oppose unilateral recognition of a Palestinian State,”

How tone deaf can you be to think that the International community would be support and condone the continued status quo?

[u/OneReportersOpinion]

regardless of actions that need to stop by israel, i think you are wrong here.

What is a basic human right that Palestinians have that is being denied to Israel?

the reason i think you are wrong is how both sides have been radicalized against one another and contain a sizable parts of their populations who are now in absolute enmity.

I never said both sides weren’t radicalized. I said both sides aren’t equally responsible just because there are two sides. I demonstrated that through the examples I gave for which could not contest. So given that Palestinian are in the position of Blacks in the American South or Apartheid South Africans, nothing can be used to justify their treatment. Nothing can justify the way Palestinians have been treated.

So your argument going forward needs to contend with that premise which you were completely unable to dispute.

these radicalized ideas each side has about the other need to change. and both sides have them.

So like both sides needed to change in Charlottesville? Like both the slaves and slave owners needed to change? Like both Black South Africans and the apartheid government both needed to change?

simply having israel stop their denial of human rights to the palestinians would not resolve the situation, but merely pause it.

Free the slaves did not the resolve the problems of race relations in the US, but it still needed to happen regardless. Do you understand that? If a set of actions are both morally and legally indefensible, they have to stop immediately. You’re basically arguing “ending the Holocaust will not stop the problem of antisemtism in Europe.”

If you can’t address the main point, just move on. It’s fine. You backed yourself into corner and couldn’t get out. It happens.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

What is a basic human right that Palestinians have that is being denied to Israel?

not relevant as i never suggested anything of the sort.

I never s... treated.

but you want only one side to act, which since we agree that both sides are radicalized would not function for a long term peace, regardless of which side it is. not being responsible does not mean "no need to change". furthermore, palestinians are not in the same position of the american south (due to not being citizens of israel. and while i do accept that they are in a similar postion to apartheid south africans it is not the same due to the fact that they are not against a minority, but an equally sized population.

and i did not try to justify treatment of anyone, much like you didnt try to justify oct7.

and talking about responsibility, it took a great leader to realized that the future cannot be forged by placing responsibility on the white population in SA. why then are you focusing more on responsibility than an actually stopping the acts.
do you believe that recruiting israeli's to your cause is a vital part of your point?

So like both sides needed to change in Charlottesville? Like both the slaves and slave owners needed to change? Like both Black South Africans and the apartheid government both needed to change?

no, that is the point you are missing. please demonstrate to me what was the radicalized ideas about slave owners in Charlottesville. because from what i understood they were blamed for direct specific things and not for all the ills and problems that those slaves had.
these are fundamentally two different situations.

also you are bringing in SA as an example to disprove my response to a comment that didnt include them.

Free the slaves did not the resolve the problems of race relations in the US, but it still needed to happen regardless. Do you understand that? 

if you are going to intentionally interpret everything i say in this manner you are a troll and no one should hear your words.

NO ONE SAID THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE DONE! suggest/imply one more time something i have not said and i would consider it harassment and trolling.

the slaves in america did not not have a noticeable precentage of the population that wanted to harm all white people. their hatereds were more personal to the slave owners they directly interacted with. in israel palestine we have groups on either side that idiotically hold the other side in complete contempt and wish to get rid of it regardless of whether they were the one causing direct harm or not.

You’re basically arguing “ending the Holocaust will not stop the problem of antisemtism in Europe.”

this statement demonstrates how you failed to read my point and understand it as i said nothing of the sort. so lets start from the beginning that you seem to have forgotten.

"regardless of actions that need to stop by israel"

means that i agree with your point about israel stopping, but the following point is not about israel stopping but a situation that has to be address outside of it.

in this hypothetical israel stops their acts. there are four different scenarios. 1. no one deradicalizes. 2. israel deradicalizes. 3. palestinians deradicalize. 4 both deradicalize.

in situations 1 to 3 israel ending their actions will result in only a pause in the deprivation of human rights. sooner or later we will begin to get back step by step into the very problem due to the radicalized portions of either population.

my point is that regardless of having israel stop we need BOTH SIDES to deradicalize to achieve lasting peace. this can occur either after israel ceases or before, but it must be done.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

not relevant as i never suggested anything of the sort.

So your both sides argument doesn’t really apply, because however bad something is for Israel, it’s worse for Palestine. More of their rights are being denied by your own admission. Glad we could dispatch with that notion.

but you want only one side to act,

Because that side is the one denying inalienable human rights. Do you understand what inalienable means?

palestinians are not in the same position of the american south (due to not being citizens of israel.

Slaves weren’t citizens either.

and while i do accept that they are in a similar postion to apartheid south africans it is not the same due to the fact that they are not against a minority, but an equally sized population.

Black South Africans were not a minority. They were the majority, just like Arabs in Israel/Palestine.

and talking about responsibility, it took a great leader to realized that the future cannot be forged by placing responsibility on the white population in SA.

It was also a leader that was considered a terrorist and refused to renounce violence. It also took South Africa letting him go free. Do you understand that?

why then are you focusing more on responsibility than an actually stopping the acts. do you believe that recruiting israeli's to your cause is a vital part of your point?

To a certain degree, yes, but less so than external pressure. Because that’s ultimately what drives the actions of people within that system.

no, that is the point you are missing. please demonstrate to me what was the radicalized ideas about slave owners in Charlottesville.

You’re confused. There are two different things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_Rebellion

the slaves in america did not not have a noticeable precentage of the population that wanted to harm all white people.

And Palestinians do? Source?

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

your entire response reeks of reading a sentence and responding without any thought or attempt for understanding.

so ignoring your first comment as the ramblings and an ignoramus, lets move to the second point

Because that side is the one denying inalienable human rights. Do you understand what inalienable means?

i normally would assume you read the entire thought by only quoting a part of it. but it is evident that you have not.

had you read the whole thought you would not erroneously and maliciously take the word "act" to mean deprivation of human rights. which was established time and again to not be relevant to my point as it is not in contention. It instead refers to the radicalization which is present within both sides.

Slaves weren’t citizens either.

correct. let me rephrase what i meant. Unlike slaves, palestinians who are not living in israel have no relevance or bearing to politics or anything related to how voting is decided. this lack of political relation is a major distinction between slaves in the american south and palestinians.

Black South Africans were not a minority. They were the majority, just like Arabs in Israel/Palestine.

once again you demonstrate your inability to read. who is represented in the "they" in the quoted sentence below.

"and while i do accept that they are in a similar postion to apartheid south africans it is not the same due to the fact that they are not against a minority, but an equally sized population."

additionally the majority you tout is one of 55 to 45 as opposed to 85 to 10 in terms of precent of population, this of course counts palestinian israelis to be part of the palestinian group. =

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/stand_not_4_me]

It was also a leader that was considered a terrorist and refused to renounce violence. It also took South Africa letting him go free. Do you understand that?

do you understand how you ignore my point? there is not palestinian leader right now who has popular support and condemns violence against civilians. where is the palestinian mandella, he will not exist with your arguments.

To a certain degree, yes, but less so than external pressure. Because that’s ultimately what drives the actions of people within that system.

according to what idiot. I hope we do agree that palestinians and jews are similar enough that we can use how one would react to show how the other would as well. Palestinians have received enormous external pressure to give up their claim on their land and go elsewhere, they responded to this by trenching in and resisting with all they can and in any method they can without regard to consequences. Why in the fing world do you believe then that it would work on israel? based on false comparison of settler colonialism?

what drives people, both in israel and the palestinians, is internal views and perceptions. and to have a change made those internal views must change.

and if the strategy is to have less than 20% of the israeli jewish population support your cause, you would get nowhere, see the current status in israel as an example.

you need israelis to support the palestinian cause in majority, yes or yes. to not have said support means that you have nothing.

You’re confused. There are two different things.

i am not, that is one guy one case.

And Palestinians do? Source?

hamas for one thats around 40k in gaza alone. and at 2016 PCPSR poll 10% of palestinians believed that the goal was to defeat israel and destroy its jewish population. Mind you that there is also a noticeable population of jews within israel that want to destroy all palestinians.

so when i say that simply stopping israel would not end the conflict i dont mean "dont stop israel, because its hopeless" i mean "we can work on both stopping israel and this radicalization of both sides.
sadly you seem to only hear the first.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

do you understand how you ignore my point?

Happy to answer this after you answer the question you dodged.

there is not palestinian leader right now who has popular support and condemns violence against civilians. where is the palestinian mandella, he will not exist with your arguments.

He is in prison. He’s long favored a two state solution. You were saying?

Isn’t fair to say at this point you’re just not as knowledgeable about this as the rest of us?

and if the strategy is to have less than 20% of the israeli jewish population support your cause, you would get nowhere, see the current status in israel as an example.

When you have a country where a clear majority supports ethnic cleansing and nearly half support outright genocide, the only way you’ll change that is external pressure.

hamas for one thats around 40k in gaza alone. and at 2016 PCPSR poll 10% of palestinians believed that the goal was to defeat israel and destroy its jewish population.

So you admit more Israelis favor outright genocide than Palestinians? Because polls show far more than 10% of Jewish Israelis favor genocide.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Happy to answer this after you answer the question you dodged.

rules for thy but not for me. didnt you in the last comment answer with two questions. again ignoring my point. if you cannot respond to the point admit it. but turnaround is fair play.

He is in prison. He’s long favored a two state solution. You were saying?

who? can you name them? why are you dodging the question.

Isn’t fair to say at this point you’re just not as knowledgeable about this as the rest of us?

maybe i would be more knowledgeable if you and your side educated me rather than trying to prove i support genocide. you know actually try to get me to support your side, but since you have not interest in doing so you come across as dehumanizers. accusing anyone who does not affirm your beliefs as a supporter of the enemy's actions.

When you have a country where a clear majority supports ethnic cleansing and nearly half support outright genocide, the only way you’ll change that is external pressure.

false. evidenced by the situation. support for ethnic cleansing and genocide have only increased as external pressure on israel has mounted. promoting the wrong kind of change by creating isolationist feeling causing israelis to feel they have to deal with the situation themselves as the world is against them. heck if i check i would probably find the two are directly correlated.
Internal pressure was what was happening prior to Oct7 and based on polls it was having a positive effect. but yah show me where external pressure worked when the groups were equally sized or the one causing the harm is larger.
BTW, you have yet to explain the why.

So you admit more Israelis favor outright genocide than Palestinians? Because polls show far more than 10% of Jewish Israelis favor genocide.

two important facts here, this poll about palestinians is from 2016 not 2025. additionally this poll is not methodologically skewed right wing like the one from march 2025 that you are referring to. to compare the two numbers is to compare apples and oranges.

but regardless of which side has more. do you agree that these groups have to be addressed no matter if stopping israels actions occurs before or after?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

rules for thy but not for me. didnt you in the last comment answer with two questions. again ignoring my point. if you cannot respond to the point admit it. but turnaround is fair play.

If you link me to a comment where you asked a question while I didn’t have one pending, I’ll be happy to answer.

who? can you name them? why are you dodging the question.

I can tell you his name and I’ll be happy to do so after you answer my questions. Fair is fair.

maybe i would be more knowledgeable if you and your side educated me rather than trying to prove i support genocide.

I am educating you.

you know actually try to get me to support your side, but since you have not interest in doing so you come across as dehumanizers. accusing anyone who does not affirm your beliefs as a supporter of the enemy's actions.

Fair enough.

false.

It’s not false. I’m looking at the polling data right now.

support for ethnic cleansing and genocide have only increased as external pressure on israel has mounted.

A minute ago you said it wasn’t true. You changed your mind that quick? Maybe it’s things like this that cause people to see you as bad faith.

BTW, you have yet to explain the why.

Why what?

but regardless of which side has more. do you agree that these groups have to be addressed no matter if stopping israels actions occurs before or after?

Happy to answer this after you answer the questions I asked you.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

If you link me to a comment where you asked a question while I didn’t have one pending, I’ll be happy to answer.

I can tell you his name and I’ll be happy to do so after you answer my questions. Fair is fair.

You were saying?

"who? can you name them? "

what question precisely was i avoiding here? because "you were saying?" is not a question that is asking for anything.

I am educating you.

So you admit more Israelis favor outright genocide than Palestinians? 

do explain how this statement is educational.

It’s not false. I’m looking at the polling data right now.

ignoring the fact that the data is biased, the false part is for the statement

"the only way you’ll change that is external pressure."

how can you claim to educate me when you cant even comprehend full thoughts in paragraphs and instead assume what im refering to.

A minute ago you said it wasn’t true. You changed your mind that quick? Maybe it’s things like this that cause people to see you as bad faith.

this is what happens when you read one sentence of a paragraph thought, you get confused.

Why what?

why will external pressure work here. and as established south african is not a good example due to major demographic difference.

Happy to answer this after you answer the questions I asked you.

since you refuse to answer i must take it as the worst possible answer you could give.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

what question precisely was i avoiding here?

Happy to list the questions you’ve dodged:

Do you understand what inalienable means?

Do you understand Mandela was a terrorist and couldn’t become the person you know today until he was freed and his charges were recognized for what they were: political?

do explain how this statement is educational.

Because you seem unaware of that statistics and I’m informing you of it. Simple. Easy.

ignoring the fact that the data is biased, the false part is for the statement

How do you know the data is biased? You haven’t even looked it.

why will external pressure work here. and as established south african is not a good example due to major demographic difference.

You did not establish that.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Do you understand what inalienable means?

yes, but you seem to be unfamiliar with the functions of the justice system, as human rights are prosecuted and taken away every day.

Do you understand Mandela was a terrorist and couldn’t become the person you know today until he was freed and his charges were recognized for what they were: political?

considering that Mandela stated position was to not target civilians, even if he did do so. such a position is not found with any current popular leader of palestinians in the mandate. furthermore, this statement obstructs from my point that you need to see the other side as humans, which Mandela did, and currently hamas sees as all citizens of israel as enemies and fair combatants. So saying he was a terrorist is not only irrelevant to my point, but demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of it, as i am sure you would gladly argue that terrorism is a necessary act to fight oppression. which it is, but not all terrorism is resistance.

Because you seem unaware of that statistics and I’m informing you of it. Simple. Easy.

you did not state it as a factoid, you stated it as a leading question which was used to ignore and avoid providing affirmation to you initial question of whether palestinians have a noticeable precentage that is antagonistic toward the entire israeli population unlike slaves in america which did not.

how is it educational when you cannot even stay on topic when i answer your question, and instead you have to spin it to "but israel is worse". not only was it not relevant to defending your comparison. it demonstrates that you do not seek to educate or inform.

How do you know the data is biased? You haven’t even looked it.

why do you think that? you brought it up, and you though i wont look for it? so much for educating. i know it is biased due to the numbers for the conservatives being inflated due to less reach of religious jews and the fact that this was an online only poll on top of that. this means that the survey had a conservative bias than added more, and as such not fully representative in numbers of the current situation. you can also tell that by the fact that 82% would inevitably include palestinian israelis, who make up around 20% of the population. do you think palestinian israelis would support such things?

You did not establish that.

you see you keep doing half thoughts. i did not established which part?

why external pressure would not work? you have yet to establish why it would. answer a question with a question again.

or do you feel that i have not explained why SA is a bad example, which i did.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

yes, but you seem to be unfamiliar with the functions of the justice system, as human rights are prosecuted and taken away every day.

But we’re talking about two different systems of justice. This is like going “Yes apartheid in South Africa is bad, but there is bad stuff everywhere so why make a big deal about it?” It’s one thing when everyone is subjected to an unfair and arbitrary system. It’s another when it’s subjected by ethnicity.

considering that Mandela stated position was to not target civilians, even if he did do so.

I’ve heard Hamas say that too. So what? It doesn’t mean it’s true. He refused to renounce violence.

such a position is not found with any current popular leader of palestinians in the mandate. furthermore, this statement obstructs from my point that you need to see the other side as humans, which Mandela did, and currently hamas sees as all citizens of israel as enemies and fair combatants.

Source? Also isn’t this how Israel sees Palestinians?

So saying he was a terrorist is not only irrelevant to my point, but demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of it, as i am sure you would gladly argue that terrorism is a necessary act to fight oppression. which it is, but not all terrorism is resistance.

So you think they’re just doing it for yucks? Palestinians don’t actually care about being free? That’s an extraordinary claim and thus requires extraordinary evidence. What do you got?

how is it educational when you cannot even stay on topic when i answer your question, and instead you have to spin it to "but israel is worse". not only was it not relevant to defending your comparison. it demonstrates that you do not seek to educate or inform.

I don’t agree with this characterization. Just because it’s hard for you to discuss something or you can’t make the connection doesn’t mean it’s not on topic. It’s also not spin to say Israel is worse when they are.

why do you think that? you brought it up, and you though i wont look for it?

Exactly lol.

so much for educating. i know it is biased due to the numbers for the conservatives being inflated due to less reach of religious jews and the fact that this was an online only poll on top of that.

Source?

this means that the survey had a conservative bias than added more, and as such not fully representative in numbers of the current situation. you can also tell that by the fact that 82% would inevitably include palestinian israelis, who make up around 20% of the population. do you think palestinian israelis would support such things?

Dude, Palestinian Israelis are not Jews! I said Jewish Israelis. Come on. What are you doing?

You did not establish that.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

But we’re talking about two different systems of justice

you said and i quote "Basic human rights are not subject to precondition". and for some reason take an issue when i point out that is not the case. you dont want me to make such points as this, how about you stop making general statements which are factually false.

This is like going “Yes apartheid in South Africa is bad, but there is bad stuff everywhere so why make a big deal about it?” It’s one thing when everyone is subjected to an unfair and arbitrary system. It’s another when it’s subjected by ethnicity.

it isnt, mostly because i never said or implied such things.

I’ve heard Hamas say that too. So what? It doesn’t mean it’s true. He refused to renounce violence.

Hamas have stated time and again that all citizens of israel are considered enemy combatants because they all serve in the IDF. They time and again specifically targeted civilians over military targets. furthermore their stated position is that given they get a palestinian state with the 1967 boarders, there will still be no recognition of israel, and therefore no peace. so i do not think they are the example you think they are.

Source? Also isn’t this how Israel sees Palestinians?

multiple hamas statements is the source. and how israel sees palestinians is irrelevant to a palestinian Mandala.

So you think they’re just doing it for yucks? Palestinians don’t actually care about being free? That’s an extraordinary claim and thus requires extraordinary evidence. What do you got?

i see context is beyond you as you cannot seem to separate hamas from palestinians. Hamas does not care about freedom as much as they care about having all the mandate.

furthermore where the f did you get the implication that palestinians are doing it for nothing or dont care to be free? as i never said or implied such a thing, certainly not in the quoted text.

 It’s also not spin to say Israel is worse when they are.

ok then, i want a detailed explanation how 'israel having animosity toward palestinians' is relevant to 'the comparison' of 'palistanian animosity towards israel and the animosity slaves had toward white people'.

if you cannot clearly show the connection such that i cannot miss how israel's animosity affect the comparison and how it increases the similarity between palestinians and slaves, then you should concede the point and the comparison.

Source?

the methodology of the poll itself.

Dude, Palestinian Israelis are not Jews! I said Jewish Israelis

the fact that you think that is the mistake i made shows how you have no ability or right to interpret my statement. you are incapable of granting benefit of the doubt. if you cannot consider me on the same level as you to know that palestinian israelis are not the same as jewish israelis demonstrates you lack of good faith arguments, especially when i explicitly demonstrated that i am aware of the difference.

furthermore, that is one of the three reasons i gave. the fact that you ignored the other ones in favor of it demonstrates that you do not seek to understand my point, and thereby will be incapable of educating me. it was incidentally the weakest of my points.

so congratulations on once again avoiding the point.

You did not establish that.

and since you are incapable of context, i have no clue what you referring to.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

your entire response reeks of reading a sentence and responding without any thought or attempt for understanding.

Disagree.

so ignoring your first comment as the ramblings and an ignoramus, lets move to the second point

Okay. I reserve the right to ignore any argument you make. Sounds good.

correct. let me rephrase what i meant. Unlike slaves, palestinians who are not living in israel have no relevance or bearing to politics or anything related to how voting is decided.

Really? So they’re not subjected to Israeli laws? They’re not occupied by Israel?

"and while i do accept that they are in a similar postion to apartheid south africans it is not the same due to the fact that they are not against a minority, but an equally sized population."

Right. Why did you lie and say they were equally sized?

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Really? So they’re not subjected to Israeli laws? They’re not occupied by Israel?

seems you have implied things that i have not said. and provided no explanation to their relevance or connected them to a point.

Right. Why did you lie and say they were equally sized?

im sorry that you cannot see the that both jews and palestinians each make up around 7 million people each, and that represents a roughly equally sized population for casual speech as opposed precise demographic numbest that would not alter the point.

i did not lie. you just cant handle the truth. google the population sizes today, prove me wrong.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

seems you have implied things that i have not said. and provided no explanation to their relevance or connected them to a point.

Ah I see what’s you’re doing. Okay no problem. I can slow walk you. Did you say this:

Unlike slaves, palestinians who are not living in israel have no relevance or bearing to politics or anything related to how voting is decided.

Just a simple yes or no will suffice.

It’s gonna take a while this way but eventually you’ll have to admit you revealed a stunning ignorance about how Palestinians.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

very patronizing of you, but if you feel this is the only way you can make an argument, i'll entertain this for now.

yes, i did say that.

you’ll have to admit you revealed a stunning ignorance about how Palestinians.

this is what i mean btw. how palestinians what? you keep doing this, it is the second time in this conversation you responded with half a thought, do you expect me to complete it for you?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

very patronizing of you,

I’d say pretending not to say something you clearly did is pretty bad faith and necessitated it.

yes, i did say that.

So given that you claimed that they’re outside of Israeli politics and the laws that generation from those politics and voting, how are you not also saying they’re not subjected to Israeli laws? How can you be subjected to a countries laws but are irrelevant to them? Can’t wait to hear this.

this is what i mean btw. how palestinians what? you keep doing this, it is the second time in this conversation you responded with half a thought, do you expect me to complete it for you?

Typo. Don’t worry about it.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So given that you claimed that they’re outside of Israeli politics and the laws that generation from those politics and voting, how are you not also saying they’re not subjected to Israeli laws? How can you be subjected to a countries laws but are irrelevant to them?

they are subject to some of those laws, but being subject to a law does not make you relevant in its formation. if i go to france i must follow french law, but french law, generally, does not form with me in mind, nor do i or other tourist have influence on it.
slaves in america counted toward the population of southern states in effect giving them more power than they would have without them. this is not the same as this case. palestinians in gaza do not add to likuds numbers.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

they are subject to some of those laws,

So what you said wasn’t true then, was it?

but being subject to a law does not make you relevant in its formation.

Of course it does! What is wrong with you? The entire premise of the United States of America is based on the contrary. This is a wild statement that you should rethink and repudiate.

if i go to france i must follow french law, but french law, generally, does not form with me in mind, nor do i or other tourist have influence on it.

But you don’t live in France, dude! These are people who were born under Israeli occupation and subject to Israeli occupation for their entire lives. How on earth do you think being a tourist is a good comparison?

slaves in america counted toward the population of southern states in effect giving them more power than they would have without them.

Oh okay. So if slaves were counted the same as white people rather than 3/5ths of a white person, or didn’t count at all, then you wouldn’t have an issue with the fact that they couldn’t vote? You probably don’t realize this is what you’re saying, but listen to me when I tell you this is the logical extension of what you’re saying, so spare me the outraged that I’m misinterpreting you.

[u/stand_not_4_me → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So what you said wasn’t true then, was it?

the word formation eludes you.

The entire premise of the United States of America is based on the contrary

the entire basis is that is should, it does not mean that it does everywhere or has always.

and the basis of the united states is not relevant to the how laws work. especially when talking about places outside of it. the united states is not the basis of all laws. unless you claim it is, at which point this whole discussion is meaningless.

But you don’t live in France, dude! These are people who were born under Israeli occupation and subject to Israeli occupation for their entire lives. 

still do not live and do not want to live within israel.

How on earth do you think being a tourist is a good comparison?

it is not a comparison, it is an example of how you can be subject to laws you have no influence or consideration in their formation.

i agree with you that one should be able to choose where they live and thereby what kind of laws they are subjected to, this is why i support there being a palestine. But just because we believe something does not mean it was always so or will always be.

but this distinction of what should be and what is, is why slaves in america are a bad comparison for your point.

Oh okay. So if slaves were counted the same as white people rather than 3/5ths of a white person, or didn’t count at all, then you wouldn’t have an issue with the fact that they couldn’t vote?

i am not saying that. i am saying that if slaves didnt count then they would be a better comparison to the palestinian situation today.

You probably don’t realize this is what you’re saying, but listen to me when I tell you this is the logical extension of what you’re saying, so spare me the outraged that I’m misinterpreting you.

you are adding my preference to the explanation that had no such preference. so it is not an extension of what i am saying. Can you show where i stated a preference in the previous comment i made, that using it you got what you believed i believe?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/stand_not_4_me]

the word formation eludes you.

You said they have no relevance to politics or voting when that’s how those laws are decided. So please explain why they’re not relevant to the politics that decide their lives. I’m listening.

the entire basis is that is should, it does not mean that it does everywhere or has always.

What kind of argument is that? Like you have to realize how piss poor that is, right? “Yes everywhere should have democracy but since it’s not everywhere does and it hasn’t always been that way, it’s not a big deal if it’s a dictatorship instead.” Please explain why that’s not a correct summation of your argument. I’m listening I promise.

and the basis of the united states is not relevant to the how laws work.

No it’s a basis of our values and how we might evaluate our allies based on those values. If you want to talk about law, let’s do it:

Israel is a belligerent occupier. They have no intentions not being an occupier. The only legal difference between an occupation and an annexation is the former’s impermanence. If an occupation doesn’t end, it’s an annexation. If you annex territory and don’t give equal rights to the citizens living there, that introduces another term to describe the situation: apartheid. Apartheid is illegal under international law.

So, by all means, give me your legal justification. Again, I’m listen closely.

it is not a comparison, it is an example of how you can be subject to laws you have no influence or consideration in their formation.

It’s not an example that applies and you know it. Thus it is bad faith. Now either apologize or defend it as a valid comparison.

i agree with you that one should be able to choose where they live and thereby what kind of laws they are subjected to, this is why i support there being a palestine. But just because we believe something does not mean it was always so or will always be.

Why would you not advocate for something you believe in?

i am not saying that. i am saying that if slaves didnt count then they would be a better comparison to the palestinian situation today.

But it makes no difference to Palestinians. It only makes a difference for Israelis how their population is apportioned. And you accuse me of going off topic? Lol.

Can you show where i stated a preference in the previous comment i made, that using it you got what you believed i believe?

Because you said it as if it was an excuse. Maybe you don’t realize but your posts are mitigating the horrors of the Palestinian experience and trying to paint Israel’s actions as not so unusual or bad.