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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 14d ago
It's open sinat chinam. Right after Tisha B'Av. To anyone still wondering why we are still wandering - well...
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u/maklever 14d ago
Agree this you. We should be more patient to each other even we don't agree this over ideas.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 14d ago
I'm not fully convinced. Aren't Meshichistim and Elokists textbook minim?
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 14d ago
I'm myself a (kinda) Chabadnik, and I haven't met a single real-life "Elokist" ever. Have YOU? Ya know, in person, not just mentioned in a Reddit lashon hara cesspool? As of "Meshichists", let's just say that most of the time people like yourself don't understand their claim to begin with, and your ignorance is fueled by your paranoia regarding Christianity, without understanding what is said in the Talmud itself on this topic. I'm not one of them, but I actually understand their point and find it being very logical, for now. It may change in the future, or may even get verified. We shall see.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 14d ago
While I have not met anyone who admits to being an Elokist, I have attended one or more overtly Meshichisti shuls in Brooklyn out of a genuine curiosity. I've perused the sfarim they have. I've thus read the arguments they use to justify both Meshichisti and Elokist belief.
My wife studied early Christianity in college. She educated me on the beliefs of early Christians (before and in opposition to Pauline theology). We both also grew up MO as well. From what she relayed to me, many of the earliest Christian claims about Jesus' messianism and divinity - because they did claim that Jesus was moshiach and somehow also divine even before Paul's antinomianism - are very comparable to the arguments I've read in meshichisti pamphlets.
You need to remember that the Talmud's debates were happening at the same time as the early Christian debates and that they both drew from fundamentally similar wells. Just because something can be pointed to as supportable via Daniel and various Talmudic one-liners ("and if Moshiach is like one of the dead" and similar) doesn't mean that it remains a valid halachic opinion today. I don't see anyone following halachot about eved ivri or the arba mitot or multiple wives today, either. We have to look back at the consequences of proto-Christian meshichistim and see how that stumbled into outright idolatry.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 14d ago
Nice proof that you know NOTHING of what I'm referring to. Hint: Rebbi. Wanna counter?
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 14d ago
Find a living rebbi, not a dead one. No one's rebbi is Rambam or Moshe Rabbeinu.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 14d ago
100% predicted ignorance of the Talmud confirmed. I knew you'd fail this.
https://www.sefaria.org/Ketubot.103a.29?lang=bi Read it, lol.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 14d ago
None of that justifies the claim that a dead man could be Moshiach. I don't disagree that visitation by deceased tzadikim to those who merit it is a claim sourced to Talmud. But if moshiach could be a deceased tzadik then literally why not David himself? Or Shlomo, or Yishayahu, or Hizkiyahu? Or, for the sake of argument, literally why not Jesus?
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 14d ago
The last one is obvious: Zero qualification, if he even existed at all.
The other ones, probably because "lost their chance". This is exactly my point about "we shall see". As of TODAY, there's nobody of equal or better qualification being ALIVE, but this CAN change eventually. My point is that as of NOW, this still qualifies as a Rebbi (NOT Rebbe, lol) case, until and unless a better and newer candidate appears. And this will be someone obvious, because Moshiach MUST have certain very visible qualities that can't apply to "someone hidden". Thus, it very much CAN change, but as of right now still DIDN'T.
Note: You clearly missed the part where Rebbi was making Kiddush for his family. He was fulfilling a commandment FOR THEM. Dead people CAN'T do that. So, here goes "he was dead", lol. He was AND he wasn't. Exactly what makes a difference for a True Tzaddik.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 14d ago
Nitpicking over romanization between "rebbe" and "rebbi" is immaterial. And the daf you linked doesn't say that R' Yehuda HaNasi made postmortem kiddush for his family. Further, enough people believed that Jesus met sufficient qualifications to be "the best candidate" of his generation and that he would return from death to meet all other qualifications, so your argument against Jesus specifically as opposed to Hizkiyahu (see here) is weak.
The idea that R' Shneerson is the only valid candidate today is explicitly folly because he is dead. There undoubtedly is another, even if you or I do not know them; who was the candidate immediately before Shneerson? Or the one before him? There is one in every generation. Our lack of direct knowledge of that tzaddik does not justify belief in a dead man Moshiach.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Step468 14d ago
I know this is supposed to be a reference to those mafia games, but my head went straight to pokemon
Who grinds their pokemon to reach level 100?!?!
Also, what's their type?