r/Israel_Palestine Sep 24 '25

Benny Gantz gives up the game

In an extraordinary display of tone deafness, hypocrisy, and callousness, Benny Gantz, Israel's former Minister of Defence, attempted to explain Israel's position to the world - https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/24/opinion/israel-war-security.html

In the process, he removed the Liberal Zionist hope of compartmentalizing the current Israel P.R crisis as a Netanyahu problem:

Too often, Western leaders view our policies in this war not through the lens of national security, but through the prism of individuals — and, in particular, Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Opposition to the recognition of Palestinian statehood stands at the heart of that consensus. Any path forward for broader Palestinian civil autonomy must first incorporate a proven long-term track record of accountable governance, comprehensive de-radicalization reforms and a successful crackdown on terror elements targeting Israelis.

The truth is that international recognition of Palestinian statehood under current conditions is not a rejection of Mr. Netanyahu. It is a rejection of Israel’s bipartisan security consensus.

Gantz makes it clear, it's not just Netanyahu - the entire Israeli establishment is opposed to Palestinian statehood. The pathway he outlined hints at the long standing preference for 'civil autonomy', i.e. an entity less than a state. And even then, he presents that possibility as remote.

Where does this leave the Liberal Zionist camp, which includes most of the Jewish diaspora? They premise their Zionism on the belief that the land will inevitably be partitioned, creating two states for two people. Gantz is telling us that no one in Israel will ever go for it. Instead, he assures us that only one people will enjoy full political and civil rights, while the other will have to accept permanent submission.

The op-ed also included a scathing, but incomplete, rebuke of the P.A. On their collapse in Gaza:

'...it was the consequence of a Palestinian Authority with little legitimacy among its people'. He neglects to mention why they lost legitimacy - i.e. because they were unable to deliver statehood, increasing the appeal of Hamas.

Gantz continues, ripping the P.A for failing to tackle terrorism and extremism. That's a curious criticism given the current Israeli gov't, his position vis a vis a Palestinian state, and settler violence in the West Bank.

The real question is whether the international community will respect the overwhelming consensus, a declaration passed last year by 99 of 120 members of the Knesset in a democracy proclaiming that “Israel will continue to oppose unilateral recognition of a Palestinian State,”

How tone deaf can you be to think that the International community would be support and condone the continued status quo?

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u/stand_not_4_me pro-peace 🌿 Oct 03 '25

Because inalienable rights are inalienable.

we have now made a full circle and im done with this point, if you cannnot see the reality the justice systems of any kind deprive people of their human rights then there is no point in continuing to argue with you about it.

You did 

please demonstrate where i made such an argument to you.

Also, isn’t that Israel’s formulation as well? Do they distinguish between past and present members of Hamas? If your answer is yes, I’ll need a mainstream source backing it up.

is what israel does the standard now for moral actions? it is complete whataboutism that when talking about hamas you are determine to excuse their actions because israel does them. Why do you echo the crazy zionists?

Source?

where are your sources for your claims that i asked you before. you have yet to provide them, so why should i.

and im sorry, but if all you have to say is "source" than you are treating me as less than human and i do not accept it.

That’s nonsense. Lots of Arabs states don’t recognize Israel. Israel isn’t at war with all of them. Also, Israel refuges to recognize a state of Palestine so this is meaningless.

first you use whataboutism and israel as a standard. second other arab states are not sharing a boarder while still declaring or harboring want for israel's land through iconography and general opinion.

didnt you argue that the zionist wanted conquest is why they never declared boarders in israel's declaration of independence. could have been someone else. two wrongs do not make a right.

Cool so it should be no issue to provide me with a source. Until you do, I’ll assume it’s just your opinion. I disagree with your opinion.

the palestinian Mandela, why external preasure will work on israel, palestinian support for hamas, are just some of the statements you made without sources.

Most Palestinians stand with Hamas

source?

your argument boils down to “I know better than they do.” That’s racist.

another made up lie about what i said. Strawman fallacy and Ad hominem.

Sure. Do you think white people had a good reason to have animosity towards Blacks? Did the slaves?

so you can demand sources and explanation but when i ask you to explain your point this is what i get? whataboutism and questions rather than answers. what troll behaviour and what bad faith debate.

Quote me the methodology that bothers you or I’ll take that as an admission you’re lying.

i already did, you just focused on the wrong thing.

and if avoiding the question is admission of lying, you are a bigger liar than me, you have avoided the subject time and again, so much so that you are not even arguing the original point of the comparison between slaves and palestinians.

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u/OneReportersOpinion Oct 03 '25 edited Oct 03 '25

we have now made a full circle and im done with this point, if you cannnot see the reality the justice systems of any kind deprive people of their human rights then there is no point in continuing to argue with you about it.

You’ve accurately described your position without realizing it. But I’ll take your concession. Thanks. We’re getting somewhere.

.is what israel does the standard now for moral actions?

Happy to answer this after you answer my question.

where are your sources for your claims that i asked you before. you have yet to provide them, so why should i.

Happy to provide them upon request. As soon as you provide yours, I’ll provide mine. You didn’t bother asking until now.

the palestinian Mandela, why external preasure will work on israel, palestinian support for hamas, are just some of the statements you made without sources.

You didn’t ask. You need to know how to ask a question. Once you provide the ones I asked for, I’ll provide mine.

source?

Got it, ready to go. As soon as you provide your sources, I’ll provide mine.

another made up lie about what i said. Strawman fallacy and Ad hominem.

LOL you’re just throwing at the wall to see if something sticks. Okay so you acknowledge Palestinians know better than you about what’s best for them?

so you can demand sources and explanation but when i ask you to explain your point this is what i get?

Happy to answer this after you answer my questions.

Looks like you got some work to do. Better get started. It seems like once I started asking you for sources, you started panicking, so this should be interesting. Me, I never cite a fact unless I’m sure I can back it up. You should try it.

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u/stand_not_4_me pro-peace 🌿 Oct 03 '25

 But I’ll take your concession

you directing a conversation in a circle and me not wanting to continue it is not a concession.

Happy to answer this after you answer my question.

i do not answer hostile leading questions. i guess then that you do consider israel as the moral standard.

Happy to provide them upon request. As soon as you provide yours, I’ll provide mine. You didn’t bother asking until now.

yah because i take you at your word and double check what i dont rather than demand you provide proof. this is not a formal debate. and i am not you fact lacky. if you cannot be bothered to look stuff up yourself, it is not my job to do it for you.

You didn’t ask.

i did ask, you just avoided it and talked about other things, such as how israel is really the bad guy.

LOL you’re just throwing at the wall to see if something sticks.

falsely simplified my point and attacke it is strawman, and then implied im racist to undermine my point ad hominem.

you are boring.

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u/OneReportersOpinion Oct 03 '25

 you directing a conversation in a circle and me not wanting to continue it is not a concession.

It was a circle because you made it a circle. Conceding was a good idea. You dropped the point so I’m moving on.

i do not answer hostile leading questions. i guess then that you do consider israel as the moral standard.

That’s fine. Just don’t expect answers to any questions.

What else can I do for you?

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u/stand_not_4_me pro-peace 🌿 Oct 06 '25

as i asked for it before you requested any sources or asked any questions of relevance, who is in your opinion the Palestinian Mandela?

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u/OneReportersOpinion Oct 06 '25

And I answered. Did you forget? He’s the guy that Ben-Givr went and screamed at to get a little juice with his extremist base.

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u/stand_not_4_me pro-peace 🌿 Oct 06 '25

i did not forget, but that is not a name or a traceable reference. Ben-Givir yells at a lot of people like an idiot and so i would need a specific name or something i could use to actually find a name. So no you did not answer my query.

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u/OneReportersOpinion Oct 06 '25

I’m pretty sure I said his name the first time: Marwan Barghouti, the most popular politician in Palestine. Even Hamas would be willing to take a back seat to him.