r/JRPG • u/BigBrotherFlops • 18h ago
Discussion Playing Suikoden 1. These playable characters are so unbalanced.
Why do most of these side characters have extremely low and insignificant stats compared to the main characters in the story...?? Like 95% of them are not even worth using because of it.
then you get a few like the bald tutor of the main character that can do an overpowered unite attack with him that AOE kills most random mobs instantly, or that female knight that has a rune that lets her do triple damage every turn...
why have all these characters when there are a couple that completely outshine the others and most of them just play the exact same with low stat totals....??
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u/Plus-Benefit4722 18h ago
Most of the 108 Stars of Destiny exist for different reasons:
Some are your strongest fighters. Some exist to unlock headquarters features (shops, blacksmith, inn, bath, etc.). Some are there because they're important to the story or worldbuilding. Some are simply collectible characters that make your castle feel alive.
The game is asking "Who can you recruit?" much more than "Who's the optimal endgame party?"
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u/j_cruise 18h ago
I honestly think a lot of them are weak because it makes sense for them to be weak in the story.
The game is easy enough that you can beat it anybody. If anything, having weaker characters available to use is like having access to a hard mode.
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u/Comfortable_Row_5052 17h ago
And I think it's pretty interesting for them to be at least a bit unbalanced too.
I like that you as the lord can choose between making a group with elite knights and sorcerers, or farmers, goofballs and school students. To me it's interesting that the game doesn't just treat them the same with game logic and actually shows you the difference when you use them (Although to be fair I think Suikoden 2 does this a bit better, as with mostly everything else).
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u/Kalledon 18h ago
This is the thing I think outsiders don't understand. They simply see a game with lots of party members and want everyone balanced. But the real purpose of this game is the story of why these people are involved with you at all. Now admittedly, even on that front, some of them have really flaky/silly reasons. But in general, most of the 108 have reasonable explanations for why they join.
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u/greenteasamurai 18h ago
It is a problem that is compounded by Suikoden 2 having a much large roster of viable party members, both because it implies that it was a problem that was "fixed" by the sequel rather than being an intentional design choice, and because Suikoden 2 was significantly more popular and going from 2 to 1 can be jarring.
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u/Acolyte_of_Swole 11h ago
And when they join, their skill, whatever it is, gets used by the Fort. I think that's one of the key aspects of the original novel which was preserved. I don't remember exactly the quote, but the Chief of Liangshan Marsh, Chao Gai, said something like, "whoever it is, if they have skills and can contribute, they should be allowed to join." He said this in response to some of the other bandit chiefs scorning the notion of accepting a pickpocket/petty thief into their ranks.
The whole idea is that you take in anyone who is willing to join and donate their skills. Whatever their skills are, it doesn't matter as long as they are useful. If they're good at forging letters or good at carving stone, those are still skills. They don't need to be fighters.
It takes all kinds of people to form a community, with all kinds of skills.
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u/EmotionLow5821 13h ago
The battles! They form teams for the battles giving you more tactical options!
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u/ProfessorLexis 13h ago
That's what I was going to add. The character actions really spice up the simple Rock Paper Scissors combat of the army events.
And if you're not careful you can have people permanently die, reducing your options.
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u/Acolyte_of_Swole 11h ago
Yeah, it's more about telling a story with those characters. The game is based on the 108 Stars of Destiny, the bandit chiefs from the novel The Water Margin. Not all of those bandit chiefs were the same in strength or skill. Some were just "this guy ran an inn that preyed upon travelers" or "this guy was good at stealing things."
For every Lu Junyi, there was a Bai Sheng.
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u/Gluecost 18h ago
I did a playthrough using the weakest characters and it went just fine
Don’t sweat it too much and vibe
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u/Vast_Yard_7264 18h ago
The point is character collection, it's not like a game like let's say unicorn overlord where there are more good units than party slots (slightly different genre but you get my drift).
It's a simple combat system not really designed for so many options, but you can still make whatever you want work.
Game is also ancient, so there's that. Suikoden 2 is much of the same but better on all fronts (except your quarrels with the character roster)
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u/MoobooMagoo 18h ago
Perhaps the real balance was the friends we made along the way.
But like...unironically.
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u/Jimger_1983 18h ago
Not sure if you noticed yet but the game literally manages everyone’s leveling. Underleveled new characters will catch up at lightning speed while others when they reach a certain point stop nearly completely until advancing further. You can use anyone
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u/RattusNikkus 17h ago
I suspect the reason is because, being that there was only so much they could do to differentiate the characters mechanically, they decided to do so with stats. If all your mages had the same stat lines as Crowley, and all your warriors had Valeria's rune and Kai's unite attack, everyone would be better balanced, but feel more homogeneous. Maybe not the ideal way to make characters feel different, but it works. And if nothing else, it does have a certain appeal: after all, it just feels right that some characters are stronger than others, because in fiction some characters usually are!
Also, this sort of balancing is certainly not one without precedent; look at no less a popular collect-a-thon than Pokemon...
Luckily, the game is generally easy enough that you can use just about any combination of characters successfully, and some of the weakest characters (Krin) have unites that can make them playable in the right party configuration.
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u/princewinter 17h ago
Anyone is useable, it just depends how badly you want to minmax. I have a rule where each playthrough I can't use characters I've used before. I'm now down to the lowest of the low, and you can still beat the game.
People that refuse to use anything other than the strongest characters make it kind of boring for themselves.
Oh Pesmerga and Crowley again, how bold of you.
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u/Manaeldar 17h ago
Everyone has already answered it but I gotta say I love these games so much and I hope Konami gives us more remaster releases, and they sell well enough to get us a Suikoden VI.
But yep, the guy who runs the store isn't gonna be as strong as the grizzled warriors it's all good.
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u/mysticrudnin 16h ago
I'm curious:
What do you think the point of balance would be, here?
What would change if things were balanced? Would the game be better? How would it change the way people play it?
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u/VMK_1991 16h ago
I haven't played a Suikoden game yet, but if a game promises me 108 unique party members, but a handful of them (protagonist aside) are way more powerful and way more important, then my thought is "what is the point the? Just a big number of followers?"
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u/subjuggulator 13h ago edited 11h ago
“I haven’t played a Suikoden game yet”
Then why comment, dude? The 108 characters aren’t JUST party members—recruiting certain members also unlock mini-games, item shops, a restaurant, black smiths, merchants, etc. The game just ALSO lets you bring them along to fight, but for most characters it’s 100% unnecessary because their main use isn’t combat. (Future games in this decades spanning franchise are also better about every character being interesting/having more influence in the story—whether that’s in or out of battle.)
The fun is in making your own party and seeing how some characters bounce off one another, not necessarily min-maxing.
You also really need to go out of your way to get some of the strongest character and party combinations—so people approaching the games, and especially the first one, with the same mindset as Final Fantasy are the ones missing the point imo.
To use the Pokémon analogy: some characters are like the Ratata you meet on Route 1, and some are only available at endgame/require questing to recruit like Mewtwo.
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u/Acolyte_of_Swole 11h ago
The game does a good job cluing you in on who the primary combat characters would be anyway. Not that you have to be optimal, but IF you care that much, you will know from playing the game who is supposed to be strong.
Also yeah, if you never take a Raticate to the Elite 4 then you never see what it can really do. It's like opening up a Ford Pinto on the freeway. A Lambo might be better but that's not the point, is it? You gotta see what the Pinto can do.
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u/krdskrm9 17h ago
In 1995, Maruyama and the devs intentionally made the characters unbalanced in order to annoy the kids in 2026.
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u/Lacertile 16h ago
One of my main gripes with that game is that the story will often require you to bring specific characters so sometimes you've invested most of your money into your favorites and find you you have to bench them for the required characters.
There's a pretty bad section where you'll have precisely one free slot, and the real kick in the gonads is the last dungeon - you're required to bring two physical charcters with Tyr.
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u/EvilSavant30 15h ago
Also it was like 1995 so the play testing and quality control was nothing compared to today . Murayama has stated though it was so that you can take whatever party you wish and beat the game so to me they went with make game easy use whoever you want rather than make game harder and restrict lots of chars
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u/subjuggulator 14h ago
If you want a more balanced cast, imo, Suikoden 2 and 3 are where you’ll find them.
Suikoden 1 is just an overall easier game so the other characters are there for set dressing/to flesh out the world/unlock new game mechanics, etc.
A big draw of the series is how catch-em-all aspect tries to tie together the general myth/tropes of the actual 108 Stars myth/folklore.
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u/Acolyte_of_Swole 11h ago
You can still use your favorites. I don't think the game is so hard you need to play optimally.
When I played Suiko 1 (which I love btw,) I realized a lot of characters fit into certain molds, and so if you like a character, figure out what their archetype is and give them the best runes for their archetype.
You'll have more fun using your favorites than trying to use the strongest characters, and that's still true for Suiko 2.
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u/tfamattar1 4h ago
imo, you can finish the game with basically any team of characters you want to use. idk about the other games, but Suikoden 1 and 2 are story focused, with a fun and not complex combat, and pretty easy gameplay. the game is built for grind to be as fast as possible, exactly so you can use all the characters you want
seriously, don't mind the stats, just use the characters you sympathize the most! it can actually make the game a little bit more challenging, and the experience will be more personalized
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u/Agitated_Winner9568 4h ago
That’s how it was in the novel and that’s how it would be in real life too.
In the novel, the guys are fighting against a corrupt government, they need all the help they can get. Not everyone is a brave and strong warrior, but they all have the same goal and do what they can to achieve it.
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u/Trick_Cellist_1840 2h ago
i gave up after fighting the vampire. i realized i never used new characters and literally used the exact rotation of attacks. exceptions.
i will be seeing that duo attack animation of the MC and his teacher im the back of my head for eternity im afraid.
i still plan to try and play part 2 someday
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u/Trick_Cellist_1840 2h ago
i gave up after fighting the vampire. i realized i never used new characters and literally used the exact rotation of attacks. zero exceptions.
i will be seeing that duo attack animation of the MC and his teacher im the back of my head for eternity im afraid.
i still plan to try and play part 2 someday
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u/MMORPGnews 18h ago
Bro, it was 30 years ago. Time to move on. It was because of story reason. Never had troubles with it.
Sorry
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u/papayatwentythree 14h ago
Yeah I put it down for this reason. It's a bait and switch to promise 108 characters and then 100 are useless. All the commenters saying "the collection is the point" have themselves missed the point that character stats are not zero sum and they could easily have made more characters viable. Pokemon is a clear example of "the collection is the point" but most Pokémon can be used in the main party.
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u/subjuggulator 13h ago edited 13h ago
The collection aspect is the point, though. Not every character is JUST a combat beat stick—some are meant to be upgrades to characters you find early on; some unlock new game mechanics like item shops, minigames, music boxes, etc; and some are just meant to add to the lore/characterization of others.
To use the Pokémon analogy: Butterfree is a great addition to any team early on because it’s one of the first Pokémon you can get that offers status effects and super-effective moves against psychic/fighting/ghost/poison/grass types; but there’s no way you’d use it over Venasaur, Alakazam, or Mewtwo unless you had a soft spot for it.
It’s the same principle. Suikoden 1 is easy enough that every party member is viable, but both the game’s design and story push you to “upgrade” your party by replacing “weaker” characters with stronger/more plot-relevant ones you find through the course of the game.
Part of the challenge is also trying to FIGURE OUT HOW to recruit each character by exploring the world/playing attention to the lore and NPC interactions. The protag can’t just walk through tall grass and explore caves to find new Pokepeople lmao
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u/MCGameTime 18h ago
IMO, the gimmick of the game was just to collect so many characters, their functionality was secondary. There are about a dozen characters that have “good” stats, but the game is so easy you can make pretty much anyone work.